Obama Admin Sues Pro-Life Sidewalk Counselor Over Misdemeanor

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I have no doubt that this work will continue, and I’m glad you said that “countless lives have been saved”: no one knows how many - or how few - women have changed their minds about termination because of a few sidewalk prayer offerings. They may leave during Thursday’s prayers and return the following Monday and no one praying Thursday would know it. If they enter the building and leave, Maybe they have changed their own minds and that those praying are taking credit. It may be God working, it may be that they don’t have the cash. We’ll never know.
*
“We show them God’s love and mercy in a very real and tangible way,”* you say, after they have terminated their pregnancies and feel remorse. What do you do, there, on the sidewalk, to help them? Do you give them rides to church? Do you give them rosaries? Do you give them food? Do you follow up? Do you keep anonymous statistics?

**Many abortion facilities ultrasound the fetuses and the mother has a choice to view the screen or not. Most choose not to.
**
gen
This is an outright lie. Planned Parenthood would NEVER show a woman the ultrasound and in fact, it is used only to show the doctor where the baby is and how old/big it is. Showing a woman the ultrasound results in no abortion, which would ruin their business model.

Why are you arguing AGAINST pro-lifers and FOR abortion clinics? You don’t sound much like a Catholic to me. Oh, wait, I guess you do sound like Nancy Pelosi and her ilk.
 
What is unfortunate here is that some or many Catholics who seem to be supporting this suit are unaware that the law does not work the other way around. I was at an abortuary where the lawyer for the slaughter house waved a piece of paper in the face of one of our brothers, when he was in full habit. It’s not as if she did not know that he was a religious. She waved the paper less than two inches from his nose to keep him from seeing a couple enter the clinic and at the same time that she waved this paper she shouted at him, “Don’t you have any altar boys to bother today?” The police and other bystanders did noting, because such action is not illegal. Looked like harrassment to me. 🤷

Another time we were at another slaughter house run by Planned Parenthood and one of the employees stood in front of a bishop, who was wearing his cassock, to block his sign and that’s not considered illegal. She knew who he was. He was across the street. She walked across and blocked the view, but that’s not illegal.

The way that the law is worded is to protect free access to the “clinics”. It does not protect the personal space of those who come to pray and to try to help these couples. It’s time that people in this country realized that the laws are being manipulated to protect murder, not to protect justice.

Moving someone’s arm out of your way so that you can talk to another person or hand them a piece of paper may be illegal, but how about waving a paper in front of the face of a religious and shouting an obscenity at him? Shouldn’t that be illegal? Shouldn’t it be illegal to block someone’s sign? Would the Black movement, the Jewish movement, the women’s movement, or the gay movement tolerate such treatment? I doubt it. There would be law suits flying and the media would be outraged.

It’s time that pro-life people became outraged too. This month is the time to do it. There are two major marches coming up on the anniversary of Roe vs Wade, one in Washington and the other in San Fco. If people can’t make it to either coast, they can organize and get permits to hold such marches in their home towns.

If we’re going to protect rights, let’s protect everyone’s rights. We have a constitutional right to gather peacefully. Peacefully does not just mean that we not bother others. It also means that others not bother us.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
When the Day of Judgement comes, how many people will the FACE Act safely conduct into everlasting damnation in the fires of Hell?
 
Your profile says that you are Catholic. But your language is confusing. Let me show you what I mean.
I have no doubt that this work will continue, and I’m glad you said that “countless lives have been saved”: no one knows how many - or how few - women have changed their minds about **termination **because of a few sidewalk prayer offerings.
It’s not termination. It’s abortion or murder. Termination of pregnancy is nothing more than linguistic engineering by the pro-abortion lobby. Don’t let them draw you into their language.
They may leave during Thursday’s prayers and return the following Monday and no one praying Thursday would know it. If they enter the building and leave, Maybe they have changed their own minds and that those praying are taking credit. It may be God working, it may be that they don’t have the cash. We’ll never know.
Do you believe in the power of prayer? One does not have to pray on the very day that a parent changes his or her mind about murdering his or her unborn child. The power of prayer extends beyond time and space. Yes, I would credit the power of prayer, so does the Church.
“We show them God’s love and mercy in a very real and tangible way,”* you say, after they have terminated their pregnancies and feel remorse. What do you do, there, on the sidewalk, to help them? Do you give them rides to church? Do you give them rosaries? Do you give them food? Do you follow up? Do you keep anonymous statistics?
Actually, the Catholic Church runs the largest support and healing network in this coiuntry. It provides such programs such as Project Rachel, other healing and counseling services free of charge, financial support up to one year, and if they have other children or become pregnant again, we also provide for their children: food, clothing, cribs, car seats, strollers, medical care, pampers, baby bottles, nursing classes, first aid training, and everything that they will need to care for their children and themselves.

If the post-abortive parent (father or mother) needs support, he or she can walk into any Catholic pro-life center and receive free counseling for as long as it takes. I do this for several hundred men a year. I know what I’m talking about. I run around three very large counties from place to place to provide these services to men. There are others who provide the same services to women, not to mention our network of pregnancy and family centers around the country. Yes, we keep statistics. There is a network set up for that purpose.
Many abortion facilities ultrasound the fetuses and the mother has a choice to view the screen or not. Most choose not to.
That is inaccurate. In some states there are laws that discourage the parents from seeing the monitor before the procedure begins. Planned Parenthood does not offer that option either. They are not bound to do so. The mother and father must ask for it.

Take for example the State of Florida. Last year, one of the proposals that crossed the Governor’s desk was a law that would require all abortuaries to offer the option to see the sonagram before beginning the abortion. The Governor refused to sign the bill. He said that he would not impose moral options on healthcare workers who provide reproductive care for women. When did abortion become medical care? As a result, the abortuaries in Florida are not bound to offer this option. In other states there are laws that say that such an offer is coercion; therefore, it cannot be exercised. One governor said that he would not force clinics to offer this option, because it would cause more pain for the women who were already suffering. He didn’t even dignify these women by calling them pregnant mothers, just suffering women, not mothers in crisis pregnancies, which would be more appropriate. This is another form of linguistic engineering.

Most women who come to post-abortion healing tell you that they were never offered the option to look at the screen. One argument that was used by a network of abortion providers was that they could not afford to purchase monitors that would allow the mother’s to look. The problem is that the monitors are already in the room, because the physician uses it to perform the procedure. All they have to do is to turn it toward the mother. They don’t have to purchase a second monitor.

Catholics, beware. Do not get too comfortable with the language of the pro-abortion lobby. An entire way of thinking begins when you change the wording. Let’s call it what it is. It’s an abortion, not a termination of a pregnancy. A termination of a pregnancy can happen many ways, including abortioin, but it can also happen with labor and delivery.

It’s not an option to view the sonagram. It’s an offer that is never made. An option exists only when the offer is extended to the person. Let’s look at this financially. If I stand to lose several hundred dollars if someone changes their mind, why would I take that chance? As long as the law does not require me to do so, I’m not about to ask someone to look at their baby before I kill him or her. I may lose a customer. Abortuaries are a business, not a charity.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
From the link :

FBI and Obama administration officials provided participants with an 84-page document entitled “Resource Guide: Violence Against Reproductive Health Care Providers”

What reproductive ***health ***care…?.. The mother leaves, carrying with her psychological, spiritual and physical damage, and the child is obliterated - in some cases, physically pulverised… nothing healthy about it !

I wonder what would’ve happened if the sidewalk counselor had convinvced the expectant mother to reconsider, regardless of the arm … probably wouldn’t be an issue.

Prayer…the “power of prayer” … the only solution.
 
This is an outright lie. Planned Parenthood would NEVER show a woman the ultrasound and in fact, it is used only to show the doctor where the baby is and how old/big it is. Showing a woman the ultrasound results in no abortion, which would ruin their business model.

Why are you arguing AGAINST pro-lifers and FOR abortion clinics? You don’t sound much like a Catholic to me. Oh, wait, I guess you do sound like Nancy Pelosi and her ilk.
"Many abortion facilities ultrasound the fetuses and the mother has a choice to view the screen or not. Most choose not to." THIS IS NOT AN OUTRIGHT LIE. I did NOT specify Planned Parenthood. I said “MANY ABORTION FACILITIES”.

Showing a woman an ultrasound often leads to abortion, in the case of physical anomalies.

Once again, NOT CATHOLIC. I have a catholic world view, not a Roman Catholic, Latin Rite view. Please, put down the gun.

gen
 
From the link :

FBI and Obama administration officials provided participants with an 84-page document entitled “Resource Guide: Violence Against Reproductive Health Care Providers”

What reproductive ***health ***care…?.. The mother leaves, carrying with her psychological, spiritual and physical damage, and the child is obliterated - in some cases, physically pulverised… nothing healthy about it !

I wonder what would’ve happened if the sidewalk counselor had convinvced the expectant mother to reconsider, regardless of the arm … probably wouldn’t be an issue.
**
Prayer…the “power of prayer” … the only solution.**
You don’t vote?

gen
 
" In some states there are laws that discourage the parents from seeing the monitor before the procedure begins."

Laws do not discourage. They either require or prohibit.

gen
 
Disingenuous? No.

gen
What or who do you stand for, the unborn child or a law that allows for that which is morally illegitimate?

Should the moral citizens of any nation expend equal energy defending a law that allows access to an abortuary as they would defending the life of the child who is going to be murdered at that abortuary?

Isn’t there a difference between obstructing free passage of a mother who is walking into an abortuary and moving an escort’s arm out of your way?

Is there a moral flaw in such an action?

Does such an action violate a natural right, such as the right to have your mother know that you’re alive inside of her and that there are other options?

Can such an action, moving someone’s arm, in order to inform a woman that she IS a mother about to kill her child be legitimately criminalized or is this just a law to discourage people from communicating with the mother?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act

I do not understand how this is constitutional.

It goes against the rights of free speech and free assembly.

Sidewalk counselors are normally on public sidewalks.
 
The problem is that we have to take a stand. Sometimes you can justifiably support a civil law without compromising a moral law. But that’s not always the case.

This is an example of one. Let’s look at the facts as we know them. There can be more that we do not know.

The counselor moved the arm of the escort. It does not say that he was aggressive or tried to do harm to the escort.

The counselor wanted to get some information to the mother who was entering the abortuary. It does not say that he was obstructing her passage.

Should the counselor have touched the escort? No. Was the action anything different from what any spontaneous action on anyone’s part? No. Someone blocked his access to the mother and he sponteaneously moved the person’s arm out of the way. Many of us would have done the same thing and not have though about it, because no harm was intended to either the escort or the mother.

Conclusion, the law is being applied to a spontaneous human behavior that did not intend to do harm and did not do harm. The question becomes, why? The answer is as I said above. I learned, from a father who did this for a living for the Dept of State, that laws were often written and enforced to dissuade and discouraged, more often than to defend innocents and protect rights. The method is simple. You identify something as a right, that no one else would think to argue about, such as access to reproductive healthcare. Who’s going to argue with that? But what you have in mind is to discourage others from interfering with abortions. If truth be told, we have never needed laws to protect people’s rights to access healthcare facilities. Only nut jobs attempt to stop people from entering healthcare facilities. That can be taken care of under harassment laws, which are already in the book. So, . . . when you create a specific law for access to clinics that offer reproductive healthcare, what services are you actually protecting? What services would people have a problem with? The answer: abortion.

What is the purpose of such a law? To discourage people from interfering with abortions. This law works just as the nuclear arms issue worked during the Cold War. No one planned to use them. But having them on both sides discouraged anyone from seriously thinking about it. Yes, laws do discourage, because they threaten people.

This law does not simply say that women have a right to enter a clinic. It also carries a penalty for those who interfere. The first part of the law is really unnecessary. No one has ever questioned the right of a woman to obtain reproductive healthcare. Why pass the law unless you wanted to tag on the penalty? This is the part that is meant to discourage or even threaten.

Now comes the question. When such a law is applied to a person such as the pro-life worker in this case, is it being applied with honesty? Did the pro-life worker violate the woman’s constitutional right to healthcare?

If we think like the abortionists do, then we would agree, because they consider abortion healthcare. The problem with agreeing with them is that pregnancy is not a disease and abortion is not a cure. Even when the child has a handicapping condition, the pregnancy itself is not a disease. Therefore, abortion is still not a cure.

If we think rationally, a woman who approaches an abortuary is not seeking reproductive healthcare. She is going there with the intent and mission to allow someone to kill her child.

Now we have people on these threads who are defending the law over the right of the child to be protected by the pro-life worker.

Sorry, but according to natural law, the rights of the unborn child trump the rights of the escort not to have his or her arm touched. The escort was not hurt or threatened in any way. The act was a knee-jerk reaction not the part of the pro-life counselor, which could have happened in any situation and would have been blown off.

Think of the number of times that you go to a voting site and are met at the door by members of both parties all wanting to speak to you and all wanting to give you a flyer or some such thing. Are they interfering with your access? Are they annoying? Sometimes. Is their presence enough to pass laws about free access to voting sites? No. We already have laws that protect the right to vote, just as we have laws that protect the right to healthcare.

This was a law suit brought on because the issue was abortion, not access to healthcare.

Moral human beings need to remember, there are times when the law is immoral or when the law is moral, but its application is immoral, because it’s being manipulated.

Let us not get caught up in the rhetoric of the pro-abortion and pro-choice people. They have many good lawyers behind them who are excellent at rhetoric.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
The purpose of an escort is to protect and secure the movements of the individual to whom the escort is assigned. This would include obstructing the movements, well-meaning or not (for who would know?), of those in close proximity to the person being escorted. An escort’s responsibility is to defend his or her subject from any peripheral disturbance. If the young protester physically moved the arm of the escort after the escort had purposefully placed in in position to protect the escorted, then the protester is in defiance of the FACE Act, whether one agrees with the FACE Act or not.

If the government chooses to make an example of him, I endorse it. He will probably not have to suffer any further disciplinary action, but he has served to teach others that even those in prayer, those with “good intentions”, those whose consciences tell them to interfere with a choice made by a stranger, are not above the law.

gen
 
You don’t vote?

gen
Take a look at where I live.

In 2008, my country’s governor general (who is appointed- not voted for) awarded Canada’s highest civilian honour to the man most responsible for legalizing abortion here ( he accomplished this **by breaking the existing law **… now they want to call him a hero).

Morgentaler was awarded the Order of Canada for his work in the field of (ahem) “reproductive health alternatives for women”, and among the thousands of abortions he performed, he almost never did “follow-ups”.

Indeed I vote, and I pray for leaders of government too. I even lead others in these same prayers

Now I don’t know where you live, but if you can’t see the importance of prayer in this present world of ours where 22% of all Americans in the womb are aborted daily, and when the current President they "voted" for says, publicly if his daughters “made a mistake” ie - got pregnant, he didn’t want them being “punished with a baby” then I don’t see how anything else I say would be of too much value to you.

Maybe if you were to read the stories here and here you might have a less restricted view of who the real heroes are in this war and how persistent prayer always bears much fruit. It might even give you an idea of just how great God’s Mercy is.
 
I have no gripe with prayer. I find it a useful tool, especially when I’m praying for a resolution to a personal situation (i.e., one in which I am personally involved) or when the prayer is for someone else. I see how sidewalk protesters can have an effect on patients, on facility staff, and particularly on themselves and their own need to be heard. I don’t give a hoot if they pray all day and night on the sidewalk outside the abortion clinic: more power to them if they have that kind of stamina. But let one of them reach out to emphasize his or her point and put a hand on a patient or escort and I am quick to find fault with their intrusion. I also will not tolerate that lowbrow “baby-killer” stuff that occasionally makes the news. I do not consider a graphic photograph of an aborted fetus a prayer. I consider it a judgment and an insult to the patient’s right to choose what to do with her pregnancy.

But prayer? Prayer is good.

gen
 
Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act

I do not understand how this is constitutional.

It goes against the rights of free speech and free assembly.

Sidewalk counselors are normally on public sidewalks.
You have to be very careful about touching anyone. Or obstructing anyone. We have to be above question. Yes, we can offer our literature but we cannot block the women from going in. I have been threatened, for just offering literature. One woman taking a young girl in to Planned Parenthood said, “If you don’t leave us alone I will take care of you later.” But we cannot respond. We just have to stand by and pray.
 
I have no gripe with prayer. I find it a useful tool, especially when I’m praying for a resolution to a personal situation (i.e., one in which I am personally involved) or when the prayer is for someone else. I see how sidewalk protesters can have an effect on patients, on facility staff, and particularly on themselves and their own need to be heard. I don’t give a hoot if they pray all day and night on the sidewalk outside the abortion clinic: more power to them if they have that kind of stamina. But let one of them reach out to emphasize his or her point and put a hand on a patient or escort and I am quick to find fault with their intrusion. I also will not tolerate that lowbrow “baby-killer” stuff that occasionally makes the news. I do not consider a graphic photograph of an aborted fetus a prayer. I consider it a judgment and an insult to the patient’s right to choose what to do with her pregnancy.

But prayer? Prayer is good.

gen
Hi, Genvievelives: I like the name you have chosen for yourself and especially poignant on this particular thread as we are talking about life and death. You live and your mom did not think that her reproductive health could be best served by having you pulled out of her womb piece by piece for her convenience or in her misguided attempt to solve a life problem by resorting to violence. You consider facing the truth of what abortion is as an insult to the “patient’s right to choose” to kill her own baby. I am guessing you are a healthcare worker, perhaps even in an abortion mill, since you refer to these women as patients. All women who have participated in this violence have to pay a price I am so sorry to say. All those who have lost a loved one - a child, a grandchild, a sister or brother that the world will never know. Millions of babies have been killed and billions are affected forever. Yes, we need to pray, on our knees, at home, in church and on the streets in front of these horrible places. God has led you to this particular website for a reason. I pray that you will consider some of the things you learn here and pray about them yourself, asking for the light of the Holy Spirit. We are all praying for you, too.
 
Back in the 1950’s civil rights protesters used to ‘sit-in’ at lunch counters where blacks were not allowed. These were demonstrators for civil rights, and it prevented those establishments from conducting normal business. Most of those who participated in sit-ins were arrested. But I’m sure the lunch counter owners would have found a “Freedom of Access to Lunch Counters” law to be useful.
 
I also will not tolerate that lowbrow “baby-killer” stuff that occasionally makes the news.
That’s unfortunate, because that’s exactly what is happening. A baby is being killed. Can you find a better term for it?
I do not consider a graphic photograph of an aborted fetus a prayer.
It’s not meant to be a prayer. It’s an illustration of a fact.
I consider it a judgment
It is meant to be a judgment. I judges an action that is immoral and unjust.
and an insult to the patient’s right to choose what to do with her pregnancy.
Unfortunately, no one has the right to choose to terminate the life of an innocent human being and no legislature has the right to legalize such a choice. Such a legislation is an abuse of power. We end up having to pass judgment on two actions:
  1. The killing of a baby.
  2. The State’s attempt to imose it’s will over God’s will. You have God condemning the killing of innocents and you have the state saying that it’s OK to do so. There is a conflict of power there. The State is imposing it’s will over God’s will. Such an action has to be judged. The logical conclusion is that since such an action, on the part of the State is contrary to God’s Divine will and is contrary God’s plan for government, then such an action must be judged as illegitimate. No one is morally bound to obey an illegitimate law.
The other problem with the PACE law is that it does not protect the rights of the pro-life people. It was created to protect the rights of the pro-abortion crowd. But when that same population turns and harasses and insults the pro-life population, there is no law to protect them. However, I have not heard your position on this matter and I’d be interested in hearing it.

What gives a lawyer the right to wave a paper in the face of a religious and shout at him, “Don’t you have any altar boys to bother today?”

What gives the staff member of an abortuary the right to block the view to a sign being held by a Catholic bishop?

What law is in place to ensure that this does not happen?
But prayer? Prayer is good.
To quote St. Catherine of Siena, “Prayer is good only when it produces great charity toward the most innocent and the most vulnerable and when it begs for forgiveness. He who prays, but fails to serve the most innocent and the most vulnerable or fails for ask for forgivenss has not prayed at all. He has made a mockery of prayer.” Every Catholic should know this.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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