Obediance to Bishops, Essential for Salvation?

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Joe65436

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These message boards have shown how little I understand the office of Bishop, it’s authority, and my own role as a lay person in relation to it.

If I dissent against my Bishop, will I go to hell?
 
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Joe65436:
These message boards have shown how little I understand the office of Bishop, it’s authority, and my own role as a lay person in relation to it.

If I dissent against my Bishop, will I go to hell?
Ummmm can you narrow that down to something specific?

Your Bishop can’t command you to sin …so if he’s teaching contrary to the Church then you aren’t obligated to obey him in THAT specific item.

Now if your Bishop is in line with Church teaching and you dissent against him you could be in trouble…that’s all going to depend on the nature of your dissent and how you understand the situation…maybe you are ignorant of the severity of what you are doing, maybe you don’t fully understand the teaching.

So it’s going to depend on various factors I think.

SV

SV
 
I would have to agree with SV
Disobediance to a bishop is only justifiable if the bishop is in schism with Rome or commanding you to do something that is sinful. However if you disobey out of your own ignorance, that is excusable since you just didn’t know, however it is also you job to make sure you are aware of the things expected of you.
 
Honestly, I don’t even know how to begin to narrow the question. I was recently converted to the Roman Catholic Church (1999), and the office of Bishop…well I never had questions about it. Nor did I have questions about the eucharist.

To me, a Bishop is a Bishop. And that pretty much settles it. They are the successors of the Apostles. From this perspective, it had never crossed my mind to dissent, or oppose, or even challenge a Bishop. I mean, why should I? There is a laying on of hands during the what-ever-you-call-it ceremony-elevation-thing.

I think that the Church belongs to God, it is guided by the Holy Spirit, and it is the Body of Christ. In my simplistic view of the Church…I don’t know…dissent never crossed my mind.
 
As an example…(no politics please) there is a lot of disagreement about the Bishops decision about preventing Catholic Politicians from receiving the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Definately complex no doubt. But dissent, or disagreement with the Bishops? Why?
 
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Joe65436:
As an example…(no politics please) there is a lot of disagreement about the Bishops decision about preventing Catholic Politicians from receiving the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Definately complex no doubt. But dissent, or disagreement with the Bishops? Why?
From my understanding the teachings of the Church are clear about not being in a state of mortal sin when you present yourself for Communion.

If my Bishop supports letting those who openly support abortion receive communion, I feel I am able to dissent with him in this case and say I disagree with his viewpoint. This doesn’t mean he’s wrong about everything or that I have a right to just ignore everything else he has to say.

SV
 
What do you mean by dissent? Is the Bishop clearly explaining Church teaching to you and are you in disagreement and doing the opposite? Then yeah…Hell may be on the Menu for you

Is the Bishop telling you something that is CONTRARY to church teaching, that even a 12 year old would know what the Bishop is saying is contrary to the written teachings? If so…then you MUST disagree…even CORRECT the Bishop…its the Bishop who is dissenting from the truth…and then HE should be out shopping for sunblock 8,000. Is the BIshop telling you in his opinion you shouldnty do something? If its his opinion…what is it in regards? Again, does it differ from the church…Paul, said in his opinion men shouldnt marry…obviously his opinion is just that and nothing more…if your bishop says dont marry, and you wanna marry…than laugh it off and dont worry about hell… unless you told him you like to beat women or something… 😉

We are not automatons…lay people take no vow of obedience like some religious do… we defend our faith and church…and if it means to correct priest and bishops at certain times, then we must do that as well. They are not above the truth…they serve the truth.
 
St Veronica:
From my understanding…If my Bishop supports letting those who openly support abortion receive communion, I feel I am able to dissent with him in this case and say I disagree with his viewpoint.
From my understanding, dissent is not different from disobedience, so that if dissenting to a Bishop’s disciplinary authority over his dioceses I would not be obedient, therefore loosing my salvation.

If I can dissent from proper authorities, what is to prevent me from falling down the slippery slope of that first sin of wanting to become like god?

Where am I wrong?
 
Faithful 2 Rome:
What do you mean by dissent?
Dissent in the most broadest term. Just so you know, I am also somewhat guarded when I read a post by someone with the moniker, Faithful 2 Rome.
Is the Bishop telling you something that is CONTRARY to church teaching, that even a 12 year old would know what the Bishop is saying is contrary to the written teachings?
Sounds an aweful lot like what a protestant might say. Written truth?

I feel that if I can’t trust God to guide ours Bishops, then there isn’t much hope of ever obtaining to truth. I wouldn’t think of trusting my own relative perception of truth; and I even dare to say that 12 year old’s perception of truth is far superior to my own. Over the years, I have realized how corrupt my mind is. No, if I can’t trust my Bishop, then there is no hope.

I also think you are confusing obedience. Why do you think automatons apart of the nature of obedience? The nature of obedience, IMO, is more correctly that of submission, or subordination. Obedience suggests order.
 
Um yeah…WRITTEN TRUTH…

You trust God to guide the Bishops…little too naive…Catholics trust the the Holy Spirit that when it comes to matters of teaching and dogmas that the Pope will teach infallibly… God doesnt guarantee that priests and Bishops are gonna follow those rules…how then do you account for so many bishops not in union with Rome? Is God then telling them ALL to have differning opinions from the Pope? The SUPREME Pontif of the Church?..and its okay? THAT is Protestantism

YOU are the one who sounds like a protestant here…

ANSWER THIS:

What do YOU do when one Bishop says Homsexuals should be accepted for their lifestyle and woman allowed to be priests?

And another Bishop FOLLOWS the CHURCHES TEACHINGS…ie…Homosexuals CANNOT be admitted to the fullness of the Church unless and until they turn away from the practice of homosexuality…and women cannot be priests?

WHo would you follow? According to your thoughts…BOTH are being led by God…how is that possible?

Let me make it even MORE interesting for ya…the DISSENTING Bishop is in YOUR DISOCESE…now what do you do? Do actually think that you cant dissent? Even if you dont tell him what you think…and just go to another Church or diocese…YOU are silently dissenting. If you stay and know what he is teaching is wrong, WHY? Do you think you and all us Catholics must adhere to the opinions of the Bishops in each of our own Dioceses…no matter how differnt the opinions are? We already have THAT problem and that is why the Church is going thru the problems it is…cause too many people DONT follow the “moniker” FAITHFUL2ROME. (Being faithful to Rome…not me… 😛 )

We dissent everday of our lives…we HAVE to…its called choosing and making informed and intelligent decisions…and not being afraid to do so…and with all due respect…it sounds like you are afraid to do just that.

God Bless
 
Are you claiming that Bishop Weigand is dissenting from Pope John Paul II?

Also, name one Bishop each who supports homosexual relationships, and women priests.
 
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Joe65436:
From my understanding, dissent is not different from disobedience, so that if dissenting to a Bishop’s disciplinary authority over his dioceses I would not be obedient, therefore loosing my salvation.

If I can dissent from proper authorities, what is to prevent me from falling down the slippery slope of that first sin of wanting to become like god?

Where am I wrong?
In the case I presented…there is no disobedience if I disagree with my Bishop. He hasn’t ordered me to do something I am refusing to do. I can disagree with his stance on allowing openly pro-abort politicans/Catholics receive.

Admittedly, this is an easy example (at least for me)…it’s when you get into the grey areas that it becomes sticky.

This is why you have so many Catholics ‘up in arms’ about their Bishops who appear to support things contrary to the understood teaching of the Church. Faithful Catholics want their Bishops to LEAD and take firm stands, to be the parent they are supposed to be! No child likes changing boundries and lenient parents, not really.

There are Bishops who are failing to lead the flock as they should. Perhaps you have heard the old saying ‘the road to hell is paved with the skulls of Bishops’.

I think if there is a case where one is unsure of the Church teaching then it might be adviseable to be obedient to the Bishop.

Keep in mind this is strictly my personal opinion here.

SV
 
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Tanais:
I would have to agree with SV
Disobediance to a bishop is only justifiable if the bishop is in schism with Rome or commanding you to do something that is sinful.
That was my general feeling. So if my bishop said this, I am obligated to obey?
I am speaking to you solely as your bishop with the authority and responsibility I, though a sinner, have been given as a successor to the apostles on your behalf. I am speaking to you from the deepest chambers of my conscience as your bishop, appointed by Jesus Christ in his Body, the Church, to help shepherd you to sanctity and to heaven. Never before have I spoken to you in this manner, explicitly exercising the fullness of authority Jesus Christ has given his Apostles “to bind and to loose,” (cf. John 20:23), but now “the love of Christ compels” me to do so (2 Corinthians 5:14). My love for you makes it a moral imperative that I not allow you, by my silence, to fall into grave evil and its incalculable temporal and eternal consequences.

Therefore I, by the grace of God and the favor of the Apostolic See Bishop of the Eparchy of St. George in Canton, must declare to you, my people, for the sake of your salvation as well as my own, that any direct participation and support of this war against the people of Iraq is objectively grave evil, a matter of mortal sin. Beyond a reasonable doubt this war is morally incompatible with the Person and Way of Jesus Christ. With moral certainty I say to you it does not meet even the minimal standards of the Catholic just war theory.

Thus, any killing associated with it is unjustified and, in consequence, unequivocally murder. Direct participation in this war is the moral equivalent of direct participation in an abortion. For the Catholics of the Eparchy of St. George, I hereby authoritatively state that such direct participation is intrinsically and gravely evil and therefore absolutely forbidden.
 
Listen, thanks for your opinions. Yes, until I grow in the faith, I can only trust my Bishop. What else can I do, until I understand? I am confident that little by little, these things will come to me.

The Iraq War, and the Politician/Eucharist scandal are easy examples, thankfully. They provide a good crash course training into understanding my Catholic Faith better and the role of Bishops in my life.
St Veronica:
I can disagree with his stance on allowing openly pro-abort politicans/Catholics receive.
Here I am confused. Does your Bishop support the Politician/Eucharist scandal? And you are not very happy about this. I mean, who would be. So you disagree with your Bishop? Well, at the very least there is another Bishop with whom you do agree, so you are not totally alone.

I have one problem with the example of the Politican/Eucharist scandal. It is one of enforcement. At some point we as a laity need to be responsible. I beleive many Catholics eat the body of Christ who should not, and not just for the abortion scandal.
Admittedly, this is an easy example (at least for me)…it’s when you get into the grey areas that it becomes sticky.
For you. For me I need to take Baby steps…
This is why you have so many Catholics ‘up in arms’ about their Bishops who appear to support things contrary to the understood teaching of the Church.
I totally understand, and it is sad.

I never heard the old saying ‘the road to hell is paved with the skulls of Bishops’. but I did hear that the “rode to hell was paved with good intentions”.
 
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digitonomy:
That was my general feeling. So if my bishop said this, I am obligated to obey?
Has the Bishop addressed what military members are supposed to do? The Church does make provisions that those in the military are obligated to follow orders. So it does appear on the face of it that the Bishop is exceeding his authority in some of his commentary.

SV
 
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digitonomy:
That was my general feeling. So if my bishop said this, I am obligated to obey?
I am speaking to you solely as your bishop with the authority and responsibility I, though a sinner, have been given as a successor to the apostles on your behalf. I am speaking to you from the deepest chambers of my conscience as your bishop, appointed by Jesus Christ in his Body, the Church, to help shepherd you to sanctity and to heaven. Never before have I spoken to you in this manner, explicitly exercising the fullness of authority Jesus Christ has given his Apostles “to bind and to loose,” (cf. John 20:23), but now “the love of Christ compels” me to do so (2 Corinthians 5:14). My love for you makes it a moral imperative that I not allow you, by my silence, to fall into grave evil and its incalculable temporal and eternal consequences.
Therefore I, by the grace of God and the favor of the Apostolic See Bishop of the Eparchy of St. George in Canton, must declare to you, my people, for the sake of your salvation as well as my own, that any direct participation and support of this war against the people of Iraq is objectively grave evil, a matter of mortal sin. Beyond a reasonable doubt this war is morally incompatible with the Person and Way of Jesus Christ. With moral certainty I say to you it does not meet even the minimal standards of the Catholic just war theory.
Thus, any killing associated with it is unjustified and, in consequence, unequivocally murder. Direct participation in this war is the moral equivalent of direct participation in an abortion. For the Catholics of the Eparchy of St. George, I hereby authoritatively state that such direct participation is intrinsically and gravely evil and therefore absolutely forbidden.
I don’t know? Wow, that is quite a statement. Bishop Gregory in his Advisory letter to President Bush never spoke with this much certainty. His letter raised grave moral concerns about the Iraq War. Who wrote this statement?
 
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Joe65436:
Listen, thanks for your opinions. Yes, until I grow in the faith, I can only trust my Bishop. What else can I do, until I understand? I am confident that little by little, these things will come to me.

The Iraq War, and the Politician/Eucharist scandal are easy examples, thankfully. They provide a good crash course training into understanding my Catholic Faith better and the role of Bishops in my life.

Here I am confused. Does your Bishop support the Politician/Eucharist scandal? And you are not very happy about this. I mean, who would be. So you disagree with your Bishop? Well, at the very least there is another Bishop with whom you do agree, so you are not totally alone.

I have one problem with the example of the Politican/Eucharist scandal. It is one of enforcement. At some point we as a laity need to be responsible. I beleive many Catholics eat the body of Christ who should not, and not just for the abortion scandal.

For you. For me I need to take Baby steps…

I totally understand, and it is sad.

I never heard the old saying ‘the road to hell is paved with the skulls of Bishops’. but I did hear that the “rode to hell was paved with good intentions”.
Yes my Bishop is of the opinion that we should not refuse Catholics who are openly against Church teaching, Communion. I disagree with him and it’s things like this that cause so much confusion amongst the layity. It’s no wonder so many receive in a state of mortal sin…when it seems nothing is a mortal sin anymore.

The arguement can be made that the layity put too much trust in the Bishops (who in turn failed them) and have no doubt they will be held accountable to God.

It’s often said (by non-Catholics trying to insult Catholics) that we Catholics just blindly follow our clergy and don’t think for ourselves…and there are some Catholics who do fit this …however I don’t think we are supposed to ‘check our brains at the door of the Church’ …we do have a right to expect the correct beliefs to be taught to us. We have a right to expect the clergy uphold the teachings of the Church. We have an obligation to see to it that we also follow them. People need to educate themselves on what the Church teaches, not to be content just to go to Mass on Sunday and figure that’s all they need to learn about the Faith.

It ain’t easy being ‘green’!

SV
 
St Veronica:
Yes my Bishop is of the opinion that we should not refuse Catholics who are openly against Church teaching, Communion. I disagree with him and it’s things like this that cause so much confusion amongst the layity. It’s no wonder so many receive in a state of mortal sin…when it seems nothing is a mortal sin anymore.

The arguement can be made that the layity put too much trust in the Bishops (who in turn failed them) and have no doubt they will be held accountable to God.

It’s often said (by non-Catholics trying to insult Catholics) that we Catholics just blindly follow our clergy and don’t think for ourselves…and there are some Catholics who do fit this …however I don’t think we are supposed to ‘check our brains at the door of the Church’ …we do have a right to expect the correct beliefs to be taught to us. We have a right to expect the clergy uphold the teachings of the Church. We have an obligation to see to it that we also follow them. People need to educate themselves on what the Church teaches, not to be content just to go to Mass on Sunday and figure that’s all they need to learn about the Faith.

It ain’t easy being ‘green’!

SV
From my short list of experiences with the church due to my recent conversion to the catholic faith, it seems fairly obvious IMO that the Church steers through the obstacles of life like a gigantic ship with a small rudder. I think it will make the turn, but it might take years.

If I was a Bishop, and this is a far cry from even the most grandest dreams, I would be excommunicating a LOT of people. Heck, if I was God, there would be a lot of lightning bolts and smoldering smoke from where used to stand Catholic Politicians who were too afraid of the Gospel of Life.

Do you have any suggested readings that might be helpful for me regarding the role of Bishops?
 
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Joe65436:
From my short list of experiences with the church due to my recent conversion to the catholic faith, it seems fairly obvious IMO that the Church steers through the obstacles of life like a gigantic ship with a small rudder. I think it will make the turn, but it might take years.

If I was a Bishop, and this is a far cry from even the most grandest dreams, I would be excommunicating a LOT of people. Heck, if I was God, there would be a lot of lightning bolts and smoldering smoke from where used to stand Catholic Politicians who were too afraid of the Gospel of Life.

Do you have any suggested readings that might be helpful for me regarding the role of Bishops?
Your analogy is fairly accurate.

Well I don’t know of any books that address the role of the Bishop specifically…although reading about the ECF’s (some were Bishops) might help gain insight.

It can’t be easy being a Bishop, they are human, and struggle with the same temptations as we all do and probably more so since satan knows bringing down the shepherd causes the sheep to scatter.

Have you read any of Archbishop Fulton Sheen’s stuff? You can see him on EWTN each week.

SV
 
St Veronica:
Has the Bishop addressed what military members are supposed to do? The Church does make provisions that those in the military are obligated to follow orders. So it does appear on the face of it that the Bishop is exceeding his authority in some of his commentary.
I believe I read that the diocese (eparchy) was planning to make every effort to assist its members in obtaining conscientious objector status.

I can’t rule out the possibility that the bishop was exceeding his authority, but I don’t think there’s firm footing on the grounds you state. A soldier is not obligated to follow orders to commit a grave and serious sin. If you’re ordered to round up the Jews to send them off to the gas chamber, you’re not morally obligated to do so, and this is true regardless of whether your bishop speaks on the issue. If the order is merely questionable, well you can’t have soldiers wantonly opposing every little thing. I’m not well-read on Catholic just war theory, but I suspect Bishop Botean is, and the phrase “objectively grave evil” that he uses is probably well-rooted and discussed in Catholic teaching on this issue.

Personally, while I found the war a bit questionable when it began, and continue to feel this way now, it’s not clear to me that it was wholly unjustified. So I would have to give the benefit of the doubt to my commanders, and follow my orders like a good soldier.

Unless my bishop made the statement above. I may personally find what he said an unwarranted overreaction, but I think I would be morally obligated to follow his guidance on this issue of faith and morals. As St Veronica mentioned above,
I think if there is a case where one is unsure of the Church teaching then it might be adviseable to be obedient to the Bishop.
Joe - follow the link in my previous post.

BTW, in the interest of full disclosure, I pared his message down to just the meat, by editing out a few paragraphs. I don’t think I changed the meaning in any way, and you can follow the link for the full text.
 
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