Obedience Question

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Wm777

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This question might seem a bit odd, but I’ll try to explain my thinking after asking.

How does one attain to obedience when there is no one or a superior to obey (or disobey)?

One way of understanding this might be to look at one of the Ten Commandments, so let’s assume “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor”, as an example.

The spirit of this commandment seems very much like the Golden Rule; and, failure to observe it is often reflected in the 5th petition of the Paternoster, “Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us”. They aren’t exactly the same, of course. The Golden Rule seems a bit more general than the specific requirements of the commandment; and, the petition is a plea for mercy. In general, however, it seems like all three are aimed at maintaining a sense of peace and harmony within the community of God, self and neighbor. The way these morays are constructed, it would be hard to condemn one’s neighbor without condemning one’s self, or betraying God, who is Love and Mercy Itself (for Deus Carita Est)

But the underlying “assumption” that creates this dynamic is a community of God, self and neighbor - which seems to parallel the Trinity. Please notice, I did not say the community of God, self and neighbor IS the Trinity; for the Trinity is Father, Son and Holy Spirit; but the relationship is strikingly similar to me nonetheless.

If, then, the assumption holds on a more human level, and we are trying to uphold the commandment not to bear false witness against our neighbor - my question is, what if you live alone? Then there would be no one (in the sense of a human) to lie to, or to lie about. So, since there is no basis for telling a truth or a falsity, how then does one obey the rule?

What I am trying to say is, I want to deepen my spirituality, and I think it is supposed to happen via obedience. Obedience seems to mandate community somehow. So I prayerfully talk with God, and I try to keep His words, but the “community-thing” doesn’t always seem to gain much traction.

So where am I going wrong?

God’s Blessings,

Wm
 
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The idea of an accountability partner or spiritual director comes to mind.

I guess such might help, but then one could see the question in reverse - asking what God thinks or wants.

It becomes a bit of a conundrum.

Amazing.

Wm
 
A couple of places that obedience comes to mind is at work and in the community generally.

When your boss asks you to do something, do you do it or do you grumble about it first? In the larger community do you accept guidance from the Church or do you complain about your pastor or bishop? How is you relationship with the various politicians who represent you? Something constructive or mostly grumbling?

I’m not trying to say that you can’t disagree with people or their direction, but there’s a difference between disagreeing by making a better suggestion and simply complaining. Complaining isn’t compatible with obedience.
 
One thing to keep in mind is that God judges by the heart, which He knows far better than we do. And Jesus said that sin begins in and issues from the inside of us. So even if our failure to love neighbor may never be tested, He knows whether or not we have love in our heart. And love, according to the catechism, is what we’ll be judged on. On a related side note, I remember that it was much easier to see myself as holy before I was married, living alone. 😁
 
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Thank you for these comments. They are truly helpful, I think.

The only part I might take issue with is the part about complaining.

My boss has 185 IQ (no kidding; I’ve seen proof through the Govt with respect to how he scored on his credentials), and he is not always the easiest guy to work for. Yet, ironically, he’s not always right about everything, since the work he does is so high-level he can’t always tell what’s going on at lower levels. His position will usually be to push people, so - if something is really wrong - you sometimes have to complain to get through to him.

I don’t know if I would say Jesus is the same way. Jesus just knows God’s will because he is the only son of the Father. And, yet, he was still broken on the cross. Christ asked to let the cup of the crucifixion pass, so it’s sort of like complaining. And - of the two brothers who were asked to do a Fathers will - one agreed, and didnt act; but the one who disagreed, did do the Fathers will. Christ said that in exhorting people not to listen to the corrupt people in power at the synagogue. So - I know it sounds disruptive and non-peaceful - but it seems like there can be a plaintiff side to obedience.

As for the part about engaging in work - so long as it is in keeping with Truth and goodness, then I tend to think you make a very good point… And so I thank you… 🙂
 
IDK, Jesus obeyed, in spite of foreknowledge about an excruciatingly painful passion and death, which He could’ve walked away from.
 
That’s kind of my point.

If it is just one person and God, then it’s kind of hard to discern a difference.

On the other hand, if you somehow get socially “stuck”, it’s kind of the same thing.

It’s very confusing, I think.
 
Maybe being a hermit could be akin to the lazy servant burying his talents. He may think he’s playing it safe but he’s never tested, never refined, never grows, never produces.
 
fhansen said:
Maybe being a hermit could be akin to the lazy servant burying his talents. He may think he’s playing it safe but he’s never tested, never refined, never grows, never produces.
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Well, I wouldn’t equate being single with the eremitic life, nor with an unproductive life.

As for being single, it doesn’t make one a hermit, as I work in public accounting, and deal with people regularly in their livelihoods. My idea of a hermit would be more like - I dunno, someone like the Una Bomber, or someone who would really go out of their way to be alone… not necessarily in an anti-social sense, but definitely non-social and reclusive…

Besides, many Saints were hermits. I guess, it is probably arguable why they may have opted to become hermits. Some were said to have wanted to escape the temptations of the world. But, then, some also likely appeared a bit crazy to most of their peers, and they just weren’t compatible with social norms of their day. So they learned by drinking from the stream by the wayside, and, thus, they lifted their head.

I’d like to point out - question wasn’t necessarily to be taken in the negative… That’s why I stated the converse, as well… If one communes with God in prayer, then tries to act in community with others - one will eventually find onesself back with God somehow or other… I think the idea was to somehow stay with God the whole way through - because then whatever you’re trying to accomplish should work by God’s will, not your own…

If the Lord doesn’t build the house, then the laborers work in vain…

The problem I’m trying to discern is how to tell the difference. It may not really even be - actually, it isn’t even possible by one’s own will alone… but I still think we’re all called to act…

So - hmmm…
 
Your first obedience is to God! He is always w you. It’s a non-issue, if you live alone. You have no temptation to lie.
Deepening your spirituality, is more living in His Word. It’s going to daily mass & communion. Enjoying the sacraments to their fullest. Going to Bible Studies & prayer groups. A single individual can manage this around their job. A married person can do some of the above, but not all.
Then, putting that Spirit of God, in you, to work. Work in the Salvation Army Soup kitchens. Volunteer at the hospital to feed babies in the feed & grow section. Pick a burden in your heart, & try & fix it.
Do you want to become a nun?? The fact that you believe in God & want to be w Him, is wonderful.
This is meant to be funny… When you asked how you could be obedient, when you had no one to give you orders, to which you’d be obedient. It was rather complicated. It reminded me of the question asked in Philosophy. Does a tree make a sound when it falls, in the woods, w no one there to hear it??
I say,”Yes!” Sound is vibration. It occurs 100% of the time. There are Bambi’s around that hear it.
I don’t know if there is a correct answer.
EPHESIANS 3: 14-21
 
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Wm777 said:
How does one attain to obedience when there is no one or a superior to obey (or disobey)?
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When it boils down to it, there is always a superior to obey.

Human beings are made in the image and likeness of God, the same image and likeness which is Christ, Jesus. Christ is at the very center of our souls, whether we recognize Him or not, through the very act of our Creation. Obedience is conformity to Christ’s relationship with the Father. This is why conscience is so important to the vow of obedience. Our conscience is Christ’s voice in our hearts calling us back to Him. Even for those with solemn vows of obedience, an order which contradicts the religious’s conscience may be appealed to a higher authority.

This is why so much time in religious formation, through novitiate and spiritual direction, is spent upon correctly forming the prospective religious’s conscience. It is not forming or changing the voice of Christ in us per se, but rather it is conforming our own sense of self, our pride and self-image, to that voice which is spoken softly in the human heart.

Obedience is always a response to the voice of God, whether it be through an external superior or quietly through our consciences.

God Bless,
Br. Ben, CRM
 
Here comes that word again… the Magisterium for Latin Rite Roman Catholics.
 
Getting back to the OP main question about sinning against a neighbor even when alone ,it can actually happen. HOw? You might think lustful thoughts about a neighbor. You have sinned by entertaining lustful thoughts even though your neighbor wasn’t even there.

Or, you can masturbate or something like this even while alone. You have sinned against God and yourself in that case.

We musn’t forget that there are objective moral truths set by God. Even when we are alone we should not violate those truths.
 
Romans13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval; 4 for it is God’s servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience. 6 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, busy with this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is due them—taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

1 Corinthians 6:12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are beneficial. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything.

1 Corinthians 10:23 23 “All things are lawful,” but not all things are beneficial. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up.

there is more evil than common good globally
 
A high IQ can be a cross to bear too, we should also remember that such test results are how you performed on an IQ test. Agreed they have something to say of interest. Also I’ve noticed that we often call someone clever when actually they have read widely and have an excellent recall. The use of knowledge can demonstrate fluid intelligence. Intelligence is a wonderful thing and I’ve no doubt those blessed with high intelligence are guided by God as we all are but since God is omniscient I can see why other human and spiritual attributes should be more highly valued. I think if there is a shortage it may be in other ways. I would value wisdom more highly and of course a charitable disposition I think.

To the point, if I was on a desert island alone and had no supervisor I would pray as ever and follow any guidance obviously and rely on the innate natural law and sense of right built in to my being by God to supervise myself.
 
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