Obedience questions

[Kathrin]

I am interested in how other people here see the matter of obedience to priests and how far it goes… I’ll ask with the help of a couple of examples.

Let’s say there is a moral dilemma. Let’s say a married woman feels called to serve in a third world country and spend much time away from her family, and she asks a priest for advice.
Could he actually, by binding obedience, tell her what to do? I don’t think a priest WOULD do that, right?
Let’s say he told her leaving her family would be a sin.
Would it then, for her, be so, because he told her so?
What if her conscience tells her something else? Would she have to listen to her conscience or to the priest?

If she felt unsure, could she ask a different priest? Could it be that a different priest told her the opposite, that it would be a sin not to listen to her calling?

Or would you say: God speaks through priests, so definitely every one of them would tell her the right thing to do?

I am really a bit confused sometimes here.

Probably in most cases when we have dilemmas like that we kind of already feel what is right, and automatically the priest we go to for counsel will just help us find out what is right, and not TELL us what to do. Right?

Second example: If a priest gives me a spiritual exercise to do every day. And I try it out and feel it may not be right for me. Am I allowed to stop it?
Do I have to ask the same priest again? What if I asked a different priest and he told me it would be ok to stop it, would that also lift the obligation?

I don’t want to come across as questioning anything, I am just confused sometimes here.

Thanks for any replies!

Kathrin

 

[Orchanian]

My opinion on the first example: Sometimes we feel called to something that we really want to do, not necessarily that God wants us to do. Perhaps something is lacking or difficult in our family life so we choose a path that takes us away from that family. So I think it’s important to have a priest who knows our situation so that he can give us the proper direction.

Most of the time, the priest will give direction, but not orders. Obedience is an issue when it comes to following the teachings of the Church. And if you are a religious, then you must obey your superior.

If the priest suggests something that doesn’t work for you, be sure you have given it a good try before you let it go.

One thing I noted in your examples is the desire to go to another priest to see if you get a “better” answer. It is better to go back to the same priest and explain your dilemma completely and your concerns about his advice or suggestion.

 

[SMHW]

Kathrin, I don’t think there is a simple answer to your question.

The basic answer is that a priest can demand obedience so long as what he asks would not be morally wrong. But in general, a priest is probably not going to demand something for which there is not an objective rule.

However, if a priest gives advice to someone, that person needs to take the advice seriously.

In the case you give, of a woman wanting to (frequently) leave her family to do work oversees, I would expect that a priest would tell her that she ought not do it. But ‘ought not’ is not an absolute prohibition. It’s more of a, “that’s not a very good idea and you are risking harm to yourself and your family if you proceed with your plans.” (My guess is that a priest would tell such a woman to, “wait.” Waiting could be for any number of a combination of things to happen: prayer, agreement with the spouse, arrangements for children, etc.)

I think the failure of a person to *consider *the advice (as opposed to a demand for obedience )a of a priest would be sinful. A failure to *follow *that advice may or may not be sinful.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\Let’s say there is a moral dilemma. Let’s say a married woman feels called to serve in a third world country and spend much time away from her family, and she asks a priest for advice.\

**If this call were really from God, your husband would feel it, too.

What you are asking is to flit from priest to priest to get someone to agree with you and tell you what you want to hear.

This is NOT obedience.**

 

[1ke]

Kathrin, knowing your suffer from scrupulosity, I am going to give you a direct answer.

NO you are not obligated to continue a spiritual exercise you don’t want to do. You are taking “every day” much to literally. I know with scruplosity you tend to see things very black and white. But, remember, no one can obligate you to do something every day, forever.

And, NO, a priest cannot forbid a woman from doing what you propose. It might be a bad idea. It might even be a sin if she is neglecting the vows she took and the rights/obligations she exchanged with her husband. But, a priest cannot forbid you.

Our obedience to the Church is matters of doctrin (faith and morals) and those things specifically prescribed in canon law (like fast days, obligation days, etc). Private spiritual counsel is advise only. It cannot be mandatory/obligatory or binding on you.

 

[Kathrin]

Yes, I guess did ask the question in the context of my scrupulosity, but didn’t want to make that the topic here. Just wanted to ask objectively.

Maybe the first example was a bit extreme. I know it happens, but I also know it’s usually a very difficult situation for the whole family where a lot of discernment has to be made, and of course there a priest could really help… help find out what God really wants… and this is not a matter of orders, I guess… usually, anyway.

You know, priests who know me and how literally I sometimes take things, have been very kind to me… making sure they don’t say things that make me afraid… pointing out something is an advice…

This kindness is so comforting.


Kathrin

 

[bpbasilphx]

First off, please uderstand that laymen have NEVER been under as strict obedience to parish clergy as religious are to their superiors, or monastics to their spiritual fathers.

Too often I’ve seen mere pastors who were wannabee elders with delusions of adequacy try to impose such obedience on their parishioners, with disastrous results.

St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, who knew the Optina Elders personally, once said something like this: “Eldership is not given to our time. We are not worthy of it. What is given to our time is counselling and advising, and it’s up to the counsellee to determine how much, or even if, the advice fits his situation.”

Elder, in this context, means a monk (usually, but can be a nun) who after long experience in prayer and ascetic effort has been given great spiritual insight by God to know “the word in due season” to give to someone needing it. St. Seraphim of Sarov was one example. So was St. Pio–in fact, a modern elder par excellence. And (so I believe) was Venerable John Paul.

 

[1ke]

Yes, I guess did ask the question in the context of my scrupulosity, but didn’t want to make that the topic here. Just wanted to ask objectively.

The reason I often answer your questions formed around your scruplosity is because you cannot see what I can see from here. That it very much colors everything you think about with regard to the faith.

Kathrin, the fact that you asked if it was wrong to stop a spiritual exercise that a priest told you to do every day is a function of your scrupulosity. Others would not have had the thought occur to them that they were obligated to keep doing it.

I don’t think you see, because you are suffering from this, just how much it impedes your ability to discern what is a sin and what isn’t.

And, those who don’t know you have srupulosity may say something that you take literally and that would lead you to believe you are indeed sinning. They wouldn’t mean to do this, but not knowing you are scrupulous they wouldn’t know to be very precise in what they are telling you, such as this: The basic answer is that a priest can demand obedience so long as what he asks would not be morally wrong. This isn’t accurate. Obedience of this type applies to those who have taken vows in an Order, not laymen.

You know, priests who know me and how literally I sometimes take things, have been very kind to me… making sure they don’t say things that make me afraid… pointing out something is an advice…

This kindness is so comforting.


Kathrin

Stick with them. They know you and know your situation. I am glad they are kind and reassuring to you. You are such a kind and loving person. I know it must be hard to struggle with self doubt. I pray for you, Kathrin.

 

[OraLabora]

With regards to the serving overseas matter; there are a lot of unanswered questions. Does the OP have young children that depend on her? Is her husband able, consistent with his professional or work duties, able to assume the entire burden of the family for extended periods? Will it cause financial hardship on the family? Unless we’re talking a retired couple where the husband is able to support himself (i.e. no infirmities that require his wife’s help), I would say it’s a bad idea. People in the military are well aware that this can happen when they make their commitments and can plan for it. I’m willing to bet your husband didn’t bargain on this when he married you. My wife, a physician, has the same calling but she’s waiting until the kids are all out of the home; as I have my own profession and am self-supporting and realize her skills can be valuable, I would reluctantly let her go. And the reluctance is entirely related to my own selfishness. But if she were to go tomorrow morning, I would be very angry and would feel she is abandoning her primary duty to be, above all, mother to the child we still have at home. Moreover I would not be able to bear, alone, the financial burden of two other children in college.

That said, I am reminded here about what my spiritual director once told me. I am a Benedictine secular oblate and belong to a monastery that I very much love. I told my spiritual director once that I wished I had discovered the monastery in my 20s, my life might have taken a different turn and probably would have been very attracted to a monastic vocation.

His answer was “Ora, God has brought you to exactly where He wants you in this life; you have the vocation of being husband and father to three wonderful young boys. That is your primary vocation in life, and it doesn’t stop you from being attached spiritually to the monastery”.

Wise man! In your case, I would assume He has brought you to be mother and wife. It’s your primary vocation. It is very difficult to discern sometimes whether we are genuinely hearing a calling, or we are running away from something. At the time I made my comment to my spiritual director, I was finding the vocation of being a husband extremely difficult. I still do. It was clear that I found the idea of becoming a monk a form of escape. A vocation that is taken to escape something is not a vocation at all. A vocation comes from love.

Charity, as they say, begins at home, starting with our duties towards our families. There may be other ways to support overseas missions until your family is independent enough to allow you time away from them. If you don’t have the financial ability to support a mission, they always need volunteers at home to keep the program going.

 

[stuart12]

If you are calling is that of the marriage state, you must remain within that until you or your wife/husband dies. You have made the vows before God, and you must honour them. You can not just flee when you take the fancy.

 

[Kathrin]

And, those who don’t know you have srupulosity may say something that you take literally and that would lead you to believe you are indeed sinning. They wouldn’t mean to do this, but not knowing you are scrupulous they wouldn’t know to be very precise in what they are telling you, .

I am aware of that. Maybe that is one reason why I think it is better to not formulate my questions too personally.

such as this: The basic answer is that a priest can demand obedience so long as what he asks would not be morally wrong. This isn’t accurate. Obedience of this type applies to those who have taken vows in an Order, not laymen. .

Well a priest said to me before that obedience is required to the ten commandments, and to the penance in confession.
But I have heard obedience used in many different ways, maybe. So I kept being unsure…

Also, if the answer is that a priest can “demand” obedience (assuming that is correct, and now you don’t say it is) would they have to specifically say that? Like “this I say under the demand of obedience”?
Becuase in a normal conversation often people say things that sound like it may be an order, even if they don’t mean it that way.

Stick with them. They know you and know your situation. I am glad they are kind and reassuring to you. You are such a kind and loving person. I know it must be hard to struggle with self doubt. I pray for you, Kathrin.

Well, I must specify here, I am not always in the same place, but I must say when I was abroad for a longer period of time last year I already found very nice and understanding priests there too.

Thanks for your prayers.
You are very kind.

Kathrin

 

[Kathrin]

With regards to the serving overseas matter; there are a lot of unanswered questions. Does the OP have young children that depend on her? Is her husband able, consistent with his professional or work duties, able to assume the entire burden of the family for extended periods? Will it cause financial hardship on the family? Unless we’re talking a retired couple where the husband is able to support himself (i.e. no infirmities that require his wife’s help), I would say it’s a bad idea. People in the military are well aware that this can happen when they make their commitments and can plan for it. I’m willing to bet your husband didn’t bargain on this when he married you. My wife, a physician, has the same calling but she’s waiting until the kids are all out of the home; as I have my own profession and am self-supporting and realize her skills can be valuable, I would reluctantly let her go. And the reluctance is entirely related to my own selfishness. But if she were to go tomorrow morning, I would be very angry and would feel she is abandoning her primary duty to be, above all, mother to the child we still have at home. Moreover I would not be able to bear, alone, the financial burden of two other children in college.

That said, I am reminded here about what my spiritual director once told me. I am a Benedictine secular oblate and belong to a monastery that I very much love. I told my spiritual director once that I wished I had discovered the monastery in my 20s, my life might have taken a different turn and probably would have been very attracted to a monastic vocation.

His answer was “Ora, God has brought you to exactly where He wants you in this life; you have the vocation of being husband and father to three wonderful young boys. That is your primary vocation in life, and it doesn’t stop you from being attached spiritually to the monastery”.

Wise man! In your case, I would assume He has brought you to be mother and wife. It’s your primary vocation. It is very difficult to discern sometimes whether we are genuinely hearing a calling, or we are running away from something. At the time I made my comment to my spiritual director, I was finding the vocation of being a husband extremely difficult. I still do. It was clear that I found the idea of becoming a monk a form of escape. A vocation that is taken to escape something is not a vocation at all. A vocation comes from love.

Charity, as they say, begins at home, starting with our duties towards our families. There may be other ways to support overseas missions until your family is independent enough to allow you time away from them. If you don’t have the financial ability to support a mission, they always need volunteers at home to keep the program going.

Dear Ora Labora,
that was just a hypothetic example to demonstrate that there could be moral dilemmas where both sides would be done “for something good”.
I am sorry you understood it to be my personal situation. I am neither married nor do I have children…

Still I liked reading about your experience about the monastery . Especially what your spiritual director told you.

Kathrin