J
Julianna
Guest
au claire,
It depends on what the disagreement is about.
It depends on what the disagreement is about.
- Status
A
ac_claire
Guest
Do you mean it depends as in, people do not naturally think that they are right depending on the disagreement?
Or that wives should not automatically defer to their husbands in disagreements, depending on the disagreement?
(Like I said, I’m not married so I have more questions than answers on this subject…
)
J
JRKH
Guest
Just to interject here, there should be great care in discerning your spouse. The idea should be that you both have such similar or complimentary ideas, plans, outlooks etc. that the very notion of serious disagreement seems most unlikely.Do you mean it depends as in, people do not naturally think that they are right depending on the disagreement?
Or that wives should not automatically defer to their husbands in disagreements, depending on the disagreement?
(Like I said, I’m not married so I have more questions than answers on this subject…
This is not to say that you must marry “yourself”, far from it, but there must be a comfort level that goes well beyond “needing to be together” etc.
If you marry someone who “fits”, and respects their partner, there is so little disagreement that they seem triffling, and easily gotten by.
Always remember Rule 1) Don’t sweat the small stuff, and Rule number 2) It’s almost ALL small stuff.
Peace
James
S
savienu
Guest
Great advice here! I do think it so important to discern your spouse. I was graced by God in this area, because when I was married, DH and I were both fallen away Catholics. He was a good man, but I would have scoffed at the idea of his being “head” back then. He didn’t seem to have very many leadership qualities, and I wasn’t interested in that anyway. We’ve had many problems (that’s what happens when you try to have a marriage without God), but I’ve seen the miracles God can work and I await anxiously the convalidation of our wedding vows in October. Ladies, it is so important to marry someone you trust and respect. I can’t stress that enough!
N
nobeerinheaven
Guest
Paul gives a wife two obligations to her husband: respect him and submit to him. If this were not clear enough, the metaphor of Christ and the Church is used. The wife is to act toward the husband as the Church would act toward Christ, and the husband is to act toward the wife as Christ would act toward the Church. The former entails obedience and deeply felt respect, the latter entails sacrifice and self-giving.
We should be very weary of dismissing this very clear teaching in favor of contemporary worldly “equality” (i.e. androgyny). Such views are clearly false, made obvious both by revelation and natural theology.
We should be very weary of dismissing this very clear teaching in favor of contemporary worldly “equality” (i.e. androgyny). Such views are clearly false, made obvious both by revelation and natural theology.
J
Julianna
Guest
I did pose a scenerio that was never answered. However, I have read that obiedence is about “spiritual” head of the house.Do you mean it depends as in, people do not naturally think that they are right depending on the disagreement?
Or that wives should not automatically defer to their husbands in disagreements, depending on the disagreement?
(Like I said, I’m not married so I have more questions than answers on this subject…
Here goes…and yes, I have heard women say they “obeyed” their husbands…
He wants to put the tv and barcolounger in the living room. There is another room that is suitable for a den/office/man cave. He wants in the living room…you don’t.
If it were me…the barcolounger and the tv would be outtathere! I would set up a room for him that he could decorate the way he wants…paint color…choice of furniture. But the beat up barcolounger and the 42" plasma tv would not be in the living room.
Another woman is invited out to lunch with a group of friends…she asks her husband for $10.00 to go to lunch. He says no…she tells her friends…sorry…I can’t go.
The reason is “obey”…this is nuts…
S
savienu
Guest
Well, for the first scenario, I would hope that the husband would be reasonable. Submitting and obeying doesn’t mean “do whatever he says on a whim.” It does mean that if he is doing what is best for the family, to let him. As far as the borrowing $10, I think that would be reasonable if he had a good reason WHY she couldn’t go out with her girlfriends. If he handles the money, he would have a better idea what they could afford and what they couldn’t.
As far as saying “that bar would be outta here!” though, isn’t that just YOU placing YOUR preferences on your husband too, in this hypothetical situation? So why should he obey you? See, this is where things really get messy…
S
sanctamaria17
Guest
Yeah…I thought the word was “submit” which doesn’t mean “obey” in that context…this explained to me by a Catholic priest, a Catholic (college) minister (like youth minister only we’re not in HS anymore), and a Protestant (Assemblies of God) minister. It doesn’t mean he has the final say in EVERYTHING! Also, it’s not in the Catholic marriage vows at all.
When people tell me I’ll have to “obey” my husband, I get the image that I have to ask for everything and not be allowed any decisions. I thought marriage was about teamwork. I mean, I’ll be his wife, I’ll have chosen to marry him. I’m not his child! I don’t need to ask his permission to do anything. Now I understand, you make decisions together and shouldn’t just do what you want. But still, I’ll tell him if I’m going out with my girlfriends, I don’t need to ask him if I can. If my parents no longer expect that of me (since they consider me an adult, as does the law), I don’t see why a person I choose to marry should either.
Now “respect your husbands” makes more sense to me.
Mary_Gail_36
New member
I haven’t participated or read the entire thread…but I wanted to comment.
I heard a priest comment on the roles of husbands and wife. The husband is the head of the family, the wife is the heart. Both are necessary to have life, and neither is more important that the other.
J
Julianna
Guest
In scenario #2…he did not give a reason. He said, “no”. It sounds like a “father/daughter” relationship vs. husband/wife. How sad, that a woman in 2008 has to “ask permission” if she can have money, and “ask permssion” to go out to lunch with some girlfriends.
Scenario #2 is a true story.
Scenario #1 happens all the time. Just go on HGTV and count the number of woman who want to remove panelling from their living room, and get rid of the “old” barcolounger. Any real estate agent will tell you, if you see panneling in a living room your house will sit there. This is where a woman should have some say. Especially if she does all the cooking, cleaning and child care. If she works outside the home, she makes money and therefore can contribute, should DH want a man-cave type room.
But to simply say, “NO”…not happening. I am my husband’s wife, not his daughter. My husband knew from the gitgo, when it came to house hunting, we were going to select a home that had a semi formal room AND a family room. We dividied up the house, he did the kitchen, he does all the cooking, he did the tv room, I did the living room, dining room and together we are re-doing our bedroom. I chose the drapes, he chose the wall color.
There are men out there "who take charge of EVERYTHING, and the wife has no say. Yes, in the 21st century there are men who take “obedience to the 9th degree”.
Why should he obey me? He didn’t, he said, “ok, then we need to purchase a home where I can put the barcolounger.” I agreed, and we did.
I have never in my 27 yrs of marriage, “asked” him if I could go to lunch with my friends…I never “asked” him for $10.00. I worked outside the home, I made money too…so that wasn’t happening. I handle the finances.
In scenario #2…the wife had NO IDEA what was coming in or going out. How pathetic is that? My DH and I sit together once a month and go over the finances…he knows what is coming and going out. If I get hit by a bus, he will know where everything is. Will wife in scenario #2 know what to do? I suspect she will go out and find another man to take care of her and her children. How sad.
I think we really need to beware of absolutes in this type of interpretation. It’s not 1915 anymore…and I am thankful for that.
D
DebChris
Guest
I like the HGTV show, Decorating for the Sexes. I don’t know the host’s name. He is British. Decorating a room can become emotional. He helps couples reconcile their differences as they express themselves in the decoration of their home so that both personalities are expressed. He helps reconcile couples where she wants Victorian and he wants Mission.
Before we married, my husband said that how our home was to be decorated was left up to me. This is of what I see as the managerial role of the wife. I for my part said that I would ask for his (name removed by moderator)ut. Those who decorate know the importance of fit. I would not buy a chair that did not fit his height. If a couple loves each other, they will consider each others needs.
I like the story of an African priest that I read years ago. When a couple comes to him wanting to marry, the first question he asks is whether or not they have had an argument. If the answer is no (“We love each other too much”), he tells them to go home and not return until after they have argued. Does this mean he wants discord in the marriage? Of course not. What he is looking for is the couple’s ability to reconcile after a major disagreement.
If a man grabs a dish to hold the water to hold the paint for his hobby, a woman can clean out an empty tuna can to provide an alternative.
Before we married, my husband said that how our home was to be decorated was left up to me. This is of what I see as the managerial role of the wife. I for my part said that I would ask for his (name removed by moderator)ut. Those who decorate know the importance of fit. I would not buy a chair that did not fit his height. If a couple loves each other, they will consider each others needs.
I like the story of an African priest that I read years ago. When a couple comes to him wanting to marry, the first question he asks is whether or not they have had an argument. If the answer is no (“We love each other too much”), he tells them to go home and not return until after they have argued. Does this mean he wants discord in the marriage? Of course not. What he is looking for is the couple’s ability to reconcile after a major disagreement.
If a man grabs a dish to hold the water to hold the paint for his hobby, a woman can clean out an empty tuna can to provide an alternative.
A
ac_claire
Guest
Just curious…does anyone know off-hand what exactly the Catholic marriage vows say about this? What is the terminology given on this subject?
I’m interested in the difference between submit and obey, and which is actually in the vows. (St. Paul uses both words in scripture.)
Of course…this makes sense. The barcalounger/living room scenerio is, to me, a no-brainer. I don’t see that as an issue of obedience but of respect and good sense. But in the other scenerio, what if the theoretical husband ASKED the wife to not go out with her friends in this example, or said he didn’t want her to? Would the wife be morally bound to obey? Say he had a good reason. On the other hand, say he didn’t offer a particularly good reason. Would she still be bound to obey? Is submission/obedience only required if the wife agrees with what the husband is asking?
I already understand that in an IDEAL situation, this wouldn’t happen this way. The man may be head, but the woman is the heart, the neck, etc. There is submission and sacrifice on both sides, I understand all that, but that’s not my question. Not every situation that arrises is ideal, even in really good marriages. People can be unreasonable, be in a bad mood, etc., etc. So I’m wondering what Catholic wives are supposed to do in these cases.
I ask because St. Paul didn’t include any “conditions” when he wrote about husbands and wives. I agree, this is definitely a thorny issue. I really appreciate all the replies so far.
D
DebChris
Guest
If we are to speak of obedience, we need to return to the idea that the Sacrament of Matrimony is a gift that a man and woman give each other. It involves free will consent between two adults. I personally did not promise to obey my husband. I promised to “love, honor, and cherish.” The meaning of obedience, in the Catholic sense, was given to me while I was on retreat. Many religious orders have vows of “poverty, chastity, and obedience.” To look at these vows is one way to address the vows of Matrimony.
Usually when we speak of poverty, we think about material poverty. This vow was explained to me in terms of spiritual poverty. Those who take this vow acknowledge their complete dependence on God.
I’ll skip chastity. In marriage, this is faithfulness to one another.
The root word for obedience means “to listen.” For a Benedictine, this would mean that a monk/sister listens to what his/her superior or another brother/sister says. If after listening, the brother/sister cannot in good conscience do what has been directed, she/he is still obedient. We answer first and foremost to God.
If we are obedient to our spouse, we will not intentionally do something that will distress our spouse. Without discussing the matter in advance, we will not do something that we know our spouse would disapprove. It is a matter of honor and respect for each other.
Usually when we speak of poverty, we think about material poverty. This vow was explained to me in terms of spiritual poverty. Those who take this vow acknowledge their complete dependence on God.
I’ll skip chastity. In marriage, this is faithfulness to one another.
The root word for obedience means “to listen.” For a Benedictine, this would mean that a monk/sister listens to what his/her superior or another brother/sister says. If after listening, the brother/sister cannot in good conscience do what has been directed, she/he is still obedient. We answer first and foremost to God.
If we are obedient to our spouse, we will not intentionally do something that will distress our spouse. Without discussing the matter in advance, we will not do something that we know our spouse would disapprove. It is a matter of honor and respect for each other.
S
sanctamaria17
Guest
Well, he should say something but he can’t stop her from going! She’s not his teenage daughter.
I think the issue is of respecting the husband, respecting his role in the family and what he does for the family (whether it’s working or if he’s a SAHD or whatever). Let him take care of things that the wife isn’t doing. Not badmouthing him to other people. Not correcting him or telling him he did it “wrong” if he’s bathing the kids and volunteered to do so (but doesn’t have a lot of experience). Letting him take care of the family and expecting him to be a man, not a little boy.
I didn’t see obey, I saw submit, but I am thinking of Ephesians 5:22, haven’t seen a lot of other verses
. Also, I do think we need to take some things into context. St. Paul did start as a Jewish man in the first century. Jewish women and Greek women (his main audience) had very different roles back then (Roman women had more independence than either Greek or Jewish women).
Catholic vows, you have to love, honor, cherish and be faithful to each other and be open to children. “Obey” is in the Protestant vows (I believe that was started by King Henry VIII, correct me if I’m wrong). It’s the same as “giving a bride away”, it’s done but it isn’t theologically sound (though, due to local custom, a father is allowed to escort the bride down the aisle, but we don’t refer to it as giving her away).
I think the issue is of respecting the husband, respecting his role in the family and what he does for the family (whether it’s working or if he’s a SAHD or whatever). Let him take care of things that the wife isn’t doing. Not badmouthing him to other people. Not correcting him or telling him he did it “wrong” if he’s bathing the kids and volunteered to do so (but doesn’t have a lot of experience). Letting him take care of the family and expecting him to be a man, not a little boy.
I didn’t see obey, I saw submit, but I am thinking of Ephesians 5:22, haven’t seen a lot of other verses
. Also, I do think we need to take some things into context. St. Paul did start as a Jewish man in the first century. Jewish women and Greek women (his main audience) had very different roles back then (Roman women had more independence than either Greek or Jewish women).Catholic vows, you have to love, honor, cherish and be faithful to each other and be open to children. “Obey” is in the Protestant vows (I believe that was started by King Henry VIII, correct me if I’m wrong). It’s the same as “giving a bride away”, it’s done but it isn’t theologically sound (though, due to local custom, a father is allowed to escort the bride down the aisle, but we don’t refer to it as giving her away).
W
whatevergirl
Guest
I hear what you’re saying, Julianna. I don’t ‘ask permission’ from my husband, like our children do of us. But, when making decisions that will affect our family in some way, my dh and I consult one another, to make sure what we’re doing is wise, and respectful of the family. For example, if my husband wanted to go visit his mother in PA, he would consult me. He wouldn’t just book his flight, without a care to what I think…because he’s ‘the man of the household.’ There is a mutual respect always, and without the mutual respect, marriages will hit more rocks than smooth (common) ground.In scenario #2…he did not give a reason. He said, “no”. It sounds like a “father/daughter” relationship vs. husband/wife. How sad, that a woman in 2008 has to “ask permission” if she can have money, and “ask permssion” to go out to lunch with some girlfriends.
Scenario #2 is a true story.
Scenario #1 happens all the time. Just go on HGTV and count the number of woman who want to remove panelling from their living room, and get rid of the “old” barcolounger. Any real estate agent will tell you, if you see panneling in a living room your house will sit there. This is where a woman should have some say. Especially if she does all the cooking, cleaning and child care. If she works outside the home, she makes money and therefore can contribute, should DH want a man-cave type room.
But to simply say, “NO”…not happening. I am my husband’s wife, not his daughter. My husband knew from the gitgo, when it came to house hunting, we were going to select a home that had a semi formal room AND a family room. We dividied up the house, he did the kitchen, he does all the cooking, he did the tv room, I did the living room, dining room and together we are re-doing our bedroom. I chose the drapes, he chose the wall color.
There are men out there "who take charge of EVERYTHING, and the wife has no say. Yes, in the 21st century there are men who take “obedience to the 9th degree”.
Why should he obey me? He didn’t, he said, “ok, then we need to purchase a home where I can put the barcolounger.” I agreed, and we did.
I have never in my 27 yrs of marriage, “asked” him if I could go to lunch with my friends…I never “asked” him for $10.00. I worked outside the home, I made money too…so that wasn’t happening. I handle the finances.
In scenario #2…the wife had NO IDEA what was coming in or going out. How pathetic is that? My DH and I sit together once a month and go over the finances…he knows what is coming and going out. If I get hit by a bus, he will know where everything is. Will wife in scenario #2 know what to do? I suspect she will go out and find another man to take care of her and her children. How sad.
I think we really need to beware of absolutes in this type of interpretation. It’s not 1915 anymore…and I am thankful for that.
I have a few friends who have to ‘ask’ their husbands for $5 sadly, simply to go to Starbucks or something with me. Some are Catholic. I don’t think that the husband has a firm understanding of what obedience means…it doesn’t mean ‘to dictate.’ And for the wife, it doesn’t mean you’re treated like a child. But, we can only pray for the marriages out there who are lost in translation.
D
DebChris
Guest
C
Coder
Guest
I’m a male.
Why do you say that it means “husbands rule the household”? The Bible has deep spiritual truths the meaning of which must be contemplated as we seek to follow Jesus in our daily lives.
I think that God may be telling wives to trust their husbands perhaps especially in areas where the husband expresses motivation such as ways to support the family. The wife can certainly also lovingly help to guide her husband if she thinks he is not thinking correctly about something. I think part of the wisdom here is that cooperation is often more effective in accomplishing goals than debating about the perfect path. Jesus tells us that those who take to the plow and keep looking back are not fit for the Kingdom of God. Less arguing, more moving forward.
Another aspect of this may be marital relations. St. Paul says it is better for a man to marry than to burn. A husband should also abstain as needed (e.g NFP). I think the point is that a wife should not unduly deny her husband. Maybe some wives who have no interest might go weeks or even months without relations.
I do not think that being submissive relates to daily details as though the husband is the “boss” of the wife. She has equal dignity. I think being submissive relates to the bigger picture. If your wife requests that you mow the lawn and take out the trash, do it out of love.
A
ac_claire
Guest
Ah, ok. Thanks, I didn’t know any of this!
J
Julianna
Guest
Did you ever wonder why? I would ask. I did ask. The answer was “he is in charge of the money.”I hear what you’re saying, Julianna. I don’t ‘ask permission’ from my husband, like our children do of us. But, when making decisions that will affect our family in some way, my dh and I consult one another, to make sure what we’re doing is wise, and respectful of the family. For example, if my husband wanted to go visit his mother in PA, he would consult me. He wouldn’t just book his flight, without a care to what I think…because he’s ‘the man of the household.’ There is a mutual respect always, and without the mutual respect, marriages will hit more rocks than smooth (common) ground.
I** have a few friends who have to ‘ask’ their husbands for $5 sadly, simply to go to Starbucks or something with me**. Some are Catholic. I don’t think that the husband has a firm understanding of what obedience means…it doesn’t mean ‘to dictate.’ And for the wife, it doesn’t mean you’re treated like a child. But, we can only pray for the marriages out there who are lost in translation.
My DH and I have a joint bank account. I have a Visa check card, and he has a Visa check card from the same account. I wonder why your friends don’t. If they are working outside the home, number 1, they shouldn’t have to ask him for money for a lunch or a coffee, period. If she is a SAHM mom, she should have access to all the finances and know what goes in and comes out.
A wife who does not have her name on the title to a car, a home or deeded land, or a bank account in a marriage, is a total idiot. Sorry so harsh, but she is setting herself up for trouble. A wife who does not where the life insurance, car insurance, homeowners insurance policies are…is asking for trouble. A wife who does not have a credit score or credit in “her own name” is asking for trouble.
Look at all the divorce disasters…even on this board. Hubby left for his secretary, his name is on everything, the wife has been a SAHM for 15 years, no education, no money, nothing is in her name, married right out of high school. It happens everyday and it shouldn’t.
This is where some men take the “obey” too far. And use the Bible to back it up. The women think that “obey” is just that “obey” everything and are guilted into believing that is what God wants.
If a woman is smart, she will get a post high school education, she will work somewhere for awhile. If after marriage, she wants to stay home and raise the kiddos…great. Just make sure your “name” is on everything. It’s not to expect divorce, the same would happen if tragedy struck. A wife needs to know what is going on with the finances, period.
A wife asking for 5 bucks to go have coffee with friends is ludacris.
J
JRKH
Guest
The post above about having joint checking account etc. reminded me of when my Wife and I got married. Second time for each of us.
When she went to work after our wedding and moving her from CA to OH, She told me that she wanted to handle her own money, have her own checking acct. (her first husband was “in charge” and was a spendthrift and a philanderer.)
Anyway, my response was, “Fine”. We divided up the bills and that was that.
Several years later she retired and ever since, “I’ve been in Charge”. We’ve never had a single problem.
If I had made a fuss about only needing one checking acct it would only have caused her discomfort and accomplished nothing. After a couple of years, it was obvious that we both felt the same way about handling money etc. After that one Checking acct was fine.
Trust and Understanding is key in these things
Peace
James
When she went to work after our wedding and moving her from CA to OH, She told me that she wanted to handle her own money, have her own checking acct. (her first husband was “in charge” and was a spendthrift and a philanderer.)
Anyway, my response was, “Fine”. We divided up the bills and that was that.
Several years later she retired and ever since, “I’ve been in Charge”. We’ve never had a single problem.
If I had made a fuss about only needing one checking acct it would only have caused her discomfort and accomplished nothing. After a couple of years, it was obvious that we both felt the same way about handling money etc. After that one Checking acct was fine.
Trust and Understanding is key in these things
Peace
James
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