Obedience to Husbands?

[DebChris]

Talking about bank accounts may or may not taking this thread off track. Money is an area that causes problems in many families.
I like a suggestion made by Alexander Stoddard in her book, Living Beautifully Together. She suggests that each partner have an individual checking account and that there also be a household account. It is a suggestion that I know would have minimized arguments related to money in my own marriage.
I learned from my mother the importance of having or instead of and between names on the household account. When my father was in Korea, she had to have him sign checks and return them to her before she could buy anything for the family. This was not a matter of his trying to control her. It was simply an error made when they first set up the bank accounts.
I like a plaque that was on the wall in my mother-in-law’s house.
Woman was not made from man’s head to be above him,
Nor from his foot to be beneath him.
Woman was made from man’s side to walk beside him,
and under his arm to be protected by him.

 

[savienu]

I guess I’m very blessed- my husband doesn’t ask me to do unreasonable things. We have a joint checking and both know about the finances. He would never expect me to ask to go for $10 or to go hang out with my friends, but I WOULD ask him, out of respect. We’re a team; we’re one. I wouldn’t just do my own thing. I wouldn’t want him to do that to me, so why would I do it to him?

 

[whatevergirl]

Did you ever wonder why? I would ask. I did ask. The answer was “he is in charge of the money.”

My DH and I have a joint bank account. I have a Visa check card, and he has a Visa check card from the same account. I wonder why your friends don’t. If they are working outside the home, number 1, they shouldn’t have to ask him for money for a lunch or a coffee, period. If she is a SAHM mom, she should have access to all the finances and know what goes in and comes out.

A wife who does not have her name on the title to a car, a home or deeded land, or a bank account in a marriage, is a total idiot. Sorry so harsh, but she is setting herself up for trouble. A wife who does not where the life insurance, car insurance, homeowners insurance policies are…is asking for trouble. A wife who does not have a credit score or credit in “her own name” is asking for trouble.

Look at all the divorce disasters…even on this board. Hubby left for his secretary, his name is on everything, the wife has been a SAHM for 15 years, no education, no money, nothing is in her name, married right out of high school. It happens everyday and it shouldn’t.

This is where some men take the “obey” too far. And use the Bible to back it up. The women think that “obey” is just that “obey” everything and are guilted into believing that is what God wants.

If a woman is smart, she will get a post high school education, she will work somewhere for awhile. If after marriage, she wants to stay home and raise the kiddos…great. Just make sure your “name” is on everything. It’s not to expect divorce, the same would happen if tragedy struck. A wife needs to know what is going on with the finances, period.

A wife asking for 5 bucks to go have coffee with friends is ludacris.

agreed times 20.

 

[whatevergirl]

I guess I’m very blessed- my husband doesn’t ask me to do unreasonable things. We have a joint checking and both know about the finances. He would never expect me to ask to go for $10 or to go hang out with my friends, but I WOULD ask him, out of respect. We’re a team; we’re one. I wouldn’t just do my own thing. I wouldn’t want him to do that to me, so why would I do it to him?

I think for medium to larger purchases, or events that are being planned, etc…but my husband and I don’t keep tabs on when we’re stopping for coffee during the week, etc…that has always seemed to be, to me, a bit on the excessive side. (I am not saying you do this, savienu) Just saying. lol

I agree with what you are saying…truthfully, it all boils down to trust. My husband trusts that I’m not going to make outlandish choices, excluding him from life altering decisions. Same for him with me. We are one another’s best friends. I think without trust, submission would be a hard thing–for either spouse.

 

[DebChris]

I think for medium to larger purchases, or events that are being planned, etc…but my husband and I don’t keep tabs on when we’re stopping for coffee during the week, etc…that has always seemed to be, to me, a bit on the excessive side. (I am not saying you do this, savienu) Just saying. lol

I agree with what you are saying…truthfully, it all boils down to trust. My husband trusts that I’m not going to make outlandish choices, excluding him from life altering decisions. Same for him with me. We are one another’s best friends. I think without trust, submission would be a hard thing–for either spouse.

The reason Alexandra Stoddard recommended personal checking accounts was not an issue of trust. It makes it possible to buy gifts for each other. Without trust, you are always looking for the betrayal. Marriage involves vulnerability and trusting that you will not be hurt by the other.
When it comes to money, it means that the man does not buy a car or stereo system without discussing the matter with his wife. I for my part would not join a gym without prior discussion. I don’t need to discuss a dress or other clothing purchase made with the money I earned, especially if the reason for buying the dress is to look nice for him.

 

[savienu]

The reason Alexandra Stoddard recommended personal checking accounts was not an issue of trust. It makes it possible to buy gifts for each other. Without trust, you are always looking for the betrayal. Marriage involves vulnerability and trusting that you will not be hurt by the other.
When it comes to money, it means that the man does not buy a car or stereo system without discussing the matter with his wife. I for my part would not join a gym without prior discussion. I don’t need to discuss a dress or other clothing purchase made with the money I earned, especially if the reason for buying the dress is to look nice for him.

And what if a woman is a housewife and doesn’t earn her own money? And I guess because my husband and I don’t have a lot of money, that must be why we discuss these things. I may buy a salad without asking him, but that would only be because I’m at work and he’s home. Anything more than that, and I would ask.

 

[JRKH]

To a certain extent everything that has been said so far is both right and wrong. It depends on the specific individuals involved. Some Men wish greater control, some women want less, and vice-a-versa. That is why the discernment process (dating) is so important. During that process it is necessary to determine how good a fit the two of you are for each other in so many ways.

To carry this to a rediculous extreme, if a sadist married a masocist(sp) they could both be “happy”. I know it’s a stupid example so we won’t discuss that. The point is that how certain individuals fit together and function is highly individual.

Like I said earlier, we didn’t “need” two checking accts, but I understood why she wanted her own. That understanding, along with my trust in her, made it a non-issue.

Peace
James

 

[DebChris]

And what if a woman is a housewife and doesn’t earn her own money? And I guess because my husband and I don’t have a lot of money, that must be why we discuss these things. I may buy a salad without asking him, but that would only be because I’m at work and he’s home. Anything more than that, and I would ask.

I remember my parents only having joint accounts. This is likewise what I had. When I worked, I put all my money in savings. I had the idea of husband as provider and believed that regardless of how much money we had, my earnings needed to go into savings. Nobody knows when they might lose a job. It comes from watching my own parents. We lived on my father’s income. He worked all the overtime he could and that money all went into savings. With the savings, he was able to pave the driveway, buy a new washer and dryer for my mother, etc. before a major Boeing layoff. Were I do it again, I would have each of us with our own accounts regardless of how much money we had. There are budgeting recommendations that say pay yourself first. It is basically each having a personal allowance or discretionary funds. I realize that Alexandra Stoddard is richer than I. Her budget has only 70% going for household needs:
Household budget 70%
Decorating and Art 6% This would include furnishings
Non-Essentials 5% Books, stationary, flowers,etc
Gift giving,entertainment, holidays 5%
Vacation/Travel 7%
Savings 5%
Miscellaneous 2%
I see this budget as an ideal (after the 10% tithe). It is still something I would like to achieve. I do see myself following it when I finish school and start working again.
Returning to the subject of this thread, if we are talking about obedience and submission to one another as signs of respect and love, it is the couple working together who decides what works for them. In my own relationship, it might have minimized many problems.
My husband and I married while the effects of that Boeing layoff had a grip on the economy. His income fell short of the bills he owed (college loans, rent, car) and what we had coming in. I used the money I earned babysitting to pay for food. Spouses who love and respect each other work together to meet family needs.

 

[whatevergirl]

The reason Alexandra Stoddard recommended personal checking accounts was not an issue of trust. It makes it possible to buy gifts for each other. Without trust, you are always looking for the betrayal. Marriage involves vulnerability and trusting that you will not be hurt by the other.
When it comes to money, it means that the man does not buy a car or stereo system without discussing the matter with his wife. I for my part would not join a gym without prior discussion. I don’t need to discuss a dress or other clothing purchase made with the money I earned, especially if the reason for buying the dress is to look nice for him.

Yes…agreed. I work, we used to have separate accounts, but now they’re joint. My husband will tell me after the fact sometimes, when he has bought a new fishing rod or clothes for work. I usually tell him I’m going on a shopping spree beforehand. He says he forgets, lol. But, even if a wife isn’t working…she should have equal access to the account. Maybe that is a better way of wording it.

 

[DebChris]

Yes…agreed. I work, we used to have separate accounts, but now they’re joint. My husband will tell me after the fact sometimes, when he has bought a new fishing rod or clothes for work. I usually tell him I’m going on a shopping spree beforehand. He says he forgets, lol. But, even if a wife isn’t working…she should have equal access to the account. Maybe that is a better way of wording it.

Before debit cards, each of us carried a blank check in our wallets. If needed, we could write a check for a maximum of $20. That amount would be subtracted from the available balance until a check was actually written. Then the actual amount would be subtracted.
I agree that equal access is important. My mother taught me this lesson when she spoke about the importance of having an or account instead of an and account. She was totally responsible for the family while my father was in Korea but did not have access to the money. It is important to note that my father trusted my mother and it was never his intention to control her. They just didn’t know any differently when they married and the situation was corrected when he returned. In many families, it is the wife who manages the budget. I heard many stories from men who joked about handing over their paychecks and asking “the Mrs.” how much they could have.
Resentment develops when one partner is kept out of the loop and the other uses monetary power for control.

 

[whatevergirl]

Before debit cards, each of us carried a blank check in our wallets. If needed, we could write a check for a maximum of $20. That amount would be subtracted from the available balance until a check was actually written. Then the actual amount would be subtracted.
I agree that equal access is important. My mother taught me this lesson when she spoke about the importance of having an or account instead of an and account. She was totally responsible for the family while my father was in Korea but did not have access to the money. It is important to note that my father trusted my mother and it was never his intention to control her. They just didn’t know any differently when they married and the situation was corrected when he returned. In many families, it is the wife who manages the budget. I heard many stories from men who joked about handing over their paychecks and asking “the Mrs.” how much they could have.
Resentment develops when one partner is kept out of the loop and the other uses monetary power for control.

I agree–I often wonder why people change so much after marriage. I have a friend who dated her now husband for a few years before marrying him. He was always so kind, gentle, warm hearted. He claimed to admire her independence. Soon after they wed, he took over everything…didn’t want her to work or pursue her masters. It really was a strange turn around. Granted, maybe he did exhibit signs that we all didn’t see…but, she claims he did a complete about face. I wonder why people change like this, after marriage–become controlling, especially relating to money.

But, thankfully, it works in my household…I actually handle the finances…My husband does not want to be the CFO of our home…but he’s the CEO, so it works for us.

 

[Marc_Aupiais]

Interesting thread you’ve formed,
It is good to get past the exoskeleton of the theological truth into true manifestation of love and matrimonial truth.

I have yet to have a wedding, so I cannot comment- I can say this is of note, benefit and significance, enjoyably to read.

Sad to hear about the man there changing much

I wish such things never occurred, the saints are my model for marriage- they are beautiful in it.

Money should always be a tool. , never a forceful element of one man’s will. Oddly- John Paul says that the statement- about a husband dominating is a statement that lust would occur from that period on in humanity- and is not a command to eve, but there is the theology, which I will not need repeat as the thread has already viewed it.

 

[JRKH]

Before debit cards, each of us carried a blank check in our wallets. If needed, we could write a check for a maximum of $20. That amount would be subtracted from the available balance until a check was actually written. Then the actual amount would be subtracted.
I agree that equal access is important. My mother taught me this lesson when she spoke about the importance of having an or account instead of an and account. She was totally responsible for the family while my father was in Korea but did not have access to the money. It is important to note that my father trusted my mother and it was never his intention to control her. They just didn’t know any differently when they married and the situation was corrected when he returned. In many families, it is the wife who manages the budget. I heard many stories from men who joked about handing over their paychecks and asking “the Mrs.” how much they could have.

That is how my folks did it. My Dad had an eighth grade education and very poor reading skills. My mom had a “business high school” education, with training and experience in secretrarial and book-keeping. It just made sense the she handle the money.
They raised 5 kids on an “unskilled” “Blue Collar” salary. I don’t think there was ever any “disagreements” about money. As a matter of fact, I remember mom saying that only once in their marriage did they ever buy each other a birthday or Christmas “Gift”. They just thought is wasn’t necessary. They had other places to put their money.
You might gather from this that I had a real fine example of monitary responsibility.

Resentment develops when one partner is kept out of the loop and the other uses monetary power for control.

And we see it ALL too Often!!

Peace
James

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Paul gives a wife two obligations to her husband: respect him and submit to him. If this were not clear enough, the metaphor of Christ and the Church is used. The wife is to act toward the husband as the Church would act toward Christ, and the husband is to act toward the wife as Christ would act toward the Church. The former entails obedience and deeply felt respect, the latter entails sacrifice and self-giving.

We should be very weary of dismissing this very clear teaching in favor of contemporary worldly “equality” (i.e. androgyny). Such views are clearly false, made obvious both by revelation and natural theology.

:clapping:

 

[Julianna]

:clapping:

Looks like you missed the last ten or so posts…

I missed your comment about the wife who asked her husband for money to go to lunch with friends. She said she obeyed her husband when he told her, no.

Is this an example of obedience?

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Looks like you missed the last ten or so posts…

I missed your comment about the wife who asked her husband for money to go to lunch with friends. She said she obeyed her husband when he told her, no.

Is this an example of obedience?

Maybe it all depends on his reasons for saying no.

 

[sanctamaria17]

$10.00 for lunch with the girls and he said no?!

Unless they were EXTREMELY poor, that sounds really off to me…

Sorry, but once you’re married, it doesn’t matter who’s the breadwinner. Assets are SHARED.

 

[DebChris]

$10.00 for lunch with the girls and he said no?!

Unless they were EXTREMELY poor, that sounds really off to me…

Sorry, but once you’re married, it doesn’t matter who’s the breadwinner. Assets are SHARED.

I need to go back to the particular post. Was it because of the money or was it a different reason? There was a time when I wanted to go to a conference. My husband told me no. I canceled my plans. It turned out that something else came up that week and I would not have been able to go any way.
My husband was not the type of man to tell me you may or may not do this or that. Besides I can be pretty stubborn. In fact, early in our marriage, it would be he who would tell me to spend some time with my friends. I had an image of marriage, based on soap operas, that was rather limiting. This was far from my experience. I was the one involved in sports and this might mean going out for a meal after a karate tournament or to the club with members of my Reserve unit. I refused to dance with anybody else until he arrived. My husband did not dance, but I liked to.
I agree that assets need to be shared. I follow the Benedictine definition of obedience which stresses listening. It is still obedience to do something different as a matter of conscience.
I like the message, posted earlier, that comes from a homily given by my pastor. Obedience is not a requirement of love; it is a response to love. We defer because we choose to, not because we have to.
It was shortly before our first wedding anniversary. I went roller skating with some friends from college. Before leaving, my husband told me not to get hurt. I came home and climbed into bed. I waited until morning before telling him I needed to go to the emergency room to have my hands x-rayed. At the rink, I had been told nobody sprains anything. It is a break or nothing. I did manage to sprain both hands in a fall. Imagine breastfeeding with both hands wrapped.

 

[ac_claire]

Thanks for the discussion, all!

I think some of the replies have gotten too wrapped up in this theoretical situation of the husband giving the wife $5 for a coffee run with friends. If possible I’d like to move away from that back to the OP, and then the questions I had later as well.

And are wives morally bound to obedience once the marriage vows are entered into? At this point, does disobedience become actually sinful? Also, what if the husband is being clearly unreasonable (although not asking anything immoral or illegal)? Does the moral obligation to submit and obey- if there is indeed one- still apply?

 

[DebChris]

This question needs clarification. How is unreasonable being defined? A woman does not need to be obedient to anything that can be construed as mental, verbal, or psychological abuse.
Once when I was in a laundromat, a woman came in who was definitely ill. I do not know if she chose to do the laundry or because her husband asked her to. I just remember her adamantly insisting it was her job. A loving husband would have insisted she take care of herself and get the sleep that it was so obvious to others that she needed.
How can you care for others unless you first care for yourself?