Obedience to the Pope

[annad347]

Well if you persistently pray and act like that, search and strive to discover the Truth, you will discover it.

That’s what I said… prayers with the Holy Spirit is a very powerful gift God gave us to communicate with Him… we shouldn’t be afraid to use it.

However there were people that thought they discovered Truth and thought that God led them. For example I would consider many faithful Muslims to be deceived even if they have best intentions.

again, more people who’s hearts, minds and prayers I know nothing about… nor do I know God’s plans for their lives.

Basically that what God has not done is not good.

Who said God didn’t do it.

If any person ever defines himself as the Church, he is either lying or deceived.

I didn’t define the Church as a person, you did. Everyone you mentioned who is the Church is a person.

Church is collection of faithful who hold True Faith and submit to correct authority.

and FYI, the only reason you accept what they say as the truth is because of the Holy Spirit with-in you, you recognizes the truth of the Holy Spirit with-in them.

When they say something that isn’t God’s truth, because, you have the Holy Spirit with-in you, you will recognize the lies they are telling. John 16:12-13.

That’s why you will know when you should or shouldn’t obey the Pope.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Who said God didn’t do it.

Scripture reveals that it is real possibility to go to Hell. Therefore God didn’t make it that way hence it isn’t good.

I didn’t define the Church as a person, you did.

I said Church is Bride of Christ but not human person.

and FYI, the only reason you accept what they say as the truth is because of the Holy Spirit with-in you, you recognizes the truth of the Holy Spirit with-in them.

Of course, but Holy Spirit gave us our intelligence. With reason I can find out something for sure. Emotions supply that, but in themselves they are not above reason neither are they comparable to it.

When they say something that isn’t God’s truth, because, you have the Holy Spirit with-in you, you will recognize the lies they are telling. John 16:12-13.

That was promised to Apostles who keep teaching of Christ in the Church. It wasn’t promised to every single one of us. It was promise to Apostles and their successors (Bishops).

again, more people who’s hearts, minds and prayers I know nothing about… nor do I know God’s plans for their lives.

We can agree that from our point of view, them being Christian instead wouldn’t be a bad thing, correct?

That’s what I said… prayers with the Holy Spirit is a very powerful gift God gave us to communicate with Him… we shouldn’t be afraid to use it.

Well that’s all true, but God also gave us reason. Our feelings are subject to going against reason and against Truth… in the end does one feel joy when they fast? When they do penance? Yet that is God’s will too. Hence feelings are ultimately just feelings.

I once met Mormon missionaries and their only argument was “read the book of Mormon and you will feel that it is true, you will feel happiness and God”. But that was a weak argument because as we know, Satan can disguise himself as Christ. We shouldn’t be arrogant enough to challenge that. (just to be clear I am saying that if I did indeed try to go just because my feelings tell me something I would be arrogant… not that you are, not that anyone else is)

 

[annad347]

I said Church is Bride of Christ but not human person.

You also said it was infallible, so how is something that is not a person telling me infallible truths?

I once met Mormon missionaries and their only argument was “read the book of Mormon and you will feel that it is true, you will feel happiness and God”. But that was a weak argument because as we know, Satan can disguise himself as Christ. We shouldn’t be arrogant enough to challenge that. (just to be clear I am saying that if I did indeed try to go just because my feelings tell me something I would be arrogant… not that you are, not that anyone else is)

and I say unless you accept the Holy Spirit with-in you, which I know do (its easy to see you have the Holy Spirit in you) you will not be able to know that those who are in the Bride of the Church are telling you the truth about God.

I also say, I don’t know the mind, hearts and prayers of other people, I can’t answer why God has some of us follow different paths nor can I say they are ignoring God’s truth…obedience to the Pope.

and thank you for saying I’m not arrogant… I don’t think you are either.

That was promised to Apostles who keep teaching of Christ in the Church. It wasn’t promised to every single one of us. It was promise to Apostles and their successors (Bishops).

this part of our conversation I think (yea, happens to me a lot) is going off topic, cause now we are discussing the power of The Holy Spirit with-in us. Whether or not Catholic believe they have Holy Spirit with-in them, the power to use the Spirit or not, and if not then how do they know they are following the truth of God… totally different topic

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Whether or not Catholic believe they have Holy Spirit with-in them, the power to use the Spirit or not, and if not then how do they know they are following the truth of God… totally different topic

It relates because if we believe that in each of us lies full authority and/or infallibility that Apostles had to teach, then there is no need for Bishops to be successors of Apostles. As Paul says we believe some were chosen to be prophets, some teachers etc… and teachers are Bishops who can relay their authority onto others but ultimately that authority is theirs.

I also say, I don’t know the mind, hearts and prayers of other people, I can’t answer why God has some of us follow different paths nor can I say they are ignoring God’s truth…obedience to the Pope.

Perhaps they aren’t ignoring, perhaps there is genuine inability to access the Truth. My point is that our Lord said He is Truth, Way and Life and that no one comes to Father except Him. That does not mean our Lord can not bring people of other religions to Him, but that it is always better to be with Him if possible. Even Christians can fail at doing so, as I know far too well.

and thank you for saying I’m not arrogant… I don’t think you are either.

Thank you, but my pride is my weakness … one of my many.

and I say unless you accept the Holy Spirit with-in you, which I know do (its easy to see you have the Holy Spirit in you) you will not be able to know that those who are in the Bride of the Church are telling you the truth about God.

Thank you. I think we agree on that. Holy Spirit shows us the way. My point is largely that Holy Spirit does so through many things, not just feelings. But I guess that’s something we agree on.

 

[neophyte]

Are we, as Catholics, obliged to accept whatever the Pope tells us, since he is the leader of our church?

Of course not.

 

[AHapka]

Aside from a specific order to sin, we should always give religious obedience to his views.

If he were to lay down a golden calf and my feet and tell me to worship it, it would be legitimate and proper to say no.

If he were to suggest that I should pray two rosaries on Thursday for xyz intention, I should be obedient to him as my religious superior.

 

[Polak]

It might seem like a strange question but what do you mean by “tells us”? How we are to respond to what the Pope “tells us” depends on how he does it and what he is talking about. Perhaps you could give some examples of what you are thinking about.

Literally anything the Pope says (or writes). It could be something he says in a sermon, or a response he gives to a reporter’s question on a particular issue.

 

[acanonlawyer]

Literally anything the Pope says (or writes). It could be something he says in a sermon, or a response he gives to a reporter’s question on a particular issue.

Then it all depends on what he says and how he says it. Some things a Pope says are of no consequence. Other things are.

I would give little weight to a response to a reporter’s question. I would give great weight to what he says in an “apostolic constitution.” So, the format of the statement gives some indication of whether or not it is binding on us. What really matters is going to be delivered from a prepared text and/or issued in writing

The topic also matters. If he writes to a soccer team about the benefits of friendly competition or to an association of cat lovers about the wonders of the feline species, then I can rest assured that I really don’t have to pay attention to what he says there. If he writes a letter about canon law, then I better see what he says and if I have to change what I do because of it.

Dan