Obelisk on St. Peter's Square

[Sinke]

Why is pagan obelisk in the middle of the square of St. Peter? Altough I understand it was adopted as place of The Relic of The Holy Cross, I find it difficult to understand why this thing wasn’t destroyed- as Bible seems to command us in Exodus 23:24 , Exodus 34:13, Deu. 7:5 , Deu. 12:3 ,Deu 16:22 etc.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

This might help:

One source says it has quarried at Aswan in the reign of Nebkaure Amenemhet II (B.C. 19th Century), and erected at the pylon of the Temple of the Sun in Heliopolis. Another source says that although it’s unknown when it was quarried but it was erected at the Julian Forum in Alexandria by the order of Octavianus (the first Roman Emperor Augustus [reigned B.C. 27 - A.D. 14]).

This obelisk, like two others Esquilino Obelisk and Quirinale Obelisk, does not have the usual hieroglyphics, and no one knows where it originally came from or who created it. There are various opinions why it has no hieroglyphics; because the Egyptian Pharaoh suddenly dead, or because the Roman Emperor made it, …

In A.D. 37 (40?), the then Roman Emperor Caligula transported it to Rome, and erected it in the Caligula Circus (later the Nero Circus (Circus Gai et Neronis), or the Vatican Circus). This site is the side of current St. Peter’s Cathedral.

The time elapsed …, the then Pope Sixtus V [reigned 1585-1590] directed the obelisk to be re-erected at the center of the colonnaded square, so-called St. Peter’s Square in 1586, in front of the “new” Basilica of St. Peter, which was under construction at that time. It still remains here today.

Except this obelisk, all the obelisks in Rome toppled down in the Middle Ages. The Egyptologist Labib Habachi writes a reason in his book; “Legend has it that in the Vatican Circus innumerable Christians, including St. Peter, were put to death and that the reason this obelisk was not later overturned as were all the others in Rome was that it was looked upon as the last witness to the martyrdom of St. Peter.”

 

[otjm]

There is also a tad bit of danger in tqaking a comment, or even several comments from Scripture and presuming that they of necessity have the same weight of moral authority today that they had 2500, 3000 or more years ago. It would do well to remember that we as followers of Christ are not bound to every law of Moses.

 

[juliamajor]

what are we the Taliban - so what if its pagan-it isn’t a god its a monument.I love the art of the ancients and wouldn’t like to see anything of beauty destroyed-thank God a lot of the Popes didn’t feel that way you do .Some of the world’s greatest art comes from the pagan past.

 

[LilyM]

what are we the Taliban - so what if its pagan-it isn’t a god its a monument.I love the art of the ancients and wouldn’t like to see anything of beauty destroyed-thank God a lot of the Popes didn’t feel that way you do .Some of the world’s greatest art comes from the pagan past.

Amen! Where would we be if the Popes had destroyed or removed Rome’s pagan artifacts like you’re suggesting that they do with the obelisk? An fair few of Rome’s churches are in fact pagan temples that have been converted to Christian use. So can anything be converted to Christ’s glory - even the obelisk.

That Popes even dared to remove stone from the Colosseum in the past (used in other buildings) is a crime against history and our faith - a desecration of a site where Christians were martyred!

 

[Leopard]

…That Popes even dared to remove stone from the Colosseum in the past (used in other buildings) is a crime against history and our faith - a desecration of a site where Christians were martyred!

I would hesitate before accusing any popes of being criminals for acting within their authority. Their actions were not dissimilar to those of legitimate civil authorities today who must make decisions about removing materials from unused or underused buildings, even historically significant buildings, so that either the land or the materials may be put to better use. One may as well accuse those authorities today who ordered the rehabilitation of the World Trade Center site, also a site where many people died heriocally, as perpetrating a crime against history.

 

[LilyM]

I would hesitate before accusing any popes of being criminals for acting within their authority. Their actions were not dissimilar to those of legitimate civil authorities today who must make decisions about removing materials from unused or underused buildings, even historically significant buildings, so that either the land or the materials may be put to better use. One may as well accuse those authorities today who ordered the rehabilitation of the World Trade Center site, also a site where many people died heriocally, as perpetrating a crime against history.

It’s different - my understanding is that the WTC site will include a memorial to those who died there. It’d be different if they just ripped materials off the old WTC building without doing anything to acknowledge the significance of the site or the tragedy of the attack on the previous WTC.

 

[Leopard]

It’s different - my understanding is that the WTC site will include a memorial to those who died there. It’d be different if they just ripped materials off the old WTC building without doing anything to acknowledge the significance of the site or the tragedy of the attack on the previous WTC.

It’s not different as Church also remembers the martyrs of Rome, and both the respective ecclesial and civil authorities would be equally acting within their authority whether any memorials were erected on either site or not.

 

[eliasaph99]

Why is pagan obelisk in the middle of the square of St. Peter? Altough I understand it was adopted as place of The Relic of The Holy Cross, I find it difficult to understand why this thing wasn’t destroyed- as Bible seems to command us in Exodus 23:24 , Exodus 34:13, Deu. 7:5 , Deu. 12:3 ,Deu 16:22 etc.

Because we’re actually the Illuminati. Sheesh… I’ve gotta explain everything…

 

[Church_Militant]

Why is pagan obelisk in the middle of the square of St. Peter? Altough I understand it was adopted as place of The Relic of The Holy Cross, I find it difficult to understand why this thing wasn’t destroyed- as Bible seems to command us in Exodus 23:24 , Exodus 34:13, Deu. 7:5 , Deu. 12:3 ,Deu 16:22 etc.

No New Testament references?

 

[Leopard]

By coincidence, I found something about this obelisk in a book I’ve been reading recently:
The Incredible Book of Vatican Facts and Papal Curiosities:

What is the origin of the Egyptian needle in St. Peter’s Square?

The mightiest Egyptian obelisk in the world stands in St. Peter’s Square, but until a relatively short time ago, a riddle surrounded the great needle. When it was erected in the center of a Rome arena where gladiators used to fight and charioteers raced, Emperor Caligula (whose reign ended in A.D. 41) had a Latin dedication to his mother (Agripina) engraved at the base of the obelisk. Then, almost 1,500 years later, Pope Sixtus V ordered the 320 ton monolith lugged from the ancient arena to its present position in St. Peter’s Square.

But where did the Egyptian needle come from? It bore no hieroglyphics or words of any kind anywhere, so it remained a mystery—until this century, when Professor Filippo Magi, an archeologist, began to wonder about the Latin inscription and why it had been carved on an indented rectangle and not directly on the surface of the obelisk. Then he looked more closely as the slanting rays of the sun hit in such a way as to reveal innumerable little holes, about a quarter of an inch deep, scattered among the Latin words. Could they possibly be what remained of holes that once held the teeth of bronze letters of a previous inscription, letters that Caligula ordered removed to make room for Latin words? Could the archeologist reconstruct the ancient letters just from the positions of the holes? With hundreds of plastic letters made to size, Professor Magi went to work—both guessing and using the principles of cryptography—to solve the puzzle. His detective work paid off. When he broke the riddle and the original inscription could be read, it revealed that the obelisk had been put up in Heliopolis by Caius Cornelius Gallus, a Roman prefect to Egypt who had erected many such monuments to his own glory before he fell into disfavor and committed suicide in 27 B.C.

So it turns out that the obelisk never was connected with pagan worship. It was just a soapbox that some politician used to put his name out for everyone to see, just like those huge “Jesse White, Secretary of State” signs at every drivers license facility in Illinois.

 

[Chris_C]

Lily–

I agree with you. Pagan monuments are transformed in Christ as was the whole Roman world. One small matter, however: it is a common belief that the Colosseum was the site of Christian martyrdoms. I’m not saying it never happened (though that may be true) but if it did, it was rare. What we call the Colosseum, really, the Flavian Amphitheater, was the site of gladitorial games. Most of the martyrdoms that took place in the city of Rome, were conducted in the Circuses: those of Domitian (today’s Piazza Navona) Nero, (by the Vatican) and some in the Circus Maximus, possibly.

The first two Flavians, Vespasian and his son Titus, rejected emperor worship and tolerated Christianity even in their own households. Vespasian’s brother was Christian. The persecutions were reignited with Titus younger brother Domitian (81-96AD). At the time Domitian’s cousin Flavius Clemens was a consul and a Christian.

Interestingly, the really awful stuff, Nero and Domitian excepted, took place not in Rome, but on the edges of the Empire: Lyon, North Africa, Asia Minor etc. And persecution was sporadic. It was not, as some think, three hundred years of persecution. Even before Constantine, cooperation and convergence was taking place. Good historians on this period are Marta Sordi and Fr. Riciotti.

Also, what some of the Renaissance Popes did to the monuments of antiquity is difficult to defend; everyone knows that line: What the Barbarians failed to do the Barbarini took care of!

Pax et bonum,

Christopher Check

 

[The_Cardinal]

I don’t think Sinke was putting forth their views but more or less trying to stress to us how others view it. So taking this question offensivley doesn’t help.

 

[Sinke]

During my youth, I was very much influenced by Fundamentalist propaganda- today I wish to become an apologetic of Catholic Chruch.

In case of obelisk, I wanted to know all what I could find- so I asked this question here not to provoke, but rather educate myself how to defend from this apologetic attack which often comes to question.

The information that obelisk is not of ritual origin is very strong defense, as well as Bible mentioning similar statue used for God’s purposes in Isaiah 19:19.

I wish you Lord’s blessings, and you will be in my prayers.

 

[chewchoo]

Why is pagan obelisk in the middle of the square of St. Peter? Altough I understand it was adopted as place of The Relic of The Holy Cross, I find it difficult to understand why this thing wasn’t destroyed- as Bible seems to command us in Exodus 23:24 , Exodus 34:13, Deu. 7:5 , Deu. 12:3 ,Deu 16:22 etc.

according to the Vatican City book
the obelisk is inestimably valuable from a point of view of history and archeology. it is the 2nd largest in rome.

but it is even more important from a religious POV. it is a “mute witness” to the martyrdom of st. peter, who was crucified close to the obelisk. it was in front of this obelisk that the first mass executions of christians took place.

now it celebrates the triumph of the Cross, the victory of christianity over paganism.

 

[Michael_Wood]

Actually, the reason the early Church adopted many dates from the Pagan holidays was in order to supplant them and force a decision from the growing soul so that there would be no duplicity in worship. It was a very shrewd move in order to deny any rememberance of former god’s under a past remembered date. Very much like deposing a former King and sitting in his very throne; rather than establishing another throne and ruling side-by-side or destroying the old throne and building anew. This emphasizes the Spiritual Truth that Christ does NOT destroy, but Redeems and Transforms! What a beautiful way to communicate this!
Also, as a point of order to the person who said all the other obelisks in Roma were destroyed;this isn’t true actually. In the center of the Piazza del Popolo there still stands the nearly 5000 year old obelisk erected for Rameses II, the setting of which was overseen by none other than Moses Himself! (It is of course mounted by a Cross)! You may recall the reference if you ever saw “The Ten Commandments” movie by Cecil B. DeMille. (Mr. DeMille was somewhat of a stickler for Biblically accurate facts in his films and this was no exception). You can actually see this obelisk when you go to Roma today,(or, if you aren’t in Europe you can Goole Map it and zoom in on the sattelite setting and even go to street view. The Egyptian hieroglyphs are clearly visable and readable,( if you read Egyptian).

 

[patrick457]

Actually, the reason the early Church adopted many dates from the Pagan holidays was in order to supplant them and force a decision from the growing soul so that there would be no duplicity in worship. It was a very shrewd move in order to deny any rememberance of former god’s under a past remembered date. Very much like deposing a former King and sitting in his very throne; rather than establishing another throne and ruling side-by-side or destroying the old throne and building anew. This emphasizes the Spiritual Truth that Christ does NOT destroy, but Redeems and Transforms! What a beautiful way to communicate this!

A very, very good point!

Also, as a point of order to the person who said all the other obelisks in Roma were destroyed;this isn’t true actually. In the center of the Piazza del Popolo there still stands the nearly 5000 year old obelisk erected for Rameses II, the setting of which was overseen by none other than Moses Himself! (It is of course mounted by a Cross)! You may recall the reference if you ever saw “The Ten Commandments” movie by Cecil B. DeMille. (Mr. DeMille was somewhat of a stickler for Biblically accurate facts in his films and this was no exception). You can actually see this obelisk when you go to Roma today,(or, if you aren’t in Europe you can Goole Map it and zoom in on the sattelite setting and even go to street view. The Egyptian hieroglyphs are clearly visable and readable,( if you read Egyptian).

Technically, this would be only so if Rameses II (reigned 1279-1213 BC) was indeed the Pharaoh of the Exodus. Popular mind connects Rameses with the Exodus probably due to the fact that he loved to build edifices and was virtually one of the greatest pharaohs who ever lived. However, other pharaohs - some of whom reigned earlier than Rameses - have also been suggested: a few are Thutmose III (1479-1425 BC), Amenhotep II (1427-1401 BC), and even Rameses’ son Merneptah (ca. 1213-1203 BC).

Also, DeMille did do some bit of research, but being the master showman that he is, he doesn’t hesitate to tweak things up to make things more dramatic.
For example, in both his original 1923 and 1956 remake, he depicts the sea being split in front of the Israelites - a device that has been copied ad nauseum ever since (the Biblical account mentions that the sea was split by “a strong east wind”; if the sea parted like DeMille’s, it would have done so from the other side!), conflates the giving of the commandments (Exodus 20) with the giving of the tablets (Exodus 31:15), and conflates the worship of the golden calf with Korah’s rebellion and Israel’s rebellion due to the report of ten of the twelve spies - the result of this is that the (1) sinful Israelites are no longer slaughtered by the Levites - they are hit by lightning or swallowed by the earth, and (2) the cause of the 40-year wandering is no longer due to the Israelites believing ten out of the twelve spies (excluding Joshua and Caleb) sent to survey Canaan, but due to their idol worshipping.

 

[NotWorthy]

Amen! Where would we be if the Popes had destroyed or removed Rome’s pagan artifacts like you’re suggesting that they do with the obelisk? An fair few of Rome’s churches are in fact pagan temples that have been converted to Christian use. So can anything be converted to Christ’s glory - even the obelisk.

There’s a great story that this reminds me of. In the 1st century or two, Christians made pilgrimages to the birthplace of Jesus. This happened until a Roman Emperor decided to place a Pagan Temple at the location and erected a statue of some pagan goddess at the entrance to the cave in order to interfere with the Christians.

A few hundred years later when Christianity was approved, how did the Christians locate the birthplace of Jesus? Simple! All they had to do was locate the statue!!!

 

[patrick457]

There’s a great story that this reminds me of. In the 1st century or two, Christians made pilgrimages to the birthplace of Jesus. This happened until a Roman Emperor decided to place a Pagan Temple at the location and erected a statue of some pagan goddess at the entrance to the cave in order to interfere with the Christians.

A few hundred years later when Christianity was approved, how did the Christians locate the birthplace of Jesus? Simple! All they had to do was locate the statue!!!

The same situation happened in Golgotha! There was a temple dedicated to Venus built over the site before Constantine found it. According to Eusebius, the Emperor Hadrian did it to discourage Christians from visiting the site. Hadrian was busy ‘renovating’ Jerusalem as Aelia Capitolina then as part of his efforts to erase even the merest traces of Jews in the province after the Bar Kochba rebellion (AD 132-136).

Eusebius attributes it to Hadrian’s hatred against Christians, but there is another, more mundane reason for building the temple there: the location was the junction of the main north-south road with one of the two main east-west roads, and was directly adjacent to the forum. The forum itself had been placed, as is traditional in Roman towns, at the junction of the main north-south road with the (other) main east-west road. The temple and forum together took up the entire space between the two main east-west roads.

In fact, one suggestion is that the rotunda surrounding the Tomb itself may be inspired by a rotunda from this earlier temple (temples dedicated to Venus were round, shaped like rotundas). If it is true, as Eusebius says, that Hadrian had built a temple to Venus/Aphrodite here, it was quite probably a round temple.

 

[turtleoompa]

Is everyone missing the point?

Take a look at the obelisk, the cross of the redeemer and savior of the world has been placed upon it by the Church. The obelisk is a silent witness to the triumph of the cross over the pagan religions of the world.

Duh!

Vivat Jesu!