Obeying Allah first then Muhammed!

[Sister_Amy]

Actually the passages say why was not an ayah sent down. In fact, each “verse” of the Qur’an is called an ayah.

And then, if you look at one of these passages, and continue reading, you’ll see a list of the “signs” from Allah which the disbelievers can’t seem to recognize.

And exalted is Allah–I love when people try to quote ayaat to refute Islam; it only works against you.

 

[sharunaku]

There are many ahadith which equate the teachings of Muhammad to the Qur’an, at least from a legal perspective. There are some ayaat which do this as well. When it comes to Islamic law, the saying of Muhammad, if it’s been authenticated, can be equal to an ayah from the Qur’an. Muslims believe that both come from Allah.

The Qur’an is from Allah, directly and verbatim.
The Hadith, i.e., the teachings of Muhammad, come in the words of Muhammad but the essence of it is still part of divine guidance.

When the Messenger of Allah commands you to do something, what are you going to say, this isn’t from Allah? When it comes from Allah’s Messenger? It’s part of Islam to obey Allah and to obey the Messenger.

Similarly, how do Jews obey Allah without obeying Moses? I won’t say the same about Christians for obvious reasons, but from my point of view the logic is similarly sound.

jews and christians doesnt obey allah.

 

[dzheremi]

I (try to) obey Allah, just not Islam’s recension of Him.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Allah = God.

 

[dzheremi]

Math is fun, isn’t it?

 

[jakasaki]

Actually the passages say why was not an ayah sent down. In fact, each “verse” of the Qur’an is called an ayah.

And then, if you look at one of these passages, and continue reading, you’ll see a list of the “signs” from Allah which the disbelievers can’t seem to recognize.

And exalted is Allah–I love when people try to quote ayaat to refute Islam; it only works against you.

Al-Anaam 6
37 They say: “Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?” Say: "(Allah) hath certainly power to send down a sign: but most of them understand not.

Ayas [37-41]

These people ask, “Why has no Sign been sent down to this Prophet from his Lord?” Say, "Allah is able to send down a Sign, but most of these people do not understand the wisdom underlying it**."26 **

**26’’ ****Sign" means a tangible miracle. **

**Allah says that the reason why he is not showing a Sign is not that He is unable to do so but for another reason whose wisdom they do not understand. **

The above states “tangible miracle” - NOT ayah

searchtruth.com/tafsir/tafsir.php?chapter=6

Also Amy, you said read futher down to the next verses…

Here is the remainder of the tafsir from 38 - 41

It talks about the “signs” being that allah placed beasts & birds that fly in the air and “people”. How are these miracles of the prophets time…???

And then it goes on to say that allah will guide whomever he wants and allah will mislead whomever he wants…

What kind of miracle is that…??

Allah will make you into a bad person and or allah will make you into a good person…

38-41 Tafsir
As regards Signs, just have a look at any of the beasts that move upon the earth and at any of the birds that fly in the air: they too are species like you. We have left out nothing in pre-determining the courses of their lives: then ultimately they are all gathered to their Lord. But those, who deny Our Signs, are deaf and dumb, dwellings in many sorts of darkness;27

Allah lets go astray whom He wills and guides to the Right Way whom He pleases.28

Ask them to consider deeply and answer, “When some great misfortune befalls you, or the last hour approaches you, do you invoke any other than Allah? Answer, if you be in the right.” At that time you invoke Allah alone: then, if He pleases, He averts the affliction from you, and on such occasions, you forget those whom you had set up as His partners.29

searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=6&translator=2

 

[FightingFat]

Actually the passages say why was not an ayah sent down. In fact, each “verse” of the Qur’an is called an ayah.

And then, if you look at one of these passages, and continue reading, you’ll see a list of the “signs” from Allah which the disbelievers can’t seem to recognize.

One particularly interesting point about this post is that there are literally hundreds of miracle stories about Mohammed in the Hadith, but none in the Qur’an, instead in the Qur’an, Mohammed repeatedly refused to perform miracles to confirm his prophetic credentials. Rather he offered only the Qur’an as his sign.

The absence of these events in the Qur’an, where Mohammed is constantly challenged to support his claims miraculously, is a strong argument that they (the Hadith) are not authentic.

A little study enlightens us to the fact that there was a clear task for Muslims faced with Christian apologists demonstrating the superiority of Jesus to Mohammed by way of Jesus’ miracles. In fact it was only after two Christian bishops (Abu Qurra from Edessa and Arethas from Ceasaria) had pointed this out that the Islamic miracle stories began to appear. The implication of the bishops challenge is clear: Mohammed’s teaching is one that might have merit; but this is not enough to qualify him as a prophet, without supernatural signs. In the absence of these events in the Qur’an, the Muslims simply invented miracles. Some scholars (notably Saha) remark that:

“it is quite interesting that several of these miracle stories sound as if they are being offered as responses to such Christians as Abu Qurra, and they bear an amazing resemblance to miracles of Jesus found in the Gospels”

—*Daniel J. Saha, The Formation of Later Islamic Doctrines as a Response to Byzantine Polemics: The Miracles of Mohammed, in The Greek Orthodox Theological Review, vol. 27, nos. 2 & 3 (Summer-Fall 1982, 312.

Too bad (for your argument) that the Qur’an says over and over that he’s just a man. It’s not Muslims who made a man a god.

And yet, it is Mohammed himself who teaches the fact that God confirmed the prophets before him by miracles. Interestingly, most of the prophets mentioned in the Qur’an are biblical characters. For example check out 6:84-86, after recounting the story of Abraham, God declares:

Then we gave him Isaac and Jacob: all (three) we guided: and before him we guided Noah, and among his progeny David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron: Thus do we reward those who do good: And Zakariya and John, and Jesus and Elias: All in the ranks of the Righteous: and Ismail and Elisha, and Jonas and Lot.

He refers to God confirming Moses’ prophetic credentials by miracles several times (7:106-8; 116-19). He wrote:

Then we [God] sent Moses And his brother Aaron, with Our Signs and Authority manifest

—23:45

The Qur’an also refers to God’s miraculous power being manifest through many other prophets (4:63-65). Including Jesus, who he accepts performed many miracles to prove the divine origin of his message, such as His healings and raising people from the dead. As the Qur’an says:

O Jesus the son of Mary…thou healest those Born blind, and lepers, by My leave [permission] and behold! thou Bringest forth the dead By My leave

—5:113

But if Mohammed recognised that God performed miracles through these biblical prophets, if Mohammed recognised Christ as performing miracles to demonstrate His divine commission then why could he not perform them?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Ayas [37-41]

The above states “tangible miracle” - NOT ayah

searchtruth.com/tafsir/tafsir.php?chapter=6

Also Amy, you said read futher down to the next verses…

Here is the remainder of the tafsir from 38 - 41

It talks about the “signs” being that allah placed beasts & birds that fly in the air and “people”. How are these miracles of the prophets time…???

And then it goes on to say that allah will guide whomever he wants and allah will mislead whomever he wants…

What kind of miracle is that…??

Allah will make you into a bad person and or allah will make you into a good person…

Let me teach you an Arabic word: ayah.

It means a miraculous sign. It is the word use for each “verse” (bad translation, but you get the idea) of the Qur’an. The Qur’an itself is a miracle, a proof that Muhammad is a Messenger of God. So Allah guides with the Qur’an whomever He wills–i.e., whoever wants guidance.

Some people don’t want guidance. They don’t get it. They persist in disbelief, deaf, dumb, blind to the truth. Putting their fingers in their ears, still denying it.

Ever seen people do that?

 

[Sister_Amy]

One particularly interesting point about this post is that there are literally hundreds of miracle stories about Mohammed in the Hadith, but none in the Qur’an, instead in the Qur’an, Mohammed repeatedly refused to perform miracles to confirm his prophetic credentials. Rather he offered only the Qur’an as his sign.

The absence of these events in the Qur’an, where Mohammed is constantly challenged to support his claims miraculously, is a strong argument that they (the Hadith) are not authentic.

A little study enlightens us to the fact that there was a clear task for Muslims faced with Christian apologists demonstrating the superiority of Jesus to Mohammed by way of Jesus’ miracles. In fact it was only after two Christian bishops (Abu Qurra from Edessa and Arethas from Ceasaria) had pointed this out that the Islamic miracle stories began to appear. The implication of the bishops challenge is clear: Mohammed’s teaching is one that might have merit; but this is not enough to qualify him as a prophet, without supernatural signs. In the absence of these events in the Qur’an, the Muslims simply invented miracles. Some scholars (notably Saha) remark that:

—*Daniel J. Saha, The Formation of Later Islamic Doctrines as a Response to Byzantine Polemics: The Miracles of Mohammed, in The Greek Orthodox Theological Review, vol. 27, nos. 2 & 3 (Summer-Fall 1982, 312.

And yet, it is Mohammed himself who teaches the fact that God confirmed the prophets before him by miracles. Interestingly, most of the prophets mentioned in the Qur’an are biblical characters. For example check out 6:84-86, after recounting the story of Abraham, God declares:

He refers to God confirming Moses’ prophetic credentials by miracles several times (7:106-8; 116-19). He wrote:

—23:45

The Qur’an also refers to God’s miraculous power being manifest through many other prophets (4:63-65). Including Jesus, who he accepts performed many miracles to prove the divine origin of his message, such as His healings and raising people from the dead. As the Qur’an says:

—5:113

But if Mohammed recognised that God performed miracles through these biblical prophets, if Mohammed recognised Christ as performing miracles to demonstrate His divine commission then why could he not perform them?

You’re missing the part about the Qur’an actually being the miracle. Muhammad’s miracle.

The miracles of Moses, for instance–magic–staff into a snake. Showing up the Pharaoh’s magicians. It was a “miracle” that the people were familiar with, and outdid it. Now Jesus on the other hand, his miracles were also relative to his time. Mostly related to medicine. So he outdid the physicians of the time.

The miracle of Muhammad, however, is really special because it’s not just a miracle to those who witness it, while succeeding generations only get hearsay. While the miracles of Moses and Jesus–we can hear stories, and read about them. But we weren’t there, we didn’t get to experience them.

The Qur’an, however, as a miracle, withstands time. It’s a miracle today as much as it was when it was revealed, and it surpassed in supreme eloquence and expertise any kind of poetry and expression which existed at that time. And, we can still experience that miracle, still witness it.

There are miracles in the hadith, and they are authentic hadith by the way, but the really special miracle is the Qur’an. If you’re missing that piece, you’re missing Islam.

 

[dzheremi]

Let me teach you an Arabic word: ayah.

It means a miraculous sign. It is the word use for each “verse” (bad translation, but you get the idea) of the Qur’an. The Qur’an itself is a miracle, a proof that Muhammad is a Messenger of God. So Allah guides with the Qur’an whomever He wills–i.e., whoever wants guidance.

Some people don’t want guidance. They don’t get it. They persist in disbelief, deaf, dumb, blind to the truth. Putting their fingers in their ears, still denying it.

Ever seen people do that?

It must be lonely up there on your pedestal, Sister Amy. Do throw some more crumbs of guidance and wisdom our way when you feel so moved, won’t you?

 

[FightingFat]

Let me teach you an Arabic word: ayah.

It means a miraculous sign. It is the word use for each “verse” (bad translation, but you get the idea) of the Qur’an.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayah

The Qur’an itself is a miracle, a proof that Muhammad is a Messenger of God. So Allah guides with the Qur’an whomever He wills–i.e., whoever wants guidance.

Can I ask you a question about the Qu’ran? Would it be fair to describe it as the timeless expression of the divine will? I mean it’s hold the same place in Muslim theology as the Bible does for Christians. It would be more accurate to describe it as Jesus. Is this correct?

 

[FightingFat]

You’re missing the part about the Qur’an actually being the miracle. Muhammad’s miracle.

OK, so this nicely dodges everything I’ve just said and redirects the discussion to something else! But no problem, I’ll play along!

I certainly am not missing the part about the Qur’an being the miracle! When I read the Qur’an the first thing that struck me was how much of it is a critique of the Bible. In fact, having read the Qur’an, this idea that it is a miracle and serves as its own proof for divine authority is the strangest and one of the most self serving bits of Islam as far as I can see! A completely circular argument. Just saying something is a divine miracle doesn’t make it so. The Qur’an is a book ultimately, and it seems beyond me that God would choose to give the ultimate revelation of His divine will in a book in Arabic!

There are many arguments for the miraculous nature of the Qur’an, however moist Islamic scholars put the most emphasis on the first one—the unique literary style of the Qur’an.

By revelation Mohammed claimed that:

This Qur’an is not such As can be produced by other than God

10:37

He boasts that:

if the whole of mankind and Jinn Were to gather together To produce the like Of this Qur’an, they Could not produce The like thereof, even if They backed up each other With help and support

17:88; cf. 2:118, 151, 253; 3:108; 28:87-87.

It seems to me that eloquence is a highly questionable test for divine inspiration. Lets look at someone else amazing: Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart. Know one could question his eloquence, he composed his first symphony at the age of six, and produced his entire music corpus by 35. By comparison, Mohammed was 40 when he started the Qur’an. But what Muslim would say Mozart’s works are miraculous like the Qur’an? If eloquence were the test, then a case could be made for Homer’s works, Shakespeare could be a prophet too!

Many Arabic scholars agree that the Qur’an is not, in fact, unique in its literary style. C.G. Pfander for example, points out that:

it is by no means the opinion of of unprejudiced Arabic scholars that the literary style of the Qur’an is superior to that of all other books in the Arabic language…Some doubt whether in eloquence and poetry it surpasses the Mu’allaquat, or the Magamat or Hariri, though in Muslim lands few people are courageous enough to express such an opinion.

Pfander, C.G., The Mizanu’l Haqq (Austria: Light of Life, 1986), p. 264.

One Muslim who is courageous enough is the Iranian Shi’ite scholar Ali Dashti who points out that there are numerous grammatical errors and irregularities within the Qur’an, sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligable without the aid of commentaries; foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words and words used with other that the normal meaning; adjectives and verbs inflected without observance of the concord of gender and number; illogical and ungrammatically applied pronouns which some times have no referent; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects. He lists numerous examples: 75:1; 4:160; 20:66; 2:172 and so on, one of which is verse 9 of sura 49 (ol-Hojorat) where God perportedly says:

If two parties of believers have started to fight each other, make peace between them

The verb meaning ‘have started to fight’ is in the plural, whereas it ought to be in the dual like its subject ‘two parties’. (cf. Dashti, A., Twenty Three Yeas: A Study of the Prophetic Career of Mohammed (London: George Allen Unwin, 1985), p. 48-49.
Anis A. Shorrosh is another author who catalogues many faults in the literary style of the Qur’an.

I could go on, but, the point I am trying to make is that even if it were the most eloquent book ever written in Arabic (which it’s not) it would no more prove its divine inspiration that a man’s strength would demonstrate his wisdom, or a woman’s beauty her virtue. There is no logical connection between literary eloquence and divine authority.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I’m actually taking a class right now in ‘alleged grammatical mistakes in the Qur’an.’

And this particular example is one I’m actually familiar with. In the words of my teacher, regarding this ayah and the subsequent one, “These are ayaat that expose the miracle of the Qur’an and Allah’s choice of words, that the choice of words in these ayaat and how Allah constructed the sentences is so perfect and so incredible that you’re left with no choice but to say this can only be the word of Allah.”

Before the fighting begins, there are two groups of Muslims on opposite sides of a battlefield, and you can tell which is which. And we see the dual form for “two groups.” But their flags are both of Islam, and when the fighting stops they pray the same way, they make the same call. But once they’re fighting, you see one big group of individuals (Muslims) fighting each other. You can’t distinguish them from one another. And so the word for their fighting is plural, not dual.

But when you try to reconcile between the two groups, you have to separate them, and you can see the agenda of each, and distinguish between them. But in the ayah, Allah tells the person trying to reconcile between them that they’re both Muslim (i.e., from the believers) and consequently both groups should get the benefit of the doubt in reaching peace. (The ayah is about conflict resolution, remember?)

But if one group leaves the resolution still not satisfied, and stilling wants to fight after reaching a peace, then you get a new situation. This is rebellion against the peace that was made. Then everyone–the neutral party and then the party which didn’t violate the agreement, they become one party against the party that did violate it. So now everything is between the group that violated the treaty, and all the rest of the Muslims.

You can hear his (i.e., my teacher’s explanation) of this ayah and the next one on youtube: youtube.com/watch?v=CvYNWNc4ghU

So instead of being a grammatical mistake, it’s actually a proof that the Qur’an is from Allah.

 

[Sister_Amy]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayah

Can I ask you a question about the Qu’ran? Would it be fair to describe it as the timeless expression of the divine will? I mean it’s hold the same place in Muslim theology as the Bible does for Christians. It would be more accurate to describe it as Jesus. Is this correct?

No.

 

[FightingFat]

So instead of being a grammatical mistake, it’s actually a proof that the Qur’an is from Allah.

That is indeed fortunate. I should imagine there are similar reasons that in 2:177 Sabireen is not Sabiroon, or why Sabioon is used instead of Sabieen in 5:69. There is also a “gross error in Arabic” in 3:59 according to Dr. Anis Shorrosh (Islam Revealed, Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1988). Dashti (q.v.) sums up that there are over one hundred Qur’anic abberations from the normal rules and structure of Arabic. It would seem clear to me that although the Arabic of the Qur’an may be occasionally eloquent, it is not perfect, nor unparalleled.

This opinion was also held in early Islamic schools, for example Ibrahim on-Nassam, who openly acknowledged that the arrangement and syntax of the Qur’an are not miraculous and that works of equal or greater value could be produced by other God-fearing persons. Several leading exponents of the Motazelite school shared this opinion.

There is also the question of the Satanic verses- a concession Mohammed made to polytheism in order to win support from his Meccan antagonists but later recounted and attributed to Satanic interpolation.

 

[Sam_777]

There is also a “gross error in Arabic” in 3:59 according to Dr. Anis Shorrosh (Islam Revealed, Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1988). Dashti (q.v.) sums up that there are over one hundred Qur’anic abberations from the normal rules and structure of Arabic.

Also do not forget the non-Arabic words in Quran.

 

[Sister_Amy]

That is indeed fortunate. I should imagine there are similar reasons that in 2:177 Sabireen is not Sabiroon, or why Sabioon is used instead of Sabieen in 5:69. There is also a “gross error in Arabic” in 3:59 according to Dr. Anis Shorrosh (Islam Revealed, Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1988). Dashti (q.v.) sums up that there are over one hundred Qur’anic abberations from the normal rules and structure of Arabic. It would seem clear to me that although the Arabic of the Qur’an may be occasionally eloquent, it is not perfect, nor unparalleled.

We did that first one the first day, and the second one today in class. More likely that your sources aren’t really the experts on Arabic they claim to be, if they can’t figure out why the Qur’an is grammatically sound.

 

[FightingFat]

We did that first one the first day, and the second one today in class. More likely that your sources aren’t really the experts on Arabic they claim to be, if they can’t figure out why the Qur’an is grammatically sound.

I’ve quoted my sources and they are indisputably reputable and scholarly! If you choose to ignore good sense there’s nothing I can do about it, but think on people like Joseph Smith. He too came up with a book he claimed was a revelation from God, how do we discern against what he has to say? We have to listen to reason, one thing Islam is not very good at!

What’s your opinion on the Satanic verses Amy?

 

[Miriam1947]

Too bad (for your argument) that the Qur’an says over and over that he’s just a man. It’s not Muslims who made a man a god.

We Catholics certainly didn’t make a man a god.

God made himself a man. We call him Jesus.

 

[Arch_Angel]

We Catholics certainly didn’t make a man a god.

God made himself a man. We call him Jesus.

** Amen to that Miriam!**

We did not “make” God into a man, we simply “let” God reveal himself to us…

Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.