Objective Morality > God Exists

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I’ve heard many apologists argue that if we believe objective morality exists (as for myself, I am convinced of this) - then therefore God must exist.

Now, if we accept the premise, why is this so?

Is it that there are no other reasonable alternative explanations for the existence of this morality? So, for example, if we find incoherent the arguments for morality based upon human/social contract/rationalist or evolutionary/herd instinct - that only the existence of God can explain morality? It this necessarily so? 😊 Why?

🤷
 
Hi Mic,

Morality is derived from the purpose of things. That which agrees with the purpose of a thing is moral. But there can be no purpose without a mind. That mind can only be God since He is the only one outside the world.

However, I prefer deriving morality from the existence of God.

Verbum
 
Hi Mic,

Morality is derived from the purpose of things. That which agrees with the purpose of a thing is moral. But there can be no purpose without a mind. That mind can only be God since He is the only one outside the world.

However, I prefer deriving morality from the existence of God.

Verbum
Thanks Verbum! Suppose, instead, I simply say to an atheist that whether s/he knows it or not, at least implicitly they act and think and speak as if objective moral values actually exist. There is no need to derive them; we simply cannot escape them, as they are an intrinsic aspect of reality. How would I introduce “purpose” in this case in order to connect them to God? Thanks! 🙂
 
Hi Mic,

The person must first of all admit that morality is derived from purpose. Then it must be admitted that purpose derives from a mind.

Verbum
 
Thanks Verbum! Suppose, instead, I simply say to an atheist that whether s/he knows it or not, at least implicitly they act and think and speak as if objective moral values actually exist. There is no need to derive them; we simply cannot escape them, as they are an intrinsic aspect of reality. How would I introduce “purpose” in this case in order to connect them to God? Thanks! 🙂
We behave as if there is morality, but I see no evidence that our behavior follows an objective morality intrinsic to reality. In fact, the evidence seems to indicate exactly the opposite, morality has slowly developed over time, as we learn more and more about what makes a good society. I don’t see any evidence that moral behavior is the result of anything other then subjectivity or practical necessity.
 
We behave as if there is morality, but I see no evidence that our behavior follows an objective morality intrinsic to reality. In fact, the evidence seems to indicate exactly the opposite, morality has slowly developed over time, as we learn more and more about what makes a good society. I don’t see any evidence that moral behavior is the result of anything other then subjectivity or practical necessity.
Fascinating, Mers. What specific evidence do you see that moral behavior is merely the result of subjective or practical necessity?

🤷
 
I’ve heard many apologists argue that if we believe objective morality exists (as for myself, I am convinced of this) - then therefore God must exist.

Now, if we accept the premise, why is this so?
Well, it’s not a one-to-one, because it doesn’t determine the existence of the Christian God, and it could be satisfied by the existence of *any *morally valuable being (whether or not this being is omnipotent, etc.). But the belief in objective morality entails the belief in a real entity to which these morals pertain. Plato believed, for example, that everything was modeled on the form of the Good, which is one of many forms that exist in another world.

In essence, objective morality would prove that there is more than physical reality – that a “spiritual” dimension exists. This is often an obstacle that can be cleared out before a person believes in God, but God’s existence is not entailed by the argument (so far as I can tell).
 
…morality has slowly developed over time, as we learn more and more about what makes a good society.
Um…how can we understand what a “good” society is without objective morality? Isn’t this circular?
 
Sorry for being so careless.

:o

I’ll rephrase the question. What evidence do you see that morality developed over time?
I’m baffled that you can even deny that this is the case. You deny then that modern morality is better then ancient moralities? You would prefer the random genocide, slavery, rape, and constant war that existed in ancient times? Or can you agree that we have a better sense of right and wrong as time goes on? That freeing the slaves was a good idea and such?

If morality were just this thing floating out there, separate from practical reality or subjectivity, that we knew and could either choose to adhere to or not, then we would expect morals to be more or less the same throughout history and culture. But this is clearly not the case. Morals are different everywhere you go and change every decade.

But this is besides the point. The claim being made was that god must exist, because objective morality definitely does exist. So, okay, prove it.
 
I’m baffled that you can even deny that this is the case. You deny then that modern morality is better then ancient moralities? You would prefer the random genocide, slavery, rape, and constant war that existed in ancient times? Or can you agree that we have a better sense of right and wrong as time goes on? That freeing the slaves was a good idea and such?

If morality were just this thing floating out there, separate from practical reality or subjectivity, that we knew and could either choose to adhere to or not, then we would expect morals to be more or less the same throughout history and culture. But this is clearly not the case. Morals are different everywhere you go and change every decade.

But this is besides the point. The claim being made was that god must exist, because objective morality definitely does exist. So, okay, prove it.
No denials, just wonder. You’ve got a good point, there. I mean, consider slavery. In the ancient Roman empire, as much as 50 percent of all people were slaves. Regarding the treatment of women, they had little or no rights in the ancient world. So, what do you have any opinions on what changed all that?
 
No denials, just wonder. You’ve got a good point, there. I mean, consider slavery. In the ancient Roman empire, as much as 50 percent of all people were slaves. Regarding the treatment of women, they had little or no rights in the ancient world. So, what do you have any opinions on what changed all that?
time and experience, same thing that progressed everything in our society.
 
Yes, but someone is responsible for every idea.

So, who in time proposed the idea to abolish slavery?

Who in time proposed equal treatment of women?

Who is the agent of such change in morality?

🤷
 
Yes, but someone is responsible for every idea.
Absurd. Ideas can build up slowly over time, without any single person being responsible for the whole. In fact most ideas are like this. I can’t imagine anyone even attempting to claim that a single person invented women’s rights. They’ve built up slowly over the centuries in numerous different areas, Mohamed expanded a lot of women’s rights back in the 7th century, for example. They are defined differently around the world, and debate still continues on these issues today.

You know what’s not helpful to the debate? Religion. I’ll admit that religion was an early primitive attempt at morality, but religion is to morality what Alchemy is to Chemistry. It was an early attempt to understand reality through mysticism and revelation, it gets a few things right with time and with guess and check, but it carries with it a lot of unnecessary baggage, and in the long haul it’s just not a sustainable way to navigate reality. Only when you throw off the shackles of mysticism, realize that reality is found through observation and discourse, not by just declaring randomly what you think reality is or should be, or clutching to what your parents told you must be true, can real progress start. Until then, all you’re left is a so called public debate that amounts to “this is moral” “no it’s not” “yes it is” until you’re blue in the face.
 
… You know what’s not helpful to the debate? Religion. I’ll admit that religion was an early primitive attempt at morality, but religion is to morality what Alchemy is to Chemistry. It was an early attempt to understand reality through mysticism and revelation, it gets a few things right with time and with guess and check, but it carries with it a lot of unnecessary baggage, and in the long haul it’s just not a sustainable way to navigate reality. Only when you throw off the shackles of mysticism, realize that reality is found through observation and discourse, not by just declaring randomly what you think reality is or should be, or clutching to what your parents told you must be true, can real progress start. Until then, all you’re left is a so called public debate that amounts to “this is moral” “no it’s not” “yes it is” until you’re blue in the face.
Agreed. Reality is indeed found through observation and discourse. I’d also add reason, as i’m sure you would. These are the three methods my mentor Socrates practiced.

👍

There was also a fourth he claimed to reveal the real to him–revelation. I’m extremely interested in knowing why you believe revelation from some supernatural source is impossible.
 
I’m baffled that you can even deny that this is the case. You deny then that modern morality is better then ancient moralities? You would prefer the random genocide, slavery, rape, and constant war that existed in ancient times? Or can you agree that we have a better sense of right and wrong as time goes on? That freeing the slaves was a good idea and such?

If morality were just this thing floating out there, separate from practical reality or subjectivity, that we knew and could either choose to adhere to or not, then we would expect morals to be more or less the same throughout history and culture. But this is clearly not the case. Morals are different everywhere you go and change every decade.

But this is besides the point. The claim being made was that god must exist, because objective morality definitely does exist. So, okay, prove it.
I utterly deny it’s the case that morality evolves. Are you really going to stand behind the proposition that slavery is only wrong NOW because we say it is, but since back THEN, a lot of people said it wasn’t wrong, that made it okay? I say, no, we abolished slavery because it was wrong THEN, not because it would be wrong after it was abolished. If morality was different then, and slavery was “good,” why change it? The reality is, morality has been the same yesterday, today and forever, and people have always found ways of rationalizing their failure to live up to it. We did away with slavery in America because enough people realized the reality that it was already immoral.

You seem to subscribe to the view that morality is what society actually supports and does at any given time. But that completely forecloses the possibility that an entire society, or at least a substantial majority, could be immoral. I say that if a solitary human can make an immoral choice, then more people can make that same choice, and the nature of the choice does not change. I say humans are free to choose to be immoral, and such is the case with slavery and the genocide to which you are referring. If it were not so, we would never accuse anyone of being immoral today, as his morals are simply “evolving”. I call horse-hockey on that whole notion. Acceptance of something by the majority in a given society or people does not mean it is moral. It may mean that those accepting the behavior are themselves immoral or do not care about morality (which is basically the same thing). Sorry if this baffles.
 
Agreed. Reality is indeed found through observation and discourse. I’d also add reason, as i’m sure you would. These are the three methods my mentor Socrates practiced.

👍

There was also a fourth he claimed to reveal the real to him–revelation. I’m extremely interested in knowing why you believe revelation from some supernatural source is impossible.
The supernatural is that which is outside the universe. The universe is by definition all of that which exists. Therefore the supernatural does not exist.

It will often then be disputed that those definitions are appropriate, but without defining those terms like that, I fail to see how one could hope to claim that divine revalation is outside of the banner of science. And if it isn’t, then we are either left with a phenomenon that is better explained by delusion then a god, or something that simply needs to be studied by science.
 
The supernatural is that which is outside the universe. The universe is by definition all of that which exists. Therefore the supernatural does not exist.

It will often then be disputed that those definitions are appropriate, but without defining those terms like that, I fail to see how one could hope to claim that divine revalation is outside of the banner of science. And if it isn’t, then we are either left with a phenomenon that is better explained by delusion then a god, or something that simply needs to be studied by science.
Funny you should make an ontological argument for the non-existence of God. Most discount any ontological arguments for Him, so I’m surprised you’d go there. Also funny that you dismiss out of hand concepts like the multi-verse theory. Science is ever-changing, you know. We’re always learning. I would be careful about your ontology, if you want to be taken seriously about science.

In any event, I always thought of the universe as a sort of expanding balloon with limits (I understand that the finite vs. infinite nature of the universe is in dispute, but I believe it is the former, as the concept of expanding seems to require limits in the first place). I’d imagine that, as one on the inside of the “balloon,” it would be fairly easy to study the phenomena going on inside the balloon, but to try to make claims about what may or may not exist outside of the finite limits of the balloon would require being able to see beyond its limits. A lot easier said than done, so you’d either have to have some way of seeing outside it, or rely on the words of someone who has crossed over to the other side, or comes from there. But it takes some kind of hubris that to claim that it would be a mere delusion to say that something exists outside of it. I subscribe to the view that, if the laws of physics inside the balloon dictate that an act requires a cause, then at some point there had to be a cause acting outside those laws of physics and the causal requirement, which set those things in motion. Doesn’t have to be a personal, salvific God, necessarily, but the God necessarily has to have some traits by nature of existing outside said laws.

But really, if you want to come in here shouting Richard Dawkins’ amateurish arguments about delusion vs. revelation, I would think again. Dawkins is a brilliant evolutionary biologist, but should have quit after the blind watchmaker. He’s a terribly misinformed philosopher and quite an embarrassment to many atheist intellectualists, due to his atrocity of a God Delusion book. The fact that it was such a pop-culture hit should have been your first clue. We are a society that treasures books written by Joel Olsteen, for crying out loud. If you want to be taken seriously as an agnostic or atheist, you should really study some serious and credible sources, not pop culture booksellers.
 
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