Obligations

[rhiannonh]

Exactly. Any person who has been married for any length of time will tell you that there are days - or weeks or even longer - where one does not ‘feel’ love, or even like, for one’s spouse.

The ones with successful marriages will probably tell you that the shortest road to disaster is to give up doing the things you normally do with your spouse, the things that express your love, at those times when you’re not ‘feeling it’. Instead, some would advocate the Dr Phil approach of ‘fake it till you make it’. Feelings influence behaviour, but the reverse is often also true.

Think of the man saying to Christ ‘Lord, I believe, help my unbelief!’ At one and the same time he acknowledged that he was ‘less than’ in his spiritual life, and also that he was determined to persevere along his path, trusting that Christ would supply where his human weakness was lacking.

No one has ever suggested to give anything up.

All I am trying to do is find a better supporting set of words for our brothers and sisters who are struggling when they post. Obligations and duty to me are not comforting and actually not that valid an argument of why we should do/be something in church. The church and life isn’t comforting and there are some harsh realities I know that. But when we are trying to be a friend to a fellow Christian then surely we can come up with a better phrase than - ‘its your obligation/duty’ to… Article x100 says… They have a place when it comes administration of the church but not really relevant in explaining why we do something. You do it in that we because we believe it helps our faith with God and our relationship with God to grow

 

[rhiannonh]

Not if the authority is that given by God and the obligation is to that authority. In effect, it is an obligation to God, is it not?

Fine if the authority is given by God

and not used in abuse towards each other… Sorry if that is strong

 

[CB_Catholic]

We Catholics see our worship of God on Sunday ( or Saturday Eve) as a Commandment coming directly from God, the one that says to keep the Sabbath holy.

I am not going to discuss The Sabbath here, but I just wanted to point out the fact that it is not man imposing the obligation, it is God Himself, and He has every right to do that. There are nine other Commandments given, and they are obligations given by God also, but for some reason, people don’t seem to think they are as burdensome as the one that requires us to faithfully drag our butts out of bed on Sunday morning (or interrupt our football-game watching or shopping trip) and go worship God. It is so mundane,and after all the other Commandments deal mostly with how we treat our brothers and sisters, not how we treat God. Somehow that seems more important to people.

I don’t think so. God clearly says that He is to be first in our lives, even above our own families, friends, parents, children, whatever. This is not an option, it is an obligation. And the observance of the obligation to worship God on the Lord’s Day faithfully will keep us from breaking the other nine Commandments.

Now if you believed, as the Catholic Church does, that God Himself demands our faithful public worship on His Day, would you still argue with that obligation? The truth is, people can be lazy and make up all kinds of excuses not to go to church, or they become distracted by other things. That is the real, true reason behind most of it. And people are experts at lying to themselves about this. I am talking about believers here.

But personally, every time I see a Crucifix, I am reminded that Jesus Christ did not have to suffer such horrible torture and death on the Cross for me, so that I could be with Him in eternity. He could have said No. He is , after all, God. When I think of that, why would I see an obligation to attend Mass and worship Him as burdensome?

 

[rhiannonh]

But I worship God because I love him

Does anyone else here love God enough to worship him because they love him?

 

[Incomplete]

But I worship God because I love him

Does anyone else here love God enough to worship him because they love him?

Of course we do.

But obligation is important. There was a time in my life when I worshipped reluctantly. I’d go to Mass out of “obligation.” Without that, I would have gone less and less…and maybe quit altogether.

On days when I really didn’t feel like going, I would tell myself that this is how I show God I love Him, by going to Mass when I had no desire to. But in reality, without the sense of obligation, there are many, many times I would not have gone.

After many years, I changed. It would not have happened without that obligation, though. It was through Mass that I changed, not private prayer, not anything else, just the Mass that I had at one time attended out of obligation.

Regardless of my feelings, though, even had I never grown to enjoy Mass, I should still be there, worshiping God, hearing God’s word, receiving Him in the Eucharist…doing what God asks, regardless of personal feelings.

 

[rhiannonh]

I am coming out of a similar phrase now but not because I reluctantly worshipped him. Just where I have been at in myself and God has felt very far away. But not once did I think of keeping going as obligation or duty. It was comforting and familiar and for me the only way I felt near through the time.

 

[Incomplete]

I am coming out of a similar phrase now but not because I reluctantly worshipped him. Just where I have been at in myself and God has felt very far away. But not once did I think of keeping going as obligation or duty. It was comforting and familiar and for me the only way I felt near through the time.

That is your experience, but not everybody’s experience. Many don’t find worship comforting and familiar, or the only way they feel near to God at the time.

God deserves worship, and it is right to worship not based on feelings, but because God deserves it. It is certainly great if you worship out of love of God, but it is just as good to worship when you have no desire to. There is something to be said to be going because it is the right thing to do, no matter what your feelings are.

 

[Luvtosew]

I am coming out of a similar phrase now but not because I reluctantly worshipped him. Just where I have been at in myself and God has felt very far away. But not once did I think of keeping going as obligation or duty. It was comforting and familiar and for me the only way I felt near through the time.

I can’t agree with our more rhiannonh about wanting to atend Mass and not our of authority or obligation or commiting a mortal sin, which as you know if you miss Mass,its a mortal sin and most go to confession, and don’t know how many times I hear (not from the posters here) than got to go to Mass or I’ll need to go to confession. Its not an obligation its a must, as well the commandment says to keep hold the Lords day, not go to church to keep it holy. One must not be pressured into going and repremanded if they don’t.

 

[TheDoctor]

Fine if the authority is given by God

and not used in abuse towards each other… Sorry if that is strong

No apologies necessary. No offense taken.

I think we agree that the authority was given by God to the Church. I am confused, however that you appear to see the Church using that God given authority to teach in Faith and Morals (e.g. by telling us that God wants us to worship Him at Mass on Sunday and that it is a mortal sin if we do not) as somehow abusive.

 

[rhiannonh]

[QUO[COLOR=“Blue”]TE=Incomplete;8924267]That is your experience, but not everybody’s experience. Many don’t find worship comforting and familiar, or the only way they feel near to God at the time. God deserves worship, and it is right to worship not based on feelings, but because God deserves it. It is certainly great if you worship out of love of God, but it is just as good to worship when you have no desire to. There is something to be said to be going because it is the right thing to do, no matter what your feelings are.

I am not suprised many don’t find worship comfortng and familiar if the teaching about it is that one has to because of obligaition.
God deserves worship but he wants us to give it to him freerly. Not out of duty. He could have made us robotic and we all worship him via obligation and duty. Our worship our love is freerly given.

 

[rhiannonh]

I can’t agree with our more rhiannonh about wanting to atend Mass and not our of authority or obligation or commiting a mortal sin, which as you know if you miss Mass,its a mortal sin and most go to confession, and don’t know how many times I hear (not from the posters here) than got to go to Mass or I’ll need to go to confession. Its not an obligation its a must, as well the commandment says to keep hold the Lords day, not go to church to keep it holy. One must not be pressured into going and repremanded if they don’t.

Actually I don’t know because I am Anglican and don’t hold that view point about Mortal and Venial Sins. I also don’t do confession like you guys do because we are Anglican and Church of England. But I do choose to do a confession but would never confess to missing a mass because I don’t see it a sin like you guys.

You do whatever it is you do because you believe what is right. We are all very good at doing what we think is right rather than what is right.?

 

[Incomplete]

[QUO[COLOR=“Blue”]TE=Incomplete;8924267]That is your experience, but not everybody’s experience. Many don’t find worship comforting and familiar, or the only way they feel near to God at the time.

God deserves worship, and it is right to worship not based on feelings, but because God deserves it. It is certainly great if you worship out of love of God, but it is just as good to worship when you have no desire to. There is something to be said to be going because it is the right thing to do, no matter what your feelings are.

I am not suprised many don’t find worship comfortng and familiar if the teaching about it is that one has to because of obligaition.
God deserves worship but he wants us to give it to him freerly. Not out of duty. He could have made us robotic and we all worship him via obligation and duty. Our worship our love is freerly given.

God did not tell us to keep holy the sabbath only if we feel like it.

He did not say to worship Him only if one feels like it.

Obedience to Him is a great thing, and that includes obedience when He asks us to worship. We don’t follow His other commands just because we feel like it.

As I’ve said, I agree that it’s wonderful to worship because you want to. But it is also wonderful to worship out of obedience. That is another kind of love.

I see much danger in saying, “Just worship when it’s a comfort and joy to you.” I see people skip church once in a while, (I’m not talking just about Catholics), then a little more frequently, and after awhile not going at all.

He wants us to give our love and worship freely. That’s true. You can’t really love if it’s not free. But you can show a lot of love by going to worship when you don’t want to.

God deserves to be worshiped, no matter how an individual feels.

 

[rhiannonh]

No apologies necessary. No offense taken.

I think we agree that the authority was given by God to the Church. I am confused, however that you appear to see the Church using that God given authority to teach in Faith and Morals (e.g. by telling us that God wants us to worship Him at Mass on Sunday and that it is a mortal sin if we do not) as somehow abusive.

“A new Commandment I give unto you is to love one another, As I have loved you” Jesus Christ, for those who don’t know.

The church ie specifically the Roman Catholic Church in this discussion (though all churches have their faults) has a long list of expectations of its people and if you fail you ‘gotta go’ to confession before the next mass etc and you feel very bad if you don’t because that is what you have been taught.

You to to Holy Communion or Mass if you like because you Love God, not because article number whatever tells you, that you must regardless of obligations. Loving God is about feeling.

 

[Luvtosew]

A thought occured to me, “what if the church said its no longer a mortal sin not to go to Mass” what would that change, since so many Catholics don’t go to Mass now anyway.

the same Catholoics who go to Mass would continue to do so, and even some that may not go to Mass might start since its now up to them.

that is if like some of you think , that many people just don’t like authority and thats why they don’t follow the CC teachings.

I also don’t believe missing Mass is a mortal sin, as such one should go because they want to worship our Creator and Saviour.

 

[rhiannonh]

I for one would continue to go anyway but there again I do go anyway

Yes, I do wonder just how many Roman Catholics would continue to go if they thought they didn’t have to go? Good question that Lovstosew.

I carefully post Roman Catholic all the time because people say Catholic, I am Catholic but not Roman Catholic. Words are being confused here because as we are discovering we have different ideas

 

[TheDoctor]

“A new Commandment I give unto you is to love one another, As I have loved you” Jesus Christ, for those who don’t know.

Hopefully there is no Christian who does not know the new commandment.

The church ie specifically the Roman Catholic Church in this discussion (though all churches have their faults) has a long list of expectations of its people and if you fail you ‘gotta go’ to confession before the next mass etc and you feel very bad if you don’t because that is what you have been taught.

See, this is where you miss the question of authority. If I said “God has a long list of expectations of His people…” then you would probably have no argument that by not doing what God has directed you to do you open yourself up to the consequences of that disobedience, would you?

When the Church (specifically the Catholic Church) imposes an expectation on the faithful it is with the full authority and consent of God that she imposes the expectation, as if God Himself as said it.

Specifically, as to your problem with missing Mass: It is God through the scripture who imposes on us the expectation to keep holy the sabbath. It is God through His Church who imposes the expectation that the primary way we keep Holy the sabbath is to attend Mass. It is God through scripture who tells us there is mortal and venial sin. It is God through His Church who informs us that missing Mass without a valid reason is a violation of the Commandment and grave matter which may be mortal sin. It is God who through scripture who tells us that only He can forgive sins. It is God through His Church who tells us that the power to bind and loose sins in His name is given to His priests through the sacrament of confession.

When I commit a mortal sin, I don’t go to confession because I feel bad because I have been taught to feel bad. You can’t be taught a feeling - they are spontaneous inner reactions. I go to confession because I have been taught that I have offended almighty God, who died on the cross for my salvation and the way to be right with Him is through the Sacrament He gave us.

You to to Holy Communion or Mass if you like because you Love God, not because article number whatever tells you, that you must regardless of obligations. Loving God is about feeling.

To love is a feeling, and to love God is what we are called to do. But a feeling is not an action. Your action toward God is what you do because of that feeling of love. If I truly love God I want to be a part of the Church He founded and if I want to be a part of the Church He founded I need to follow the teachings of His Church as part of showing Him how much I love Him. Actions not only speak louder than words, they shout over feelings as well.

 

[rhiannonh]

Your feeling hasn’t taught you its a mortal sin?

 

[TheDoctor]

A thought occured to me, “what if the church said its no longer a mortal sin not to go to Mass” what would that change, since so many Catholics don’t go to Mass now anyway.

The Church cannot teach in error on Faith or Morals (infallibility) so the question is moot. It will always be a grave sin not to keep holy the sabbath.

…that is if like some of you think , that many people just don’t like authority and thats why they don’t follow the CC teachings.

People do not follow Church teachings either because they do not fully understand them (e.g. abortion) or they “don’t agree” with them because they don’t want to give up they enjoy (e.g. per-marital fornication) or they will have to challenge their comfort level (e.g. the faith walk they have chosen) and they are not ready to do either.

I also don’t believe missing Mass is a mortal sin, as such one should go because they want to worship our Creator and Saviour.

With all due respect, it is not about why you believe or don’t believe, is it? In the end, isn’t it about what God wants us to do? If not, why did he leave us a Church with the full authority to carry out His will on Earth?

 

[TheDoctor]

Yes, I do wonder just how many Roman Catholics would continue to go if they thought they didn’t have to go? Good question that Lovstosew.

Speaking for myself and those Catholics I know, we don’t go to Mass because it is a rule.
- We go to Mass to fulfill God’s commandment to keep holy the sabbath.
- We go to be watch the miracle of bread and wine be transubstantiated into His body and blood.
- We go to be feed with His body and blood.
- We go to Worship Him with our fellow brothers and sisters - the body of Christ.
- We go to be educated and challenged about our faith walk and the choices we make.
- We go to pray for our brothers and sisters and have them pray for us.

 

[TheDoctor]

Your feeling hasn’t taught you its a mortal sin?

Feelings are spontaneous inner reactions to people and events. The way we act because of those feelings is where our conscience comes into play. I have been taught what a mortal sin is and it is my conscience and intelligence that tells me when I have committed one. Now, depending on the sin and the circumstances I may feel varying degrees of guilt or shame or rage or despair or hurt or none of the above but it is not the feeling that drives me to confession - it is knowing that I offended God and the wanting to get right with Him.