Observation about SSA

[90Domer]

Have you ever seen a SSA person post in favor of the Catholic teachings as a means of supporting his fellow Christians that suffer with this inclination? Lately, I have seen so much of the opposite that I wonder if there are devout SSA people who fully agree and encourage others to follow the teachings of the Church.

God bless on this Divine Mercy Sunday!

 

[Seeker1961]

I promised myself during Holy Week that I wouldn’t get into these threads again…but I think for this topic I can make an exception.

I am a gay Christian. Raised in a Christian home, by loving Christian parents who were married over 50 years. Went to excellent Catholic schools, never used drugs and used no more alcohol than the average college student. Never watched porn, and was never abused by anyone. ALWAYS knew that something was different-but didn’t know there was a word for it until my peers in school taught me. When all the other kids were starting to act on their attractions to the opposite sex, I knew that my attractions were not the same.

I lived “the life” for quite a while-through college, grad school, law school-up until about 15 years ago. I took a long hard look at my life and realized that I wasn’t truly happy, and I missed the relationship with God I had as a kid. I was in a relationship at the time, we’d been together 10 years. We both felt the same pull, as we’d had similar childhoods. In the end, we both chose to end the relationship and return to the Church. It wasn’t easy, but nothing worthwhile is. We dealt with issues from some friends, but truly not many of them. I still have most of those friends, and while they don’t really understand my choice, they respect it. I’ve been without a relationship for almost 15 years now, and I’m happier than I have ever been.

I DO try and share my experience with friends, but frankly, I’m fighting an uphill battle. Too many of the folks I talk to have been damaged by so-called “Christians” who have preached a message of condemnation. They might be my friends and agree that I can be a Christian and like them-but they won’t set foot in a Church or get involved with “straight” Christians.

It’s why I came here, actually. I wanted to help other Christians dialogue with gay people and lead them to Christ-help them to understand the language and the needs of gay people.

I decided right around Holy Week that I had had enough banging my head against the wall here, and that I was falling into a trap of pride and a desire to be “right”. So I started focusing outward on the friends I have in real life, and on my own walk with Christ.

I believe the ONLY way to change our culture is to convince more people that Jesus loves them and wants the best of life for them. I believe my job is to lead them to Jesus, and then let Jesus do the work on their hearts the way He did on mine and my ex. We weren’t convinced to change because someone told us our lives were an “abomination”, we were convinced to change because people showed us a different life with Jesus.

The problems we talk about here daily have a solution. It’s changing people’s relationship with God. It’s not passing laws, or electing politicians. It’s doing the hard work of getting close to people and helping them to see the love of Christ in us and showing them that they can have that too. I know from my own experience that once you connect with that love, you WANT to change. You WANT to do what God says.

So, yes…there are gay people here who want other gay people to live in Christ. I’m only one of them.

 

[InAllThingsLove]

Seeker1961, your story is incredible. Thank you for sharing it.

 

[Scottgun]

Yes! There is one who goes by “Joe K.” who frequents Dr. Ed Feser’s blog. He is same-sex attracted and determined to follow Church teaching, and he is quite well-spoken:

You’d think most pressure comes from the gay community, and a certain amount of it kind of does, but it’s actually mostly from the straight community. They gay community always reacts kind of “hurt” (like Leah points out here) when you discuss sexual ethics or say I refuse to live that way, etc. It’s like your not doing what they’re doing is the strongest judgment of them that exists. And in a Certain way it is, but it’s not; I don’t talk with gay people that much, and I pretty much stay out of the debates not on the internet. What I find a little interesting is that there’s this certain level on insecurity and guilt about it. I think, in some ways, homosexuals recognize that it’s Not impossible to not live the life they’re living. I think that’s usually the way their lives are justified to themselves: “I can’t Live, it’s Impossible, without this outlet; I Cannot Be Wrong if the alternative is death.”

The worst, by far, are heterosexuals, who are all about gay rights, though. This may be because they are the majority, but in a certain way I think it’s deeper than that. I think their defending of homosexuals is driven by a couple things. One, it comes from this weird perverted notion that you always have to protect the weak and “not judge” No Matter What. It’s derived, I think, from Christian notions of love, but it has to turned into this terrible monster known as modern liberalism. It’s actually become the case that defending the weak is more important than identifying the truth. This whole idea is rampant, and it’s pretty much suffocating to any real discussion on moral issues. “Don’t judge! What makes your life any better! You’re just filled with hate!” etc. etc. etc. Everyone has to be equal, no matter the stakes, no matter what. If you imply Anything to the contrary, you’re basically Hitler who wants to kill all gay people. And while this push is definitely from the gay community (it’s how they gain their power), it’s most strong (and most despicable) from straight people. It’s despicable because they don’t know what they’re doing. They just bandwagon on someone else’s slave morality to the degradation of everything around them. And worst of all, they’re Zealous about it. They get mad, scary mad about it.

The second reason heterosexuals provide so much pressure against moral living is similar to the reason gay people do. A person who espouses Any sexual ethics (literally at all), is assaulting their own lifestyle. Because, let’s face it, heterosexuals are just as bad, or worse, about sexual purity than homosexuals. I basically know no people who don’t cohabitate. I basically know no people who haven’t sought relationships Just For The Sex. A friend of mine was asking which girl he should date. He explained their strengths and weaknesses to me. I told him to date the one he thinks he could marry. He laughed, looked at me like I was crazy, and then the conversation got awkward. That’s really the only sentence I said to him; I didn’t push anything, I wasn’t being preachy about it; I honestly thought that was the best, most rational advice. But it wasn’t even on his radar. And he’s a pretty decent person too. No, any talk about sexual ethics is an assault on almost All people. And that’s not cool. It’s way too hard to live your life moral with respect to sex. It’s also way too philosophical. With other things you can see external results more quickly and more clearly. Stealing has clear effects, as does lying. But having sex with your girlfriend? What’s wrong with that.

 

[markomalley]

I promised myself during Holy Week that I wouldn’t get into these threads again…but I think for this topic I can make an exception.

I am a gay Christian.

Congratulations.

I am certain that you have a very difficult cross to bear. But I am always gratified to hear when a man or woman with SSA chooses to take up that cross.

One question, though. When you say,
*I believe the ONLY way to change our culture is to convince more people that Jesus loves them and wants the best of life for them. I believe my job is to lead them to Jesus, and then let Jesus do the work on their hearts the way He did on mine and my ex. We weren’t convinced to change because someone told us our lives were an “abomination”, we were convinced to change because people showed us a different life with Jesus.
*Are you saying that people should just ignore that issue? Or are you saying that the truth should be presented but in a more sensitive (I guess that’s the word) way?

The reason I ask this is because people of our era were raised in one fashion, but with how the culture these days has declined, it’s entirely possible that teens and twenty-somethings may honestly have never had their consciences initially formed. Fewer kids are churched in any way at all (trust me, I see that from teaching CCD…and those kids are the “churched” ones), many “Christian” traditions are becoming more and more compromised on the subject, and Lord help the person who dares speak anything about homosexuality other than in the most glowing terms within a public (and even a lot of Catholic) school setting, therapeutic setting, or the workplace (particularly if one works for the government or for a Fortune 500 company).

While I can appreciate that bounding a King James Version Bible over a person’s head and telling them that they are going to hell and nothing they can do will stop them from that eventual destination is not the way to win converts, is speaking the words from the catechism…both the parts about homosexual conduct and about “orientation”… too strong as well?

I ask for real world purposes…not for purposes of an online forum, where I will continue to be a complete hardnosed jerk.

 

[CopticChristian]

Have you ever seen a SSA person post in favor of the Catholic teachings as a means of supporting his fellow Christians that suffer with this inclination? Lately, I have seen so much of the opposite that I wonder if there are devout SSA people who fully agree and encourage others to follow the teachings of the Church.

God bless on this Divine Mercy Sunday!

Domer,

I rarely see this. I believe it may be that some that are SSA see a sense of hostility from the CAF at large.

What I do see is those that use subtle ways to attempt to engage the CAF to undermine Church teachings…some are Catholic, some are Anglican, Methodist, just Christian…some come from Canada, the United Kingdom and USA…

Statements like this…either Essentialism in nature or Social Construct in nature

Homosexuality is like the color of your eyes…
We should love them as they are as they can’t change
Orientation is as fixed as anything else

and

What would it look like to be in this state?
Society is what dictates Homosexuality, if there were acceptance then we would see…
The culture in the past was different and the culture now is changing so that

Essentialism or the Social Construct arguments are at the basis of most attempting to undermine Catholic teaching…

I rarely see what you ask…

 

[CopticChristian]

I promised myself during Holy Week that I wouldn’t get into these threads again…but I think for this topic I can make an exception.

I am a gay Christian. Raised in a Christian home, by loving Christian parents who were married over 50 years. Went to excellent Catholic schools, never used drugs and used no more alcohol than the average college student. Never watched porn, and was never abused by anyone. ALWAYS knew that something was different-but didn’t know there was a word for it until my peers in school taught me. When all the other kids were starting to act on their attractions to the opposite sex, I knew that my attractions were not the same.

I lived “the life” for quite a while-through college, grad school, law school-up until about 15 years ago. I took a long hard look at my life and realized that I wasn’t truly happy, and I missed the relationship with God I had as a kid. I was in a relationship at the time, we’d been together 10 years. It wasn’t easy, but nothing worthwhile is. We dealt with issues from some friends, but truly not many of them. I still have most of those friends, and while they don’t really understand my choice, they respect it. I’ve been without a relationship for almost 15 years now, and I’m happier than I have ever been.

I DO try and share my experience with friends, but frankly, I’m fighting an uphill battle. Too many of the folks I talk to have been damaged by so-called “Christians” who have preached a message of condemnation. They might be my friends and agree that I can be a Christian and like them-but they won’t set foot in a Church or get involved with “straight” Christians.

It’s why I came here, actually. I wanted to help other Christians dialogue with gay people and lead them to Christ-help them to understand the language and the needs of gay people.

I decided right around Holy Week that I had had enough banging my head against the wall here, and that I was falling into a trap of pride and a desire to be “right”. So I started focusing outward on the friends I have in real life, and on my own walk with Christ.

I believe the ONLY way to change our culture is to convince more people that Jesus loves them and wants the best of life for them. I believe my job is to lead them to Jesus, and then let Jesus do the work on their hearts the way He did on mine and my ex. We weren’t convinced to change because someone told us our lives were an “abomination”, we were convinced to change because people showed us a different life with Jesus.

The problems we talk about here daily have a solution. It’s changing people’s relationship with God. It’s not passing laws, or electing politicians. It’s doing the hard work of getting close to people and helping them to see the love of Christ in us and showing them that they can have that too. I know from my own experience that once you connect with that love, you WANT to change. You WANT to do what God says.

So, yes…there are gay people here who want other gay people to live in Christ. I’m only one of them.

Seeker,

This is thoughtful and helpful…

We both felt the same pull, as we’d had similar childhoods. In the end, we both chose to end the relationship and return to the Church.

You point out dramatically that a decision to choose one thing or another and seek a relationship with the creation vs the creator was your motivation to do what you do.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Have you ever seen a SSA person post in favor of the Catholic teachings as a means of supporting his fellow Christians that suffer with this inclination?

There’s a thread right here that was started a few days ago exactly like that.

 

[coachdennis]

Congratulations.

I am certain that you have a very difficult cross to bear. But I am always gratified to hear when a man or woman with SSA chooses to take up that cross.

One question, though. When you say,
I believe the ONLY way to change our culture is to convince more people that Jesus loves them and wants the best of life for them. I believe my job is to lead them to Jesus, and then let Jesus do the work on their hearts the way He did on mine and my ex. We weren’t convinced to change because someone told us our lives were an "abomination", we were convinced to change because people showed us a different life with Jesus.
Are you saying that people should just ignore that issue? Or are you saying that the truth should be presented but in a more sensitive (I guess that’s the word) way?

The reason I ask this is because people of our era were raised in one fashion, but with how the culture these days has declined, it’s entirely possible that teens and twenty-somethings may honestly have never had their consciences initially formed. Fewer kids are churched in any way at all (trust me, I see that from teaching CCD…and those kids are the “churched” ones), many “Christian” traditions are becoming more and more compromised on the subject, and Lord help the person who dares speak anything about homosexuality other than in the most glowing terms within a public (and even a lot of Catholic) school setting, therapeutic setting, or the workplace (particularly if one works for the government or for a Fortune 500 company).

While I can appreciate that bounding a King James Version Bible over a person’s head and telling them that they are going to hell and nothing they can do will stop them from that eventual destination is not the way to win converts, is speaking the words from the catechism…both the parts about homosexual conduct and about “orientation”… too strong as well?

I ask for real world purposes…not for purposes of an online forum, where I will continue to be a complete hardnosed jerk.

What I took Seeker to mean by this statement was:

repeatedly saying you’re going to hell or you’re an abomination or something in that vein hasn’t worked that well, why not try this???

I know it’s a challenge for me and all others who are serious about evangelizing to meditate on this:

If “you” are the person who is trying to bring the Church and the message of Jesus to someone and “you” say that Jesus is the core of your being — how is that manifested in your life? How is your life so different than the atheist down the street who gives to charity, shovels the walk for his elderly neighbor, or volunteers at a soup kitchen? What is it in your life that shows the Holy Spirit at work? How is your life different because you believe in Jesus? You’ll still have financial problems, illness, fears, and daily problems (big and small) – how is your reaction and actions to those things any different because you are a believer than a non-believer? Are they any different? If they aren’t why should I change my life and become a believer?

 

[markomalley]

What I took Seeker to mean by this statement was:

repeatedly saying you’re going to hell or you’re an abomination or something in that vein hasn’t worked that well, why not try this???

I know it’s a challenge for me and all others who are serious about evangelizing to meditate on this:

If “you” are the person who is trying to bring the Church and the message of Jesus to someone and “you” say that Jesus is the core of your being — how is that manifested in your life? How is your life so different than the atheist down the street who gives to charity, shovels the walk for his elderly neighbor, or volunteers at a soup kitchen? What is it in your life that shows the Holy Spirit at work? How is your life different because you believe in Jesus? You’ll still have financial problems, illness, fears, and daily problems (big and small) – how is your reaction and actions to those things any different because you are a believer than a non-believer? Are they any different? If they aren’t why should I change my life and become a believer?

I got al that, but I actually am looking forward to Seeker’s answer to the question.

 

[Seeker1961]

I got al that, but I actually am looking forward to Seeker’s answer to the question.

And I promise to do just that later today…visiting Mom now. Didn’t want you all to think I posted and ran.

 

[90Domer]

I promised myself during Holy Week that I wouldn’t get into these threads again…but I think for this topic I can make an exception.

I am a gay Christian. Raised in a Christian home, by loving Christian parents who were married over 50 years. Went to excellent Catholic schools, never used drugs and used no more alcohol than the average college student. Never watched porn, and was never abused by anyone. ALWAYS knew that something was different-but didn’t know there was a word for it until my peers in school taught me. When all the other kids were starting to act on their attractions to the opposite sex, I knew that my attractions were not the same.

I lived “the life” for quite a while-through college, grad school, law school-up until about 15 years ago. I took a long hard look at my life and realized that I wasn’t truly happy, and I missed the relationship with God I had as a kid. I was in a relationship at the time, we’d been together 10 years. We both felt the same pull, as we’d had similar childhoods. In the end, we both chose to end the relationship and return to the Church. It wasn’t easy, but nothing worthwhile is. We dealt with issues from some friends, but truly not many of them. I still have most of those friends, and while they don’t really understand my choice, they respect it. I’ve been without a relationship for almost 15 years now, and I’m happier than I have ever been.

I DO try and share my experience with friends, but frankly, I’m fighting an uphill battle. Too many of the folks I talk to have been damaged by so-called “Christians” who have preached a message of condemnation. They might be my friends and agree that I can be a Christian and like them-but they won’t set foot in a Church or get involved with “straight” Christians.

It’s why I came here, actually. I wanted to help other Christians dialogue with gay people and lead them to Christ-help them to understand the language and the needs of gay people.

I decided right around Holy Week that I had had enough banging my head against the wall here, and that I was falling into a trap of pride and a desire to be “right”. So I started focusing outward on the friends I have in real life, and on my own walk with Christ.

I believe the ONLY way to change our culture is to convince more people that Jesus loves them and wants the best of life for them. I believe my job is to lead them to Jesus, and then let Jesus do the work on their hearts the way He did on mine and my ex. We weren’t convinced to change because someone told us our lives were an “abomination”, we were convinced to change because people showed us a different life with Jesus.

The problems we talk about here daily have a solution. It’s changing people’s relationship with God. It’s not passing laws, or electing politicians. It’s doing the hard work of getting close to people and helping them to see the love of Christ in us and showing them that they can have that too. I know from my own experience that once you connect with that love, you WANT to change. You WANT to do what God says.

So, yes…there are gay people here who want other gay people to live in Christ. I’m only one of them.

God bless you on a wonderful story! And your former partner too! Your reward will be great in Heaven!

 

[Seeker1961]

Congratulations.

I am certain that you have a very difficult cross to bear. But I am always gratified to hear when a man or woman with SSA chooses to take up that cross.

One question, though. When you say,
I believe the ONLY way to change our culture is to convince more people that Jesus loves them and wants the best of life for them. I believe my job is to lead them to Jesus, and then let Jesus do the work on their hearts the way He did on mine and my ex. We weren’t convinced to change because someone told us our lives were an "abomination", we were convinced to change because people showed us a different life with Jesus.
Are you saying that people should just ignore that issue? Or are you saying that the truth should be presented but in a more sensitive (I guess that’s the word) way?

The reason I ask this is because people of our era were raised in one fashion, but with how the culture these days has declined, it’s entirely possible that teens and twenty-somethings may honestly have never had their consciences initially formed. Fewer kids are churched in any way at all (trust me, I see that from teaching CCD…and those kids are the “churched” ones), many “Christian” traditions are becoming more and more compromised on the subject, and Lord help the person who dares speak anything about homosexuality other than in the most glowing terms within a public (and even a lot of Catholic) school setting, therapeutic setting, or the workplace (particularly if one works for the government or for a Fortune 500 company).

While I can appreciate that bounding a King James Version Bible over a person’s head and telling them that they are going to hell and nothing they can do will stop them from that eventual destination is not the way to win converts, is speaking the words from the catechism…both the parts about homosexual conduct and about “orientation”… too strong as well?

I ask for real world purposes…not for purposes of an online forum, where I will continue to be a complete hardnosed jerk.

Ok, what I meant by that was the human draw back to the Church was the difference I saw in the people around me and how they lived their lives. Their lives weren’t perfect, but they had this peace about them, this sense of hope even in the face of difficulty. I wanted what they had. So, I did what they did, and followed the example of how they lived their lives. I went to Church again, prayed again and picked up my Bible again. I reached out for God, and God reached back. Now, I know that God was reaching out for me all that time, even when I was away-but it was the people in my life that drew me. And not one of them ever said anything to me about Church teaching on homosexuality.

Now, my partner and I were raised Catholic so we knew church teaching, so maybe that’s why nobody we knew ever brought it up. I went to Catholic schools and university, so I had read the church documents and done the study. However, Church teaching on homosexuality is no secret-even among many gay people who have zero connection to the Church. It’s VERY clear to many gay people in and out of the Church that partnerships are not allowed, and marriage will never be allowed. The words “disordered” and “abomination” have made it into even the furthest corners of the gay community.

However, what many gay people outside the church don’t know is that those prohibitions and words aren’t the whole story. They don’t know how much God loves them and wants to be in their lives. They don’t know that what they think is impossible IS possible with God. They don’t understand the concept of “disordered” as the Church defines it, they just know the common interpretation which is negative, and sends a message of “you’re not as good as us”. They don’t use the term “same sex attraction”, to them, that’s what being gay means-so why use 3 words when one does just fine?

What I am trying to do in my life is to do for those outside the Church what people did for me, and to help those inside the Church who have gay friends and family members by showing them what helped me and what might help the people in their lives. I hoped by sharing my experience I could help others.

At the same time, I still respect the choices of those who are not yet ready to make the leap I have made. I know how long it took me, and I believe God chooses that time-so who am I to force that choice on another or reject them if they don’t make it when I think they should?

 

[aspirant]

Have you ever seen a SSA person post in favor of the Catholic teachings as a means of supporting his fellow Christians that suffer with this inclination?

Yes.

FWIW, not all faithful gay Catholics would reduce their experience to “suffering.” Here’s an example:
"Aaron Saunderson-Cross:

If we’re going to convince other gay people of the truth and grace of the Catholic faith then we need our own language with which to do it. Sadly gay people tend to lack subjectivity in the Church being relegated to those ‘suffering’ or ‘struggling’ or victims of a ‘condition’: all of which disenfranchises gay Catholic people and their experiences. I don’t know about you but the thing I struggle with most is having to listen to others bemoan my ‘condition’!

I am a gay Christian… I DO try and share my experience with friends, but frankly, I’m fighting an uphill battle. Too many of the folks I talk to have been damaged by so-called “Christians” who have preached a message of condemnation. They might be my friends and agree that I can be a Christian and like them-but they won’t set foot in a Church or get involved with “straight” Christians.

It’s why I came here, actually. I wanted to help other Christians dialogue with gay people and lead them to Christ-help them to understand the language and the needs of gay people…

So, yes…there are gay people here who want other gay people to live in Christ. I’m only one of them.

Great post, Seeker. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Kolbe300]

However, what many gay people outside the church don’t know is that those prohibitions and words aren’t the whole story. They don’t know how much God loves them and wants to be in their lives. They don’t know that what they think is impossible IS possible with God. They don’t understand the concept of “disordered” as the Church defines it, they just know the common interpretation which is negative, and sends a message of “you’re not as good as us”. They don’t use the term “same sex attraction”, to them, that’s what being gay means-so why use 3 words when one does just fine?

What I am trying to do in my life is to do for those outside the Church what people did for me, and to help those inside the Church who have gay friends and family members by showing them what helped me and what might help the people in their lives. I hoped by sharing my experience I could help others.

At the same time, I still respect the choices of those who are not yet ready to make the leap I have made. I know how long it took me, and I believe God chooses that time-so who am I to force that choice on another or reject them if they don’t make it when I think they should?

Another fantastic post, Seeker. Thank you!

 

[Elizabeth502]

They don’t understand the concept of “disordered” as the Church defines it, they just know the common interpretation which is negative, and sends a message of “you’re not as good as us”. They don’t use the term “same sex attraction”, to them, that’s what being gay means-so why use 3 words when one does just fine?

Because, for those of us who had possibly an even more hard-core immersion in Catholic philosophy, we understand the verb “to be” to be connected, philosophically, with essence, and the concept of “personhood” to center on essence, not accidents, attractions, or other variables. It also smarts when others point out my own (non-sexual, but seemingly permanent) disordered attractions, but I can’t deny that (a) they’re disordered, and that (b) they are not essential to me. For anyone to equate my disordered attractions with my personhood would be a violation of my dignity, and an affront. Long-term, even permanent, does not equate to essential, that’s all. I understand that for you a three-letter word is equivalent to 3 words with 5 syllables, but the meaning in Catholic theology is quite different. And the implications for spirituality are very different.

At the same time, I still respect the choices of those who are not yet ready to make the leap I have made. I know how long it took me, and I believe God chooses that time-so who am I to force that choice on another or reject them if they don’t make it when I think they should?

I have always believed that, and so has the Church. The Church never contradicts the patience of God’s own mercy. And it’s just as true for everyone who has drifted away.

And while I appreciate what you yourself say the understanding is among the homosexual community you are acquainted it, the fact is, that that understanding is not universal within the Church. There are still some people in partnered relationships that oppose the teachings but receive the sacraments (and oppose the entire theology of the family & reproduction), and there are still some clergy that support such open lifestyles in a Catholic context. (Just as there are many heterosexual couples openly opposing teachings in various ways and also causing scandal and confusion.) Maybe there are regional differences in what you and I both observe and have personal knowledge of, but your perception that all gay people supposedly completely understand the teachings and respect them (within a Catholic context) is not a perception which is backed by evidence.

Frankly, though, I hardly think that’s the biggest problem in the Church or the biggest concern. The secularization of Catholics is far more of a problem for the Church.

The take-away from your story, i.m.o., is that “the gay lifestyle” ultimately disappoints, as does a cohabiting lifestyle among unmarried heterosexals. Naturally the Church has always known that, and St. Augustine in particular taught and showed us all that possibly the best of all. By contrast, the “religion” that is forced on us Catholics, by those on the outside who claim to speak for the homosexual community, is that relationships of any kind which are “monogamous and committed” are (a) fulfilling (b) sanctified or sanctifiable (c) interchangeable with traditional marriage.

And there are plenty of people within the Church who also mistakenly believe that.

 

[markomalley]

Ok, what I meant by that was the human draw back to the Church was the difference I saw in the people around me and how they lived their lives. Their lives weren’t perfect, but they had this peace about them, this sense of hope even in the face of difficulty. I wanted what they had. So, I did what they did, and followed the example of how they lived their lives. I went to Church again, prayed again and picked up my Bible again. I reached out for God, and God reached back. Now, I know that God was reaching out for me all that time, even when I was away-but it was the people in my life that drew me. And not one of them ever said anything to me about Church teaching on homosexuality.

Now, my partner and I were raised Catholic so we knew church teaching, so maybe that’s why nobody we knew ever brought it up. I went to Catholic schools and university, so I had read the church documents and done the study. However, Church teaching on homosexuality is no secret-even among many gay people who have zero connection to the Church. It’s VERY clear to many gay people in and out of the Church that partnerships are not allowed, and marriage will never be allowed. The words “disordered” and “abomination” have made it into even the furthest corners of the gay community.

However, what many gay people outside the church don’t know is that those prohibitions and words aren’t the whole story. They don’t know how much God loves them and wants to be in their lives. They don’t know that what they think is impossible IS possible with God. They don’t understand the concept of “disordered” as the Church defines it, they just know the common interpretation which is negative, and sends a message of “you’re not as good as us”. They don’t use the term “same sex attraction”, to them, that’s what being gay means-so why use 3 words when one does just fine?

What I am trying to do in my life is to do for those outside the Church what people did for me, and to help those inside the Church who have gay friends and family members by showing them what helped me and what might help the people in their lives. I hoped by sharing my experience I could help others.

At the same time, I still respect the choices of those who are not yet ready to make the leap I have made. I know how long it took me, and I believe God chooses that time-so who am I to force that choice on another or reject them if they don’t make it when I think they should?

Fair enough. Thanks.

So if we are talking with somebody with SSA and **he/she **brings up the topic, do you believe the response should be:

• forthright (obviously with charity) – in other words, this is what the Church teaches…period,
• philosophical (again, with charity) – in other words, this is why the Church teaches what She does…
• avoidance – in other words, a “God loves you and accepts you” (and avoiding the teaching on homosexuality)

I do appreciate you taking the time…again, don’t expect this to have a significant impact on my online interactions, but it will have a significant impact on my in-person interactions.

 

[Soren_Itenu]

Seeker1961, thank you for that testimony! Praise God for what He’s done in your life!

 

[Seeker1961]

[QUOTEFair enough. Thanks.

So if we are talking with somebody with SSA and he/she brings up the topic, do you believe the response should be:
forthright (obviously with charity) – in other words, this is what the Church teaches…period,
philosophical (again, with charity) – in other words, this is why the Church teaches what She does…
avoidance – in other words, a “God loves you and accepts you” (and avoiding the teaching on homosexuality)

I do appreciate you taking the time…again, don’t expect this to have a significant impact on my online interactions, but it will have a significant impact on my in-person interactions.
[/QUOTE]

It depends on the situation. In the interactions I’ve had, I’ve gone philosophical mostly-because the people I’ve been talking to know what they think the teachings are, but they don’t really understand them. In all of my life-in and out of the community-I have never met a gay person who doesn’t know what they think the Church thinks of them. I’ve noticed that any time I discuss this issue, I find I need to go heavily on how much God loves them because that’s the piece that they don’t know and can’t relate to because of the language they hear and how they interpret it.

Now, you can say that how they interpret language is their fault, and we don’t have to adjust ours for them…but, if our language is creating a barrier or a stumbling block wouldn’t that be something we’d WANT to change?

I have to ask-why are your online interactions different from your in-person interactions? When you’re talking to a friend or family member, you know more about them so it’s easier to have that dialogue. You’re right there, so you can read their body language and see how what you’re saying is impacting them. Online, you have no idea who is reading. You don’t know where they are in their journey, you don’t know how much they know or don’t know. They may be coming here taking their first hesitant steps toward Catholicism. I said that many gay people I know won’t go anywhere near a church, a Priest or even Christians they know, because of past interactions that haven’t gone well. Online might be the ONLY place they would go to seek information about God. IMHO, that means I want to be MORE mindful of the words I use and the tone I take online, because I don’t want to push anyone away who might be answering a call from God in the only way they feel safe.

 

[Seeker1961]

Because, for those of us who had possibly an even more hard-core immersion in Catholic philosophy, we understand the verb “to be” to be connected, philosophically, with essence, and the concept of “personhood” to center on essence, not accidents, attractions, or other variables. It also smarts when others point out my own (non-sexual, but seemingly permanent) disordered attractions, but I can’t deny that (a) they’re disordered, and that (b) they are not essential to me. For anyone to equate my disordered attractions with my personhood would be a violation of my dignity, and an affront. Long-term, even permanent, does not equate to essential, that’s all. I understand that for you a three-letter word is equivalent to 3 words with 5 syllables, but the meaning in Catholic theology is quite different. And the implications for spirituality are very different.

I have always believed that, and so has the Church. The Church never contradicts the patience of God’s own mercy. And it’s just as true for everyone who has drifted away.

And while I appreciate what you yourself say the understanding is among the homosexual community you are acquainted it, the fact is, that that understanding is not universal within the Church. There are still some people in partnered relationships that oppose the teachings but receive the sacraments (and oppose the entire theology of the family & reproduction), and there are still some clergy that support such open lifestyles in a Catholic context. (Just as there are many heterosexual couples openly opposing teachings in various ways and also causing scandal and confusion.) Maybe there are regional differences in what you and I both observe and have personal knowledge of, but your perception that all gay people supposedly completely understand the teachings and respect them (within a Catholic context) is not a perception which is backed by evidence.

Frankly, though, I hardly think that’s the biggest problem in the Church or the biggest concern. The secularization of Catholics is far more of a problem for the Church.

The take-away from your story, i.m.o., is that “the gay lifestyle” ultimately disappoints, as does a cohabiting lifestyle among unmarried heterosexals. Naturally the Church has always known that, and St. Augustine in particular taught and showed us all that possibly the best of all. By contrast, the “religion” that is forced on us Catholics, by those on the outside who claim to speak for the homosexual community, is that relationships of any kind which are “monogamous and committed” are (a) fulfilling (b) sanctified or sanctifiable (c) interchangeable with traditional marriage.

And there are plenty of people within the Church who also mistakenly believe that.

You and I understand ALL that, because we have the foundation. The people I’m talking about (and I never said “all”, I used “many”) do not have the blessings of that foundation. I also don’t believe that everyone who visits here has that kind of foundation. We understand what “disordered” means, and we understand that our inclinations to sin are not our identity. For me that came from lifelong, excellent Catholic education, something that I think we all can agree is not the norm in society. The “secularization” you refer to is a pure example of that.

If you had asked me years ago if my relationship was “fulfilling” I would have given you a definitive YES. I had very few relationships in the life, and they were monogamous and committed. We didn’t cheat on each other, that would have been just as wrong to us as if we were married. Our “gay lifestyle” included going to school, work, grocery shopping, dinner with friends, household chores…exactly the same as the straight couples we knew. We knew people who weren’t monogamous and committed, (both gay and straight) but they weren’t part of our inner circle, because we didn’t approve of that behavior. No matter who you are, that stuff just causes pain.

What led me out of the life wasn’t really about the quality of the relationship, it was a deeper thing, something that’s really hard to put into words. It was that restlessness that Augustine describes, I guess.