observation: many parishioners neglect to perform required gestures during Mass

[maryjk]

See post 8 and 11.

But what would be wrong to take notice of it **and pass it on to Father **so that proper catehesis could be done?

The volume going down would be a sign of people bowing.

But how would you know that people weren’t? Or how many? Do you really think that a person in the pew is in a better position to see and hear what is happening? A better position than the priest standing in front of everyone?

“I’m sorry, Father, but I don’t think you have noticed as you stand up there facing all of us, but most people are not bowing. I have noticed this because the volume doesn’t go down as much as I think it should, and I think you need to tell people what to do.”

“Oh, and people are leaving right after Communion! I have noticed this because I am not kneeling and praying after I receive. Instead I am counting how many people slip out the door.”

 

[Netty1]

I don’t watch what other people do or do not do. The only gesture that bothers me is the peace wave to every corner of the church. Its not so obvious on Sundays when the church is crowded but during the week it’s like they can’t miss waving to a single person in the church. That is distracting. I don’t notice if people beat their chest or bow at the right time.

At a discussion group in our Parish we were talking about the various sections of the Mass and the Priest asked us to comment on the bits of the Mass we loved the most (and why) and the bits which we either didn’t appreciate or just plain did not understand.

Every person said exactly the same thing to the second question. No-one liked, appreciated or understood (in varying measures) the “sign of peace” handshaking. Some of the older Catholics commented that it was far too “C of E” and seemed out of place. Everyone agreed that at times it becomes unseemly when some folks try to leap-frog over the pews just to touch skin with someone 4 rows behind - especially as you say - when the church is less crowded (early morning weekday Masses etc).

I’m a convert, so I came to this fresh and with no preconceived notions. But I do have to say that of all the sections in the Mass, this is the one which really “jars”, it seems to unbalance the flow and rhythm of the Priest’s work at the altar.

 

[Usige]

This is really important to people? It strikes me a bit nosey.

And you would not like my parish. Nobody kneels.

I guess your parish is just consistent in ignoring the instructions for the liturgy? If so then yes I would not like going to your parish.

The liturgy isn’t a private expression of faith, but a public one. If you go to bow during the creed it is not being nosey to notice voices that were beside your ears are now above and behind them.

The point of the OP is that people seem to be fine holding hands which is not instructed in the GIRM, but those gestures that are clearly spelled out aren’t followed. As others have pointed out its not a so much a question of what, but rather a question of why.

 

[johnnyc176]

The volume going down would be a sign of people bowing.

But how would you know that people weren’t? Or how many? Do you really think that a person in the pew is in a better position to see and hear what is happening? A better position than the priest standing in front of everyone?

“I’m sorry, Father, but I don’t think you have noticed as you stand up there facing all of us, but most people are not bowing. I have noticed this because the volume doesn’t go down as much as I think it should, and I think you need to tell people what to do.”

“Oh, and people are leaving right after Communion! I have noticed this because I am not kneeling and praying after I receive. Instead I am counting how many people slip out the door.”

Just a general thing not pointing out specifically. Just what has been suggested in post # 5

 

[illinidiva]

I guess your parish is just consistent in ignoring the instructions for the liturgy? If so then yes I would not like going to your parish.

The liturgy isn’t a private expression of faith, but a public one. If you go to bow during the creed it is not being nosey to notice voices that were beside your ears are now above and behind them.

The point of the OP is that people seem to be fine holding hands which is not instructed in the GIRM, but those gestures that are clearly spelled out aren’t followed. As others have pointed out its not a so much a question of what, but rather a question of why.

I could get it if babies were crying or people were talking on cellphones but this really prevents one from worshipping?

 

[Tigg]

Nosiness is digging into other people’s private business. What people do at Mass is public.

And we haven’t even spoken yet, of the disunity during liturgy with everyone doing whatever they prefer.

 

[johnnykins]

… and then finally, 30% will leave the church directly after Communion, foregoing the final blessing.

Actually this is an organic development - it’s been part of Catholic praxis since well before my memories which ante-date Vatican II.

I am informed that Eastern Catholics and the Orthodox have a complementary practice of arriving late. If we pushed it like hand holding, I’m sure we could eliminate attendance at the Mass/Divine Liturgy altogether.

 

[3DOCTORS]

It seems that 90% of my parish will engage in hand holding during the Our Father, but the same number will neglect to beat their chests three times during the Penitential Rite, neglect to bow at the appropriate time during the Profession of Faith, and then finally, 30% will leave the church directly after Communion, foregoing the final blessing. I believe that this a problem of a lack of proper catechesis.

Actually, I have noticed it too. And it just occurred to me, I just happened to notice; I was not standing there playing “liturgy cop” and trying to catch anyone out. I also understand that if one is new it takes time to form habits, and sometimes people hesitate out of awkwardness. That’s overcome with time and practice. But what I have also noticed is that there has been a drop-off of these practices in the months since the new Mass translation began being used. Maybe people just forget - it might be a great time for a “refresher course.”

I’d like to urge folks to beware of crossing a line into insinuating hypocrisy or busybodyness toward those who are only pointing out these observations. Those who are tempted to accuse others of neglecting their own prayer and devotion just to watch other people at Mass in hopes of catching someone in error (which I don’t think happens that much) might want to examine their own motives for crying “hypocrite!”. Because isn’t playing “hypocrite cop” also a bit prideful? Just sayin’.

Although it’s not quite so bad at my parish, there still aren’t that many who bow or beat their chest. On a couple occasions, our priest has mentioned this and explained to people that they’re expected to do it. I think that’s had an impact and if he mentioned it a few more times he’d get a lot of the others joining in. He’s mentioned leaving early a bit more often so we now have a lot fewer people sprinting for the door, host in hand.

Our pastor has been very diligent in the 3 or so years he has been at our parish about exhorting people to “come early and stay late” - to come to Mass early enough to get settled and read the readings, and to stay afterward and say a prayer of thanksgiving. It’s been like herding cats and sometimes he’s been frustrated - and I don’t blame him! People’s attitudes are so slothful and they act like Mass is just something to “get over with” rather than the amazing, incomprehensible blessing it really is.

The most important thing to keep in mind about all of this is that the rubrics of the Mass should be observed, reverently and with understanding. If you’re feeling that they’re a nuisance or an annoyance or pointless, talk to your priest or read up on the reasons why these gestures have been incorporated into the Mass (or revived after falling into disuse). In this modern world sometimes we might feel silly or uncomfortable - but is that going to kill us? If it bugs you that much to thump your chest three times, can you not think of Jesus being beaten and crucified, and offer up your discomfort, and ask God what He might be trying to teach you?

 

[Erich]

What’s a bow? A profound bow? Who defines profound bow? How far do you go down?

At the time, our pastor said that if you can touch your knees while bowing, it’s a profound bow.

I’m glad he said “knees” and not “toes”

 

[johnnyc176]

The volume going down would be a sign of people bowing.

But how would you know that people weren’t? Or how many? Do you really think that a person in the pew is in a better position to see and hear what is happening? A better position than the priest standing in front of everyone?

“I’m sorry, Father, but I don’t think you have noticed as you stand up there facing all of us, but most people are not bowing. I have noticed this because the volume doesn’t go down as much as I think it should, and I think you need to tell people what to do.”

“Oh, and people are leaving right after Communion! I have noticed this because I am not kneeling and praying after I receive. Instead I am counting how many people slip out the door.”

In my parish the OF and EF are both celebrated ad orientem so there’s that. As I posted earlier it’s not in individual type thing just something to help good catechesis. For instance it was pointed out to Father that children were receiving Confirmation but were not attending Mass. So he wrote an article in the bulletin and made it a part of a homily.

 

[blaskoman]

Im not sure if genuflecting is a required gesture, but I also notice that hardly anyone genuflects (or bows to the altar if a tabernacle is absent) before entering their pew prior to Mass.

 

[MorEphrem]

I’ve learned it’s not my place to notice these things and if the priest doesn’t correct people your own correction will probably just spark enmity, regardless of how charitably it’s done. Plus many times we might just misinterpret; I had a friend who pulled out his phone during mass and I got annoyed and was about to tell him to put it away but I realized he had a readings app. I’ve also had a friend who would stand during the Eucharistic Prayer when everyone would kneel and some people would give her dagger stares and what not but she had a sports injury-related surgery in her knees.

Best one focuses on their own prayer, in my humble opinion.

 

[ProVobis]

Hand holding has already been discussed.

Chest-beating probably isn’t done because people just don’t know.

As for not bowing in the Creed, I have my own theory as to why many many many people don’t do it:

Bowing is, socially, an awkward behavior, because it averts the eyes. When one bows, generally–but not always–the eyes are also downcast. Also, that is the only time in Mass when the people bow.

If the traditional posture of genuflecting was prescribed always, I am certain that most everybody would do it. First, everybody could see the priest clearly doing it. Second, everybody could see everybody else doing it. The social motivator, a very strong motivator (don’t discount it) that is present from seeing everybody else do it, which itself is possible because the body is still erect, is extremely important for these kinds of things. Third, people already genuflect in church two other times usually: once before and once after Mass. It is an act that everybody knows how to do, even if many don’t do it very well!

Finally, bowing is a very liberally interpretable thing. What’s a bow? A profound bow? Who defines profound bow? How far do you go down? At least with genuflecting you know exactly what it is supposed to look like, even if some don’t do it all the way, either because they won’t or can’t. In any case, it is very clear-cut that a proper genuflection is one in which the knee touches the ground.

It is my opinion, very respectfully put, that the rubric of bowing during the Creed simply does not work as a matter of practice. It is done in some parishes by many or most people, but in my experience, in most places few or no people do it at all.

I am quite confident that my assertions would hold up in a proper experiment, and I would love to do one.

Even when serving as a kid, I found profound bowing to be very awkward. The strange part was that at the Confiteor I found it not a problem when kneeling.

 

[Bergon]

It seems that 90% of my parish will engage in hand holding during the Our Father, but the same number will neglect to beat their chests three times during the Penitential Rite, neglect to bow at the appropriate time during the Profession of Faith, and then finally, 30% will leave the church directly after Communion, foregoing the final blessing. I believe that this a problem of a lack of proper catechesis.

I agree but :banghead:

 

[OraLabora]

Here’s the thing: concentrating on other peoples’ foibles can lead to nothing but frustration. It’s like a person trying to get their spouse to “change”. The only direct control we have is over ourselves (and then even if that, since all of us are to some degree or another addicted to our passions!).

Concerning the Mass, there will always be people who don’t know, don’t want to make the effort to know, don’t care, mumble and not sing/respond, don’t say anything, don’t make the right gestures, and the list goes on. It’s got nothing to do with the form of the Mass either; many older folks used to pre-Vatican II can tell you about the men outside smoking during Mass, not responding because it wasn’t a dialogue Mass, leaving after communion, etc.

If one does care about those things, then one does them one’s self and works out one’s own salvation with “trembling and fear”, and leave the rest up to God’s Grace and mercy; Lord knows even those of us who know and do the correct gestures and responses at Mass, still need plenty of that Grace and Mercy. There’s no way of knowing that the person who is lackadaisical about Mass gestures isn’t really already a saint known to God, caring for the elderly, donating his or her time to a homeless shelter, soup kitchen or hospital, etc.

We’re human, and humanity is often messy, and what count’s is what’s inside…

 

[John_Lazarus]

At the time, our pastor said that if you can touch your knees while bowing, it’s a profound bow.

I’m glad he said “knees” and not “toes”

If I can touch my toes while I’m bowing, I ain’t getting up again.

In the case of genuflecting, my genu don’t flect very far any more. If my knee touches the ground, it’ll most likely be because it ain’t attached no more.

 

[John_Lazarus]

Finally, bowing is a very liberally interpretable thing.** What’s a bow? A profound bow? Who defines profound bow? How far do you go down? **At least with genuflecting you know exactly what it is supposed to look like, even if some don’t do it all the way, either because they won’t or can’t. In any case, it is very clear-cut that a proper genuflection is one in which the knee touches the ground.

It’s obvious it’s not only bad catechesis but bad geometry. Nuns in schools should not only have been armed with rulers, but with protractors.

 

[jeanannemarie]

Good question.

If you are bowing down, during the Profession of Faith, how do you notice who isn’t bowing?

This thread is about bowing, not bowing, and striking or not striking the chest three times. We are supposed to do it and that is what this thread is about. What is the point of your remark? A person has a right to make observations and I for one thought that was the point of the forum, to discuss these things.

 

[ProVobis]

Concerning the Mass, there will always be people who don’t know, don’t want to make the effort to know, don’t care, mumble and not sing/respond, don’t say anything, don’t make the right gestures, and the list goes on. It’s got nothing to do with the form of the Mass either; many older folks used to pre-Vatican II can tell you about the men outside smoking during Mass, not responding because it wasn’t a dialogue Mass, leaving after communion, etc.

And the pre-Vatican II Mass was/is often criticized for being TOO strict (so many bows, so many crosses, so many genuflections, so many strikes of the heart, etc.) and TOO uniform (one language, etc.) Go figure.

 

[3DOCTORS]

And the pre-Vatican II Mass was/is often criticized for being TOO strict (so many bows, so many crosses, so many genuflections, so many strikes of the heart, etc.) and TOO uniform (one language, etc.) Go figure.

I was a kid when it changed so I don’t remember a lot, but it seems like then people didn’t whine about the requirements until after they were changed. Then they wondered how they - or anyone - stood it all those years. Someone correct me if I’m mistaken.

(BTW, I like either form of the Mass myself - I just want to see reverence . . . and I know people in the pews are at different places with it - it needs to be encouraged though.)