observation: many parishioners neglect to perform required gestures during Mass

[Elizium23]

It is only required to strike one’s breast one time. Three is a legitimate option and it is widespread in my parish.

Nobody else bows their head at the appropriate times.

 

[illinidiva]

OraLabora. I agree with you. I believe that this is the inner-looking focus that Pope Francis wants us to try and avoid. I’ve even seen people critique priests after the Mass. When something little like this annoy me, I’m trying to think of the big picture… Perhaps pray for the Christians in the Middle East.

 

[ProVobis]

I was a kid when it changed so I don’t remember a lot, but it seems like then people didn’t whine about the requirements until after they were changed. Then they wondered how they - or anyone - stood it all those years. Someone correct me if I’m mistaken.

Seems human nature operates that way. I don’t think you’re mistaken at all.

 

[TimothyH]

Here’s the thing: concentrating on other peoples’ foibles can lead to nothing but frustration. It’s like a person trying to get their spouse to “change”. The only direct control we have is over ourselves (and then even if that, since all of us are to some degree or another addicted to our passions!).

Concerning the Mass, there will always be people who don’t know, don’t want to make the effort to know, don’t care, mumble and not sing/respond, don’t say anything, don’t make the right gestures, and the list goes on. It’s got nothing to do with the form of the Mass either; many older folks used to pre-Vatican II can tell you about the men outside smoking during Mass, not responding because it wasn’t a dialogue Mass, leaving after communion, etc.

If one does care about those things, then one does them one’s self and works out one’s own salvation with “trembling and fear”, and leave the rest up to God’s Grace and mercy; Lord knows even those of us who know and do the correct gestures and responses at Mass, still need plenty of that Grace and Mercy. There’s no way of knowing that the person who is lackadaisical about Mass gestures isn’t really already a saint known to God, caring for the elderly, donating his or her time to a homeless shelter, soup kitchen or hospital, etc.

We’re human, and humanity is often messy, and what count’s is what’s inside…

This is profound because is speaks of the virtue of humility. They say that humility is the foundation of all other virtues.

People confuse humility with humiliation. Humiliation is loss of dignity. Humility however, is knowing your proper place - in the family, in the workplace, in society, in the Church and in the order of creation; your proper place in relation to God and creation. Those who are not police should not try to enforce the law on their own but should call the police and let them do their job. Those who are not pastors should not try to pastor others. The computer guy should not second guess the CEO on matters of corporate strategy and the CEO should not try to run the computer network.

Not worrying about things we are not in control of is very liberating because it allows us to focus on the things God has allowed us to be in control of.

His master said to him, `Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.’ (Matthew 25:21)

This is the story of King David. He was tending the sheep in the middle of the night while his brothers were in the tent with Samuel yelling, “Pick me! Pick me!” David was called to be King and his brothers were passed over.

We are required to speak out, required to act when we see injustice, and it is not wrong to point out a problem to someone who is in the position to fix that problem but anything else is complaining. In the case of the OP’s concern about liturgical gestures and postures, the virtue of humility leads us to discreetly speak to the pastor and then re-focus on what we are in control of.

As OraLabora said, at the end of the day we are in control only of ourselves.

-Tim-

 

[blaskoman]

Good point Tim, maybe this is an issue only the diocene bishop can tackle. I know that various parishes within the same diocese perform gestures/postures differently during mass. There is no uniformity

 

[ProVobis]

As for not bowing in the Creed, I have my own theory as to why many many many people don’t do it:

Old-timers are probably still wondering if they are required to bow to the name “Jesus” in the Creed or anywhere else.

 

[illinidiva]

Good point Tim, maybe this is an issue only the diocene bishop can tackle. I know that various parishes within the same diocese perform gestures/postures differently during mass. There is no uniformity

I don’t think that OraLabora was going after that. I think that what was said is to drop it in total. I think that this is Pope Francis’ “pox on both your houses.” Both the left and the right are really arguing about the minutia of the club. We are not being open to the world. We are concerned about the “rules” for membership and the “rules” of the ritual.

Really, just drop it. The Protestants have it right on this one. Becoming obsessed with form is not the way to meet God. You think that a God of divine mercy, who as our Pope said made someone who denied him in his hour of need, the leader of the Catholic Church, is worried about form. Of course, the best way to meet God is in the Mass. However, even at Mass, that doesn’t happen. People are distracted by their lives sometimes. I betcha priests are distracted by their lives. Rather than worrying about the actions of others (unless they are really distracting you), then just accept it as part of life and move on.

 

[blaskoman]

You are entitled to your opinion. I respectfully disagree. Maybe its the German roots in me that point toward some type of adherence to a standard set of norms. I respect the solemnity of the Mass and observe that many take it way too lightly. Where is the solemnity when the laity burst into applause three times during mass? – just another weekly occurance at mass

 

[maltmom]

Old-timers are probably still wondering if they are required to bow to the name “Jesus” in the Creed or anywhere else.

I can tell you that converts can be just as confused. I’ve been Catholic about a year and a half. It wasn’t until I starting attending Mass at my church that I learned a number of new things. I didn’t know about striking my breast during the Confiteor. Why? Because we didn’t say it at my old church. I didn’t know about bowing during the Creed. Why? Because I read it from the TV screen and it didn’t tell me to do so. Bowing my head at the name of Jesus…I just learned about doing so about a month ago.

Now I do all three naturally without thinking about them.

 

[Rhubarb]

I’ve been to Mass several times with my girlfriend and I don’t perform any gestures because I don’t know what is to be done when, and I feel it is disingenuous to go through motions without belief. I sit/stand with the congregation, but otherwise sit quietly and politely as I assume a guest ought to.

 

[illinidiva]

You are entitled to your opinion. I respectfully disagree. Maybe its the German roots in me that point toward some type of adherence to a standard set of norms. I respect the solemnity of the Mass and observe that many take it way too lightly. Where is the solemnity when the laity burst into applause three times during mass? – just another weekly occurance at mass

If it is affecting your ability to concentrate on the Mass, then go ahead and complain. However, people might just want to appreciate the efforts of the musician performing a special song, applaud when it is someone’s anniversary or milestone (a baby being baptized), or even support the priest when he says something profound during his sermon. Rather than complaining about it, I’d hope that you’d understand it from that perspective. People are as was said messy… They have crabby toddlers that get upset and cranky teens. Sometimes they get up too late and rush to Mass. They might be cranky because of a fight with their spouse or an ill parent or a bad situation at work. They might be extra joyful because of a wonderful situation. These things don’t get checked at the doors. Apparently, there are people (one more famous conservative blog encourages readers to do this) who enjoy acting as liturgical police and writing the archbishop and even Rome about priests violating the rubrics. If you have the time and energy to do this or focus on others’ gestures (or lack there of) during the Mass, perhaps you should direct your efforts to real problems.

One of the best Masses that I’ve attended was one in Spanish at a Mexican immigrant church. Since it was the Latino culture (start time is “suggested”) and many people took the bus, people were arriving late. There were lots of fidgety and crabby toddlers that parents were trying to control. They clapped during the hymns. But they also really wanted to be there and wanted to worship God in contrast with my own parish where people seem to just go through the motions.

 

[Lasting_faith]

Maybe we should think about this also, what is more important for God, that we attend Mass or do everything “right”?

 

[Usige]

I could get it if babies were crying or people were talking on cellphones but this really prevents one from worshipping?

Actually given that I have 5 children crying babies doesn’t bother me in the least. It’s not about if it’s distracting, my question is **why **people aren’t doing it?

Liturgical actions aren’t there just at the whim of the bishops. Each and every action is there for a specific reason. Studies have shown the humans link kinesiological movements to memories/feelings. For instance striking one’s breast during the confiteor helps to internalize the grief we should feel that Christ was nailed to a cross “through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault”. Beating or clutching the chest has long been a human expression of grief and anguish. If people fully connect with what the confiteor means to express they shouldn’t merely beat their chest, but fall down weeping. The action should help to focus the mind on what we are saying. The same thing when we bow (or kneel on Christmas and the Feast of the Annunciation) at the incarnation during the creed to acknowledge one of the central mysteries of our faith.

So back to the question of why. There can only be four core reasons I can think of:

1. 
   *]People don’t know what they are supposed to do.
   *]People know, but don’t understand why so choose not to do it.
   *]People know, but don’t think it’s important or that it’s silly.
   *]People know and understand, but reject the underlying truth the action conveys.
   
   The first 2 reasons are matters of catechisis. I suspect (and hope) that is the reason for the majority that don’t perform these actions.
   
   The third speaks to a more troubling trend. Specifically it reflects the attitude that we can (and perhaps should) reduce the liturgy to the bare minimum. It often underlies comments like “at least they showed up” or “the Eucharist is all that matters”. The Mass is so much more then just showing up to receive the graces from the Eucharist.
   
   And to the fourth reason, I certainly hope that’s not the case. But when the second and third reasons start to commingle it is not inconceivable how people can move from lack or understanding to outright rejection of what the actions convey.
   
   Given the above I am not concerned about distractions or being the liturgical police, but rather concerned if people aren’t learning the truth of the faith and internalizing those truths.

 

[Country_Gal]

Reading this thread discourages me from ever returning to the Church. It’s so terrible to be scrutinized by others, I don’t think I could take it.

 

[illinidiva]

Yep… this strict adherence to rubrics is ridiculous. People may act differently and contemplate faith differently. There are many ways to contemplate God. (I personally think His favorite is our kindness toward each other.). People are messy and He gets that. God didn’t set up the rules; the Church, a human run organization did.

If this is your top worry, then perhaps there are others thing you can focus on. Praying for Christians in the Middle East instead?

 

[Lasting_faith]

Reading this thread discourages me from ever returning to the Church. It’s so terrible to be scrutinized by others, I don’t think I could take it.

Hey “Country Gal”, don’t give up to soon. Really, there are more people following the Mass-order then those who look what others do, or rather, not do. It is between God and you. He, and I have a strange feeling being right, does not mind. If you love Christ, you can do cartwheel on the aisle, He will see you, yes, and He will be happy to see that you attend Mass. I have a few good words but they are not suitable for this Forum, but to make it short and sweet, you go to Mass because you want to. What others do is not your problem. Let them be nosy, don’t give up. Can’t you see it. Just those who want so desperately to be right all the way keep others away from God. So you forget to do some certain things, what counts is that you are in The Church, and you are there because you want to. What others say or do is worth nothing. I will pray for you, and I want you to pray for me next Sunday, in your local Church. Do we have a deal?

 

[Usige]

If this is your top worry, then perhaps there are other things you can focus on. Praying for Christians in the Middle East instead?

Well that’s a fallacious argument if I’ve ever seen one. Who here has said this is their top concern?

I get that some people don’t give a rip for the liturgy or are hostile to tradition, but its a stretch to say if I care about the poor and distain tradition then the opposite is true and therefore anyone who cares about tradition must distain the poor. Pope Benedict loved the liturgy and commented on it so do you think he didn’t pray for all sorts of other issues?

 

[Genesis315]

Here’s one almost no one does:

From the General Instruction for the Roman Missal (GIRM):

1. a) A bow of the head is made when the three Divine Persons are named together and at the names of Jesus, of the Blessed Virgin Mary, and of the Saint in whose honor Mass is being celebrated.

Ironically, this is done often in the extraordinary form where it is not required, but alost never in the ordinary form where it is required. As an aside, I don’t think the EF (and therefore Mass before the 1960s) even had rubrics for the laity–their gensture developed from custom.

 

[illinidiva]

I think Benedict overemphasized the liturgy and it made him less effective on other issues.

 

[Usige]

I think Benedict overemphasized the liturgy and it made him less effective on other issues.

Even if you don’t like him he is still due the respect of the papacy and should be refered to as Pope or His Holiness.

You’ve convinced me. You are right and know much better than the bishops and clergy how to handle the faith. Let’s just dump the rubrics of the Mass because they don’t matter.