Observations by a non believer

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My reply on hell.

"Hi Jack

No, I wanted you to reply into my more in-depth reply, where I answer all three of your questions.

The primary torture of hell is separation from God. We do teach that the damned are punished by eternal torment. The torment is in proportion to the crimes of which the person is unrepentant. In terms of degree, the punishments is directly proportional, so it is just. The duration is just, since those who never decide to repent should never cease to be punished.

But no, please reply to my other post. "
 
You say that the “real presence is the body, soul and divinity” of Christ and it exists in each and every Eucharistic exchange. Your example of how something (psychological continuity) can pass and yet remain substantially unchanged is my sense of self (ie WmJ is WmJ at various ages and times although the atoms in his body are in a state of constant change).

I can see how you can make a case for “soul and divinity” passing through the billions and billions of waffer hosts over the ages, because, “psychological being” or "self"could certainly be a version of, or, at least, the same kind or quality of amorphous substance as “soul and/or divinity”-----at least, you could argue the point without being contradicted by any facts known at the present time. In other words, there is no evidence to dispute it, So, as to "soul and divinity, the proposition is logically coherent and doesn’t contradict itself. Please understand I don’t accept the proposition as true as there is no evidence to support it; but, I will agree, you can make a case, in the abstract, that the "soull and divinty of Christ passes.

The problem, then which presents an inherent conflict is the proposition that the corporal aspects of Christ (ie “the body and blood” ) also transmits across time and space. As long as body and blood are comprised of atoms, I think your argument, based upon psychological continuity, fails.

I hope we continue to be friends.
Hey Jack.

First off, soul and divinity are not just psychological things. They are part of the substance. Now, nobody here is denying the Eucharist is made of atoms. However, its substance is not identified with its atoms, just as your substance is not identified with your atoms (which I argued earlier). However, the atoms are not part of a piece of bread, but are a piece of the Body of Christ.

Let’s take this as a good example. Let’s use you and bread. You eat bread, which we’ll say for simplicity is composed of C atoms. Before you eat it, the matter composes bread. Once you eat the bread, the matter (still C atoms) composes your body, and is no longer bread. Notice something though. The atomic structure is still the same. Before you eat the bread, it is C atoms. After it becomes your body, it is still C atoms and quite frankly looks no different than before. But it undergoes a natural substantial change. It is no longer bread, it is your body. Likewise, we say that by by a supernatural substantial change, the bread after consecration is no longer bread, but the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

I hope I was clear. Take care.
 
As for no evidence, aside from Divine Revelation and thousands of other empirically-verifiable miracles of the Church, here are some related specifically to the Eucharist. While they do not make sense from a naturalistic and materialistic understanding of the universe, they are empirically verifiable if you do not have said naturalistic bias. The one from Lanciano has had quite a bit of testing done on it.

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/siena.html
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/blanot.html
piercedhearts.org/treasures/eucharistic_miracles/santarem.htm
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
catholicdoors.com/misc/eucharisticmiracles.htm

All the best.
 
Here is my reply to your original questions.

"Hi WmJackP.
  1. Well, the existence of a loving God is completely rational (although sometimes so rational that it is hard to understand). I will not go into God’s existence, because that is a whole other question. If you don’t believe God exists feel free to e-mail me, and I will prove it (with Saint Thomas’ proofs), and also draw the consequential attributes from the conclusions. Anyways, this is directly from Saint Thomas.
“God loves all existing things. For all existing things, in so far as they exist, are good, since the existence of a thing is itself a good; and likewise, whatever perfection it possesses. God’s will is the cause of all things. It must needs be, therefore, that a thing has existence, or any kind of good, only inasmuch as it is willed by God. To every existing thing, then, God wills some good. Hence, since to love anything is nothing else than to will good to that thing, it is manifest that God loves everything that exists.”

That God exists and loves infinitely can be proven by reason. However, you criticize faith, saying that it must be experiential. But this is the distinction we make between intellectual assent (better called, dead faith, which even the demons know) and a living faith. A living faith involves not only believing in God and His love, but also living it out as part of yourself. It involves making God’s love part of your behavior, attitude, and generally your entire life. It involves recognizing it not only intellectually, but to the fullest extent of your being.
  1. Again, this is highly rational, much more than you may think. Of course, the acceptance of the doctrine starts with faith, but afterwards it can be explained in a rational manner. We believe, by a divine miracle, that the bread and wine is substantially changed (ie, transubstantiation). The key word here is ‘substantially’. A thing may retain what is called “accidents”, that is, properties that are not key to a things essential nature. Behind accidents remains the absolute substance, which is an individual of a certain nature. We believe our senses deceive us as to the actual nature of the thing, because senses can only receive accidental information of a given thing. All this of course only makes sense for a person who has the faith to believe such things. To increase your faith, look up “Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano” in wikipedia. To understand substance theory, look up “Substance theory” in wikipedia.
  2. To the third point, you have a grace misunderstanding of salvation. We believe we are justified by God’s grace, not of ourselves. “For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; Not of works, that no man may glory.” We are saved only by God’s grace, and not by our own merits. The same thing is proven by reason. No matter how good you are on a natural level, you cannot merit supernatural rewards. A basic metaphysical principle states that an effect cannot exceed its cause. A supernatural, infinite, and eternal effect (that is, eternal happiness), exceeds the cause of a natural, finite, and temporal cause (we are all these things). Therefore, we need God’s help if we are to have any eternal gift or reward. This is proven by reason.
I hope this answers somewhat. Pray, especially the rosary. God bless. "
That is quite a lot to respond to, and, now I remember seeing it. There is no practical way I can systemically deal with what you present on limited time . I can give you some over all reactions of mine, however:
  1. The proofs of Thomas are more or less cause/effect related. OK. So the end product is that there is something first and foremost. I can live with that possibility, although there are people who might disagree or, at least, say it is possible that when you get to “the beginning” there is instead of an abrupt “start” merely the contination of being. Something like going to the noth pole and then curving around on itself itself except in the case of the early universe all dimensions and perhaps as many as 11 dimensions were all curled up in itself.
  2. Even if there is something first and foremost, isn’t it simpler and easier to say (Occham’s razor principle) that that thing which is first and foremost is order or an impersonal set of principles. Mathematics is not a guy or a gal. There is mathematics. It makes sense, and, if I make an error in addition, it doesn’t turn me into a pillar of salt nor does it institute a church to keep me straight on my math skills.
So I can easily live with the thought–indeed, the belief–that the cosmos is rational. And that is a mystry to marvel at. If you remember other posts of mine, you will recall me saying that while it is an awesome concept–it cannot be influenced by my prayers, nor can I expect to enhance it by worship nor propitiate it by my obedience. The cosmos is—and–in my personal view (very much like Bruno) I am entirely content to be part of it.
  1. Those who follow religious doctrines, however, seem to want to make a person out of Thomas’ prime mover—and give it attributes and even a personality. I, however, (employing O’s razor again) more simply call it “the rational” and do not expect that it will be offended if I fail to sacrafice a goat or sheep to it.
Finally, I feel compelled to remind you that I really do not wish to offend you nor anyone else. I expect only that I am treated with the same respect and courtesy as I try to extend to others. I realize that many feel very strongly about their faiths, and, while I am mindful of that, I also have to be ably to freely express myself–I hope without incurring anyone’s wrath—if I am to continue discussing these topics with you who believe differently than I.
 
Hey Jack.
You only really replied to part 1 of my post. That is absolutely fine. We should talk about part 2 from where we’re at, since we’ve come a long ways in our discussion of transubstantiation and it would be bad for us to go all the way back to the beginning. Much better if you reply to my more recent post on transubstantiation (post #62). As for part 3, you can get to that later.

I understand you’re not trying to be offensive. Keep in mind neither am I. I read your post, and to be honest there’s not much to say other than that you’ve misunderstood both Saint Thomas’ proofs and Ockham’s razor. First, Saint Thomas does argue from causality, but it is a little more in depth than that. It would take much longer than I’d like to go through it, so maybe when you have free time or are at home, read the treatise about “The One God” in the First Part of St. Thomas’ Summa. If you really want me to go in depth, I’ll do so in a PM or e-mail. That God has certain attributes is a necessary logical consequence of the proofs of Saint Thomas. These attributes are the ones we usually ascribe to God. Thus he always says “and all people call this God”. Of course this may seem like a blank assertion at first, but he later draws the attributes in the following pages.

Now, Ockham’s razor does not mean that once we’ve come to a conclusion, we must ignore the necessary and logical consequences. Ockham was actually extremely important in the development of logic in Western philosophy, and I don’t think he’d be too happy if we twisted his theory that way. I’d like to remind you that Ockham was a Franciscan friar who believed in the same Christian God as Saint Thomas.

With all that said, maybe we can go somewhere with the little that you do concede, and I won’t have to go and explain the whole shebang of the Quinque Viae. You do concede something first and foremost, yes? Do you concede that this thing has will? If yes, then Saint Thomas’ proof shows God’s love. If not, then how can a will (humans have a will) come from something with no will? How can an effect be greater than its cause (since God is ultimately the first cause of all that is)? This would establish that God has a will, and ultimately that God loves all that is, as is seen from the paragraph I took from Saint Thomas.
 
Let’s take this as a good example. Let’s use you and bread. You eat bread, which we’ll say for simplicity is composed of C atoms. Before you eat it, the matter composes bread. Once you eat the bread, the matter (still C atoms) composes your body, and is no longer bread. Notice something though. The atomic structure is still the same. Before you eat the bread, it is C atoms. After it becomes your body, it is still C atoms and quite frankly looks no different than before. But it undergoes a natural substantial change. It is no longer bread, it is your body. Likewise, we say that by by a supernatural substantial change, the bread after consecration is no longer bread, but the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

I hope I was clear. Take care.
Not wishing to get into a huge debate here, but I don’t think this is a good analogy at all. What you are comparing here is a purely natural biochemical transformation for which there is ample evidence with a supposedly miraculous transformation for which there is no evidence. But even allowing, for the sake of argument, the possibility of some sort of miraculous transformation via a process that lies forever beyond the scope of scientific investigation, the analogy is not a good one.

In the case of eating bread, the proteins in the bread do not become part of a person who consumes them until they are digested and incorporated into the human body - until that point they are bread protein that happens to be passing through the human digestive tract. Once they are broken down into their constituent amino acids and reprocessed by human DNA translation into protein they are demonstrably human protein - any competent lab could tell the difference between, say, wheat protein and human protein. The substantial and essential change of the material from bread to human is accompanied by a physical change - bread is not the same as human tissue. You are wrong to say that it looks the same - it does not.

That, of course, is not the case with the Eucharist, which demonstrably remains bread and not any other form of matter, and so I, and others are rationally justified in claiming that it is just bread and nothing else. To claim otherwise seems to me to do violence to the fundamental concept of essences or classes of thing, and to violate the separable and identical properties of the Host.

As for what makes an individual the same individual throughout his or her life, I fail to see how that is relevant to the case. What makes someone themselves is their sense of self and their memories, both of which are part of the logical layer of the brain which is encoded in the physical layer - and in any case at the physical level, there is good evidence that there is no turnover of cells in the cerebral cortex. So the substance of an individual is defined physically (which is supported by the fact that individuality cannot survive the demise of the supporting physical domain). Even if this were not so, you are not justified in claiming the converse - that a substantial change can take place with no physical change.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Hello Alec.

All compounds (such as proteins) can be broken down into an even further material division, to the point of elements. These elements make up everything in the universe. However, the elements are part of a substance. While the compounds of bread may be broken down by the human body, the elements that made up the bread do not undergo any change in themselves. They are exactly the same as before. However, they are no longer bread matter, but human matter. Likewise, if I drink some water out of my spigot, the H2O is no longer just some faucet water, but becomes part of the human body.

As for people, on the contrary, it is the substance that makes an individual the same throughout their life. While memory is a test for personal identity, it does not give us the nature of such identity. Memories presuppose personal identity. So they cannot constitute personal identity. What makes me the same person as 40 years ago can’t be that I have that person’s memories. It’s that I am that person.

Consider this situation, which is by no means logically or metaphysically impossible. Suppose by some cruel trick God makes *me *wake up tomorrow morning with your memories and your body, and vice versa. In short, the same person could have a different body and different memories. If this is possible, this shows that sameness of memory and physical body is not a necessary condition for personal identity.
 
Not wishing to get into a huge debate here, but I don’t think this is a good analogy at all. What you are comparing here is a purely natural biochemical transformation for which there is ample evidence with a supposedly miraculous transformation for which there is no evidence. But even allowing, for the sake of argument, the possibility of some sort of miraculous transformation via a process that lies forever beyond the scope of scientific investigation, the analogy is not a good one.

In the case of eating bread, the proteins in the bread do not become part of a person who consumes them until they are digested and incorporated into the human body - until that point they are bread protein that happens to be passing through the human digestive tract. Once they are broken down into their constituent amino acids and reprocessed by human DNA translation into protein they are demonstrably human protein - any competent lab could tell the difference between, say, wheat protein and human protein. The substantial and essential change of the material from bread to human is accompanied by a physical change - bread is not the same as human tissue. You are wrong to say that it looks the same - it does not.
Welcome back, Alec,

Good to see you. Unfortunately my memory for precise terminology is still rotten, so please continue to correct me.🙂

I agree with you about the analogy. Let’s skip the substance of the individual bit and get right to the basics of the Catholic Eucharist, in my humble opinion.
That, of course, is not the case with the Eucharist, which demonstrably remains bread and not any other form of matter, and so I, and others are rationally justified in claiming that it is just bread and nothing else.
Correct terminology, please. From the above, you would be speaking from a materialistic foundation that reality is physical/material. To me, this is a natural science view which analyses what can be put under the proverbial microscope. Actually, we all count on a physical/material universe since that makes it easier for us to move about and accomplish great things like antibiotics and bouncing around in outer space.

What I am suggesting is that in addition to the material within our universe, there is also the non-material or spiritual as completely different from matter. It is not my intention to make the leap from the non-material to a supernatural God. I believe that it is possible to stop at the concept of the non-material and let the philosophers take over.

The sense of the non-material or spiritual has existed in human history since verbal myths were handed down from generation to generation. From day one, people understood the difference between a live cow and a dead one and acted accordingly. The pyramids attested to the idea that life existed beyond the dead body. The Hebrew Scriptures made the spiritual relevant to human existence.

All the science experiments possible cannot completely rule out the non-material or spiritual. The scientist will always see beauty in surroundings, poetry, music and especially in the love of another person. It does not really matter if one equates the appreciation of an alley cat concert with firing of brain cells or whatever. Appreciation is still a non-material that does not show up with an MRI. Would the technician exclaim – Good grief! This patient has an appreciation of alley cats instead of opera. We need a scalpel in a hurry.

My point is that the non-material or spiritual which does surround us is taken for granted. It is part of our daily lives. So it should be no surprise when the non-material is included in Catholicism. Why not?

When one looks at the consecrated Host, one accepts that both material and non-material are present. Praise God!
To claim otherwise seems to me to do violence to the fundamental concept of essences or classes of thing, and to violate the separable and identical properties of the Host.
I do admit that my theology course and nap time coincided. As for my two favorite courses, logic and metaphysics, my memory needs a whole lot of prodding. Thus, I am not sure what is meant by the separable and identical properties of the Host.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect.
 
That, of course, is not the case with the Eucharist, which demonstrably remains bread and not any other form of matter, and so I, and others are rationally justified in claiming that it is just bread and nothing else. To claim otherwise seems to me to do violence to the fundamental concept of essences or classes of thing, and to violate the separable and identical properties of the Host.
The particulars of a specific quiddity nessecarily are predicated by the genus to which that quiddity inhabits; as we all pronounce in the creed that Christ was eternally begotten, and was incarnate and became man - we can see that he had some distinct quiddity that was outside of the material genus (no one would sensibly contend that his quiddity was another material). Therein, his quiddity is essentially compatible with that of the material genus, as evidently he becomes manifest in the material genus of man, but is not so by nature. Therein materials are posterior and accidental to his quiddity and essentially the haecceical substance of a particular material (bread/wine) are predicated priorially by that which comes prior to to the (accidental) materials, that is the substance of Christ. The law of noncontradiction does not apply, because although no contrary can exist formally or conceptually in toto, the accidental status of the posterior quiddity of material elements does not contradict it’s prior; Christlike substance.

👍
 
Jack,

*All of that wisdom was stoled from the world because of—heresy? *

Exactly all of what wisdom are you referencing? I’m not aware that Bruno was the soul of wisdom. Please enlighten me with two or three great insights of wisdom he possessed that were stolen from the world by his execution.

Thanks. 😉
 
All compounds (such as proteins) can be broken down into an even further material division, to the point of elements. These elements make up everything in the universe. However, the elements are part of a substance. While the compounds of bread may be broken down by the human body, the elements that made up the bread do not undergo any change in themselves. They are exactly the same as before. However, they are no longer bread matter, but human matter. Likewise, if I drink some water out of my spigot, the H2O is no longer just some faucet water, but becomes part of the human body.
You’ve missed my point. It’s a trivial truism that the same atoms can be part of different substances at different times. That is not in question. All ordinary matter in the universe is made up of the same limited set of 92 naturally occurring elements (just as a technical aside, and to be absolutely correct, these elements do not “make up everything in the universe”, because they do not include elementary bosons - photons, W and Z bosons, and so on, nor do they fundamentally include leptons, nor do they include any baryons that are composed of other than purely up and down quarks or more than three quarks - such as hyperons, nor do they include mesons, nor do they include whatever constitutes dark matter: There is a lot of stuff in the universe other than matter composed of what you call elements.) Returning to the case in point, not only is all ordinary matter made up of the 92 different elements but identical atoms can be part of different substances at different times. That is not at all controversial. What is in question is whether an entity can change its substance without any perceptible physical change and the evidence is that it cannot. Take the very example that you used of water - it is made up of two hydrogen and one oxygen atoms, but the substance of water is not a simple blend of the substances of hydrogen and oxygen. Irt is something entirely different. Molecular hydrogen and biatomic molecular oxygen have entirely different substantial properties from water and from one another, as does triatomic oxygen (ozone) and H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide). This simple case shows that the substantial (and essential) properties of entities are linked semantically to their molecular structure (and emergent properties of matter) rather than to their constituent atoms. Contrary to what you say, the important constituents of bread, and that which makes bread bread rather than an elephant or a dolphin or an oak are molecular rather than atomic, and these do undergo fundamental change on being incorporated into humans. Its molecular structure changes from that of a cereal (processed in a particular way that also is needed to justify the token, bread) to that of a human and the change is sensible and profound. Where can you give an example of an entity which changes its substance without any sensible change - in philosophy, in science and in common semantics, an entity which does not change sensibly from one point in time to another remains substantially the same.
As for people, on the contrary, it is the substance that makes an individual the same throughout their life. While memory is a test for personal identity, it does not give us the nature of such identity. Memories presuppose personal identity. So they cannot constitute personal identity. What makes me the same person as 40 years ago can’t be that I have that person’s memories. It’s that I am that person.
There are many question begging fallacies in the above - To say that what makes you the same person as 40 years ago is that you are that person is tautological. Memories no more presuppose personal identity than bunions do - they are both physical phenomena, and without memory no personal identity could exist. The organism that we refer to as Bob is associated exclusively with the continuous (never discontinuous) physical organism, and the personhood of Bob is encoded in the memories and sense-of-self grounded in the brain of Bob the organism (and never in any other organism’s brain, or stomach or bunions).
Consider this situation, which is by no means logically or metaphysically impossible. Suppose by some cruel trick God makes *me *wake up tomorrow morning with your memories and your body, and vice versa. In short, the same person could have a different body and different memories. If this is possible, this shows that sameness of memory and physical body is not a necessary condition for personal identity.
On the contrary, it is deeply logically and metaphysically impossible (not to mention biologically impossible) because the substance of human beings is associated exclusively with a single body that is the ground for that person. To say that Bob can remain Bob while inhabiting Alice’s body and having exclusively Alice’s memories (and character and fears and hopes and preferences and opinions - all of which necessarily go with Alice, the body) is to do as much logical and semantic and philosophical violence to the concept of substance, as the claim that the consecrated Host is someone’s total substance, body, blood and soul, does to the concepts of both substance and essence.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
You’ve missed my point. It’s a trivial truism that the same atoms can be part of different substances at different times. That is not in question. All ordinary matter in the universe is made up of the same limited set of 92 naturally occurring elements (just as a technical aside, and to be absolutely correct, these elements do not “make up everything in the universe”, because they do not include elementary bosons - photons, W and Z bosons, and so on, nor do they fundamentally include leptons, nor do they include any baryons that are composed of other than purely up and down quarks or more than three quarks - such as hyperons, nor do they include mesons, nor do they include whatever constitutes dark matter: There is a lot of stuff in the universe other than matter composed of what you call elements.) Returning to the case in point, not only is all ordinary matter made up of the 92 different elements but identical atoms can be part of different substances at different times. That is not at all controversial. What is in question is whether an entity can change its substance without any perceptible physical change and the evidence is that it cannot. Take the very example that you used of water - it is made up of two hydrogen and one oxygen atoms, but the substance of water is not a simple blend of the substances of hydrogen and oxygen. Irt is something entirely different. Molecular hydrogen and biatomic molecular oxygen have entirely different substantial properties from water and from one another, as does triatomic oxygen (ozone) and H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide). This simple case shows that the substantial (and essential) properties of entities are linked semantically to their molecular structure (and emergent properties of matter) rather than to their constituent atoms. Contrary to what you say, the important constituents of bread, and that which makes bread bread rather than an elephant or a dolphin or an oak are molecular rather than atomic, and these do undergo fundamental change on being incorporated into humans. Its molecular structure changes from that of a cereal (processed in a particular way that also is needed to justify the token, bread) to that of a human and the change is sensible and profound. Where can you give an example of an entity which changes its substance without any sensible change - in philosophy, in science and in common semantics, an entity which does not change sensibly from one point in time to another remains substantially the same.
There are many question begging fallacies in the above - To say that what makes you the same person as 40 years ago is that you are that person is tautological. Memories no more presuppose personal identity than bunions do - they are both physical phenomena, and without memory no personal identity could exist. The organism that we refer to as Bob is associated exclusively with the continuous (never discontinuous) physical organism, and the personhood of Bob is encoded in the memories and sense-of-self grounded in the brain of Bob the organism (and never in any other organism’s brain, or stomach or bunions).

On the contrary, it is deeply logically and metaphysically impossible (not to mention biologically impossible) because the substance of human beings is associated exclusively with a single body that is the ground for that person. To say that Bob can remain Bob while inhabiting Alice’s body and having exclusively Alice’s memories (and character and fears and hopes and preferences and opinions - all of which necessarily go with Alice, the body) is to do as much logical and semantic and philosophical violence to the concept of substance, as the claim that the consecrated Host is someone’s total substance, body, blood and soul, does to the concepts of both substance and essence.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Welcome back, Alec,
Thank you.
What I am suggesting is that in addition to the material within our universe, there is also the non-material or spiritual as completely different from matter. It is not my intention to make the leap from the non-material to a supernatural God. I believe that it is possible to stop at the concept of the non-material and let the philosophers take over.
Well, we two have discussed the question of the existence of non-material realm in some detail, and we don’t necessarily agree on it, but actually I don’t think that the matter here depends crucially on that (dis)agreement. The Catholic claim is that the consecrated Host is substantially the body of Christ, materially and (if you like) spiritually. The material aspect was drummed into me as a child - that the Eucharist should be believed to be materially the body of Christ. The point I am making is that the substance of entities do not change insensibly (without violating the separability and identity of substances) - the idea does violence to the philosophical concept of substance as well as to semantics and logic.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
The particulars of a specific quiddity nessecarily are predicated by the genus to which that quiddity inhabits; as we all pronounce in the creed that Christ was eternally begotten, and was incarnate and became man - we can see that he had some distinct quiddity that was outside of the material genus (no one would sensibly contend that his quiddity was another material). Therein, his quiddity is essentially compatible with that of the material genus, as evidently he becomes manifest in the material genus of man, but is not so by nature. Therein materials are posterior and accidental to his quiddity and essentially the haecceical substance of a particular material (bread/wine) are predicated priorially by that which comes prior to to the (accidental) materials, that is the substance of Christ. The law of noncontradiction does not apply, because although no contrary can exist formally or conceptually in toto, the accidental status of the posterior quiddity of material elements does not contradict it’s prior; Christlike substance.
For those who find it difficult to follow what you are saying (see Peter Medawar on the French post-modernists), a translation: Christ has a substance that is not fundamentally material because He is divine but it is possible to be manifest materially; in becoming man His substance is manifested materially and but that is not part of His essential nature. Thus bread and wine can be substantially Christ without affecting the material accidental properties of the bread or wine. Normal laws of logic do not apply, because His divine substance can be present in matter having any accidental properties whatever, as it was in His body.

And I say that this is no defence against the proposition that entities do not change their substance in an insensible way. It is no more than special pleading, to make acceptable that which lacks sense and logic. It depends on highly contentious propositions (for example that there are entities, indeed agents, that are prior to matter). Your argument, when stripped of its quids and its hics is that God is God and can do whatever miracle he wants.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
%between%
 
Thank you.

Well, we two have discussed the question of the existence of non-material realm in some detail, and we don’t necessarily agree on it, but actually I don’t think that the matter here depends crucially on that (dis)agreement. The Catholic claim is that the consecrated Host is substantially the body of Christ, materially and (if you like) spiritually. The material aspect was drummed into me as a child - that the Eucharist should be believed to be materially the body of Christ. The point I am making is that the substance of entities do not change insensibly (without violating the separability and identity of substances) - the idea does violence to the philosophical concept of substance as well as to semantics and logic.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
I am sure that the word materially, in the scientific sense, is wrong. Not only have I not come across the word materially per se, but it does not sound logical according to one difficult explanation of the Eucharistic Miracle at Lanciano, Italy. However, I have a friend in St. Louis who probably had the same educational experience as you did.

If you will give me your meaning of separability and identity of substances(violate the separable and identical properties of the Host in post 67), I may be able to reconcile the language difficulties. I will still respect your disbelief, but at least there will be a better understanding of transubstantiation.

FYI. I accepted the Eucharist on faith until one night, I walked out of a metaphysics course and nearly screamed out loud because I just learned the basic reasoning for transubstantiation. Even so, I still struggle with doubts. For some of us, the Catholic Eucharist will always be difficult. On the other hand, I will not give up my 2:00 AM hour of Eucharistic Adoration because the Real Presence is real.

Looking forward to learning substances, separability and identity, from your perspective.

granny

John Chapter Six
 
For those who find it difficult to follow what you are saying (see Peter Medawar on the French post-modernists), a translation: Christ has a substance that is not fundamentally material because He is divine but it is possible to be manifest materially; in becoming man His substance is manifested materially and but that is not part of His essential nature. Thus bread and wine can be substantially Christ without affecting the material accidental properties of the bread or wine. Normal laws of logic do not apply, because His divine substance can be present in matter having any accidental properties whatever, as it was in His body.

And I say that this is no defence against the proposition that entities do not change their substance in an insensible way. It is no more than special pleading, to make acceptable that which lacks sense and logic. It depends on highly contentious propositions (for example that there are entities, indeed agents, that are prior to matter). Your argument, when stripped of its quids and its hics is that God is God and can do whatever miracle he wants.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
I am having a language problem. Substance can be defined as having mass and occupies space; matter and also as essential nature; essence.
Substantial, substantially can be defined as having substance; material and also as true or real; not imaginary.(The American Heritage College Dictionary)

Maybe that is why I can agree and disagree with your post above. :confused:
Maybe we should explore hylomorphism.

Blessings,
granny

Human nature is sacred.
 
Hecd2
Your argument….God is God and can do whatever miracle he wants.
Exactly. How strange to feel that the Creator God would be unable to be present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharistic Species after He showed us His Divinity by His Resurrection testified to by eyewitnesses.

Perhaps you haven’t heard of real miracles. But you didn’t have to be a Catholic to experience this one:
Eyewitnesses in the modern era saw, and it is historically recorded, the miracle of the sun at Fatima:
As Avelino deAlmeida, the chief editor of O Seculo, the large “liberal” anticlerical and masonic daily of Lisbon, writes:

“Before the dazzled eyes of the people, whose attitude transported us to biblical times, and who, dumb-founded, heads uncovered, contemplated the blue of the sky, the sun trembled, it mad estrange and abrupt movements, outside of all cosmic laws, ‘the sun danced’, according to the typical expression of the peasants…(2)"

Attacked violently by all the anticlerical press, Avelino de Almeida renewed his testimony, fifteen days later, in his review, l “Ilustra‡ao Portuguesa”. This time he illustrated his account with a dozen photographs of the huge ecstatic crowd, and repeated as a refrain throughout his article: “I saw…I saw…I saw.” And he concluded fortuitously: "Miracle, as the people shouted? Natural phenomenon, as the experts say? For the moment, that does not concern me, I am only saying what I saw… The rest is a matter for Science and the Church.” (3)
Note:
2) O Seculo of October 15, 1917.
3) Article of October 29, 1917

An Eyewitness Account by Dr. José Maria de Almeida Garrett, professor at the Faculty of Sciences of Coimbra, Portugal, is at fatima.org/essentials/facts/miracle.asp
 
“Let us ask Jesus in the Eucharist to be with us always in this mystery of immense love; let us ask this of Mary, our sweet Mother to whom we solemnly renew the consecration of the entire Peruvian People. With these sentiments I offer my heartfelt greetings to you all.” OFFICIAL VISIT OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE TO PERU, CLOSING OF THE NATIONAL EUCHARISTIC CONGRESS OF PERU, HOMILY OF CARDINAL TARCISIO BERTONE, Cathedral of Chimbote, Thursday, 30 August 2007.

The mystery of immense love is far better than making promises you can’t keep, multitasking while responding to a complaint, underestimating the time and effort it takes to get from point A to point B, assuming that they (children and coworkers) see the world essentially the same way you or I do, and thinking your life is your own. Think about all the mysteries that still exist and don’t forget to include ‘the mystery of immense love’. 😉
 
Exactly. How strange to feel that the Creator God would be unable to be present Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharistic Species after He showed us His Divinity by His Resurrection testified to by eyewitnesses.

Perhaps you haven’t heard of real miracles.
I don’t accept the existence of miracles (for what to me are good reasons, but irrelevant to the thread).

My point was that if one accepts that miracles can happen, and that God can do anything He wants (that is neither a logical contradiction or against His nature) then, of course all one has to do is to assert that belief in order to justify one’s belief in transubstantiation. One doesn’t need a long paragraph of long words masquerading as a philosophical argument. I am not attempting to change your mind, nor are my or anyone else’s rational arguments of the slightest efficacy in this case. I am merely pointing out to what extent the Catholic belief in transubstantiation violates established philosophical, rational, and semantic concepts. This was in response to a poor analogy claiming that the change of substance in the consecration is no different from the change occurring to bread when it is eaten, digested and incorporated into the human body. The differences between the cases are, in fact, profound.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
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