Observations by a non believer

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hecd2:
Transubstantiation violates reason and, in particular, the rule of non-contradiction. A proposition cannot be true and false simultaneously (at least according to classical metaphysics); but transubstantiation demands that the consecrated Host is the substance of Christ, form and matter, and therefore true Flesh, while bearing all the accidents of bread. If it is bread, then it cannot be flesh, and if it is flesh, it cannot be bread. It violates reason to claim that a thing that displays all the properties of one substance is, in fact, another.
I beg to differ. As taught by the Church there is no contradiction. After consecration the host is no longer “bread” eventhough it looks like it. The consecrated host is the substantial presence of Jesus, it is not bread.
That statement is precisely the one which is in question. Merely restating what the Church teaches does not disarm my observation that what the Church teaches is contrary to reason, to the philosophical concepts in use and to semantics.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Aristotle spoke of prototypes in Heaven that are the substances of the material things on earth. One of his examples was that, there are many kinds of chairs, which are not made of the same stuff, nor even the same shape or size, and yet, all of them are recognizable as chairs - you look at any chair, and the word “chair” comes into your mind - the reason is that all of them share in the substance “chair” which is a spiritual essence that recognizably differentiates them from tables, floors, lamp stands, and beds - even though one chair may look a great deal more like a bed than another chair, which in its turn looks a great deal moe like a table, and there are some chairs with many outward features in common with carpets - yet, we class all of them together into the classification “chair” because that is what their substance is.
Well, by explaining this, you bring up another aspect of the question which I have so far played down, which is the fact that the Thomist-Aristotlian concept of essences (and hence substance separate from accidents or properties) has been completely undermined by modern thinking in philosophy, linguistics and science. It turns out that what for the Scholastics was essence is merely classification by convention. What is called “chair” in English generally excludes stools and pouffes and shooting sticks and chaises longues, but these things are not necessarily excluded in other languages (or indeed in the same language at different epochs). It possible to classify things in an infinite variety of ways, and the way that we choose is by convention in language and by definition in science. The point is that it is impossible to separate the classification of an entity from its properties (or accidents). That is precisely what we do when we recognise an object as a chair - we are not recognising some “spiritual essence” but making a conscious or unconscious classification of the object based on its properties. Some objects fall obviously into a certain classification, others are more ambiguous, but the fact is that classification is tied intimately to properties. This is another reason why it makes no sense to talk about an object having the substance of one thing and the accidents of another.
Now, with regard to the Eucharist, St. Paul affirmed that the true Christian, when he sees the bread and wine of the Eucharist, discerns Christ - that is, he looks on them and what comes into his mind is not “bread and wine” but rather, “Christ.”
I defy anyone to look at a communion wafer and discern whether it has been consecrated or not.
Thus, the substance of Eucharistic bread and wine is neither bread, nor wine, but Christ. Alive and whole. Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity. 🙂
Which is merely to re-assert the problematic doctrine.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Well, by explaining this, you bring up another aspect of the question which I have so far played down, which is the fact that the Thomist-Aristotlian concept of essences (and hence substance separate from accidents or properties) has been completely undermined by modern thinking in philosophy, linguistics and science. … The point is that it is impossible to separate the classification of an entity from its properties (or accidents).
Heisenberg actually advised a return to an Aristotelean understanding of matter and form:

The probability wave of Bohr, Kramers, Slater… was a quantitative version of the old concept of “potentia” in Aristotelian philosophy. It introduced something standing in the middle between the idea of an event and the actual event, a strange kind of physical reality just in the middle between possibility and reality. (Heisenberg, Physics and Philosophy, p. 15)

So matter is in potency (a wavefunction) until it receives its form (collapses). It is then a substance (union of matter and form).

Regarding Transubstantiation, we believe that the substance (matter and form) has changed, though the accidents have not. So if you were to look at a consecrated host with an electron microscope, the electrons would deflect as if they has interacted with carbohydrates, though they actually interacted with human cells. In some miraculous cases, the consecrated host has actually undergone a change in its accidents, for example at Lanciano, where a consecrated host became human heart tissue.

Hope this helps,

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com
 
Well, by explaining this, you bring up another aspect of the question which I have so far played down, which is the fact that the Thomist-Aristotlian concept of essences (and hence substance separate from accidents or properties) has been completely undermined by modern thinking in philosophy, linguistics and science. Alec
evolutionpages.com
How about some special pleading from this granny? 🙂

One of my philosophy professors had as his theme (maybe it was his dissertation) that Communism had its roots in the philosophy of Descartes. He demonstrated this with the progression of philosophical thought. When it came to one philosopher who was having difficulty deciding if he existed in another person’s imagination/mind because if he did then he probably existed… I dismissed him as nuts. (Obviously, I am slightly exaggerating.) The professor did prove his point. I passed the course happy that I did not seriously consider what some philosophers were saying.

Add to this my poor memory of what I found so fascinating in metaphysics and logic
– which means I am now going back to Thomas Aquinas, etc. Thus, I am asking that you and others on this thread do not assume that I know what you all are talking about. On the other hand, I find I now owe an apology to the dead professor I spaced out because what I actually learned was some skills in analyzing existence through questioning.

To begin with above out-of-context comment. “Thomist-Aristotlian concept of essences (and hence substance separate from accidents from properties)”

While I will have to dig for the usage of “essences”, I never got the impression that substance was separate from accidents in practical life. Neither one could exist without the other. The concepts were only separated in order to analyze their individual functions (properties?) and the important relationship to each other. Relationship and intradependence was key in having some kind of objective reality.

In my opinion, there is merit in looking at an object as a whole, substance and accidents uniquely united into one. The key issue with this thinking is that there has to be the recognition of the possibility of the non-material or spiritual even if one does not accept it. I need to go back to one of your posts to bring that into focus.

In the meantime, I have to go back to Thomist-Aristotlian concepts and look at them as if there were no contest regarding their usage.

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert
 
  1. When I hear people of faith use words like “faith” I have to ask what do they mean? I think they must really mean “hope”. For example," I hope there is a God who loves me" or " I hope that my sins are forgiven."
  1. If water is H2O then it cannot be, at the same time NaCl.
  2. I am a cradle catholic–clearly,fallen away at this point—I have studied in earnest and believe myself to be well informed.
Let’s start with Abraham. What was credited to him as “faith”? Basically he was credited with believing God’s promise about Isaac, having a child in old age, and the promise of “descendants” from that union.

However he had personal experiences to back up the faith. There was the episode of the flaming torch held by no hand. There were the three men who suddenly appeared at the tree of Mamre, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. In other words, Abraham had evidence to back up his faith. The **doubt **however was due to the long delay in the promise of a son.

Fast forward to Moses, and the Red (or Reed) Sea parted, but not until he’d already seen a bush burning without being consumed, heard a voice speaking out of thin air, and been instrumental in briinging about the ten plagues of Egypt. Later he was to see God walk past but not see His face. A pillar of cloud by day and fire by night accompanied the Israelites through the desert. Again he and they had evidence. But there were also** doubts** - disasters struck the camp, and they were condemned to wander forty years in the desert when they could have made the same trip in two weeks.

Move to the New Testament. The disciples witnessed people being healed miraculously, water turning into wine, bread and fish multiplying thousand fold, Christ walking on water, Lazarus rising from the dead after four days, the darkness when Christ was crucified, and the risen Christ, who spoke with them, ate with them, and ascended in plain sight. Again they had evidence. But there was also the doubt - the man they’d been following who seemed unbeatable was crucified as a criminal, and they all ran away.

Skip to Paul, and he was struck blind on the way to Damascus, heard the voice of the Lord, and was healed miraculously by a reluctant disciple. The doubt would have been due to his intense suffering, and the mysterious way God works, when for example he would not allow him to go one way, but told him to go to the Macedonians. He had both evidence and doubt.

Now not too many Christans have these radical experiences today. But most Christians do get some sort of witness given to them. We’re not left depending on a mere intellectual understanding of “faith”, as you and most atheists think. Even when I was still an atheist, I had the experience of my father turning up in my room the night he died, we argued and conversed, and then he disappeared with one almighty scream. Since becoming a Christian, I’ve had 3 experiences of what my Catholic psychiatrist called a “double whammy” (he’s had them too - it’s like a very strong breath going through you in waves from head to foot, and in my case was used to emphasise a phrase someone else was saying at the time, so that I still remember these phrases word for word today, years later). There have been quite a number of other experiences. And I’m not the only one.

So I know from experience that God and the spiritual world exist. But there is also doubt - when things go wrong for a considerable time, I wonder what the hell God is doing, and where is this power of His? I wonder why there is so much injustice, so much cruelty, so much inequality, why evil seems so pervasive? I do not know the answer, although I am equally sure the devil exists. He claimed the kingdoms of the world are all his, and perhaps just once he might have be telling the truth.

So in that context what is “faith”, if I’ve (and most other Christians) have been given “evidence” that God exists? The fact is that we are still required to go through periods of doubt. It is not faith in the sense that we know 2+2 equals 4. We can prove that by putting four items on a table and dividing them into 2 groups of 2. That’s evidential.

Perhaps an airplane flight could be example. You would have “faith” that your trip will be uneventful, and that you will get safely to your destination. Your faith would be based on the evidence of many successful flights by other people, backed up by your understanding of aerodynamics at whatever level, trust in maintenance regimes, and you may have flown many times before.

But suppose something goes terribly wrong on just one flight. Engines fail, some people die, a door blows out. A flight that normally is over fairly quickly seems to take hours of tortuous fear. You get there, but your unquestioning faith in heavier than air flight would have been severely tested.

You would probably still have faith in heavier than air flight, based on more than mere intellectualism. But you wouldn’t be so smug the next time. There would be some doubt.

I have faith that Mary appeared to 3 children at Fatima in 1917. The corroborating “evidence” is that 70,000 to 100,000 people saw the sun dance, including atheistic journalists, that atheists converted on the day, and scientists have calculated that the energy required to suddenly dry the ground and clothes of the people, despite the fact that it had rained for days beforehand, would have been equivalent to a 2 megaton nuclear explosion.

But I also believe that evidence because I already have faith in God and Christ, based on previous personal “experience”. Which is sometimes assailed by strong doubts and negative experiences.
 
The best explanation for the differences between Faith, Hope and Love that I have found is in the Spiritual Canticle of Saint John of the Cross, who writes that each virtue pertains to a different faculty of the soul. Faith pertains to the intellect; hope pertains to the memory; and love pertains to the will. For example, after receiving communion, my *intellect *is aware of God’s presence in my soul (Faith), my memory recalls the many graces God has given me (Hope), and my will commits to acting charitably toward my neighbor (Love). Hence, all three theological virtues are distinct and yet integrally part of the Christian life.

The doctrine of transubstantiation teaches us that the substance (matter and form) of the host becomes the Body of Christ, however, the accidents, or characteristics that are revealed to our senses, remain the same. So for example, if you looked at the host under an electron microscope, the electrons would bounce back as if they had interacted with carbohydrates, even though it is actually true Flesh. Also, as I wrote above, the theological virtues (Faith, Hope, and Love) are still a proper response to receiving the Eucharist, though there is no sensible reason for doing so. Nonetheless, masses have been said in which the transubstantiation was accompanied by the changes of the accidents, for example at Lanciano.

As Pope Leo XII taught, "Truth cannot contradict Truth (Providentissimus Deus), so if you have Truly found Truth elsewhere then these Truths cannot contradict the Faith.

Hope this helps,

-Ryan Vilbig
ryan.vilbig@gmail.com
Well, that is a significant problem for me as you apply the “truth cannot truth” axiom. Because in your application, you say your set of dogma is correct, regardless of any prevailing logic, rationale, facts or principles. You therefore close off the possibility of being wrong about your beliefs.

This cannot be a healthy manner in which to pursue truth, can it?
 
Jack

*I would hate to think that in the 21st century, you were defending transubstantiation on no firmer basis than 12th century analysis. *

And I would hate to think that with your brilliant legal mind the whore Reason could have duped you into thinking that the most recent heresy must be the truth. Wouldn’t that be a little like saying that the Constitution contains a privacy clause allowing the killing of the unborn because it is done in private, and then saying that it must be in the Constitution because it is the Supreme Court’s most recent take on the Constitution?

Or perhaps Chesterton put it better when he said he was getting a bit weary of people who insist that what is said on Thursday must be truer than what was said on Tuesday.
Do I detect some vitriole in your response?
 
Well, that is a significant problem for me as you apply the “truth cannot truth” axiom. Because in your application, you say your set of dogma is correct, regardless of any prevailing logic, rationale, facts or principles. You therefore close off the possibility of being wrong about your beliefs.

This cannot be a healthy manner in which to pursue truth, can it?
There is a very reasonable source for the “truth cannot contradict truth” sound bite.

St. Thomas Aquinas emphasized that one needs to both understand Catholic doctrine correctly and to do science well. From an article in This Rock magazine catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0811fea4.asp
 
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hecd2:
I defy anyone to look at a communion wafer and discern whether it has been consecrated or not.
As my Irish mother would say: “Please do not judge a book by its cover.”
Perhaps not, but that is precisely what jmcrae was suggesting:
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jmcrae:
St. Paul affirmed that the true Christian, when he sees the bread and wine of the Eucharist, discerns Christ - that is, he looks on them and what comes into his mind is not “bread and wine” but rather, “Christ.”
In other words, his claim (or rather I suppose that of Paul ) is that looking at a chair and recognising it as a chair is similar to a “true” Christian (as opposed to a false one?) looking on the Eucharist and recognising it as Christ. I was pointing out that that the two cases aren’t remotely similar, because the “true” Christian is unable to discern a consecrated from an unconsecrated communion wafer, so that the “true” Christian’s experience of Christ in the Eucharist, to the extent that it is a real experience, depends entirely on an a priori knowledge of whether or not the communion wafer has been consecrated. It is therefore not a discernment at all.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
 
Perhaps not, but that is precisely what jmcrae was suggesting:

In other words, his claim (or rather I suppose that of Paul ) is that looking at a chair and recognising it as a chair is similar to a “true” Christian (as opposed to a false one?) looking on the Eucharist and recognising it as Christ. I was pointing out that that the two cases aren’t remotely similar, because the “true” Christian is unable to discern a consecrated from an unconsecrated communion wafer, so that the “true” Christian’s experience of Christ in the Eucharist, to the extent that it is a real experience, depends entirely on an a priori knowledge of whether or not the communion wafer has been consecrated. It is therefore not a discernment at all.

Alec
evolutionpages.com
I agree with you. I’ll figure out why later.😉
 
Well, that is a significant problem for me as you apply the “truth cannot truth” axiom. Because in your application, you say your set of dogma is correct, regardless of any prevailing logic, rationale, facts or principles. You therefore close off the possibility of being wrong about your beliefs.

This cannot be a healthy manner in which to pursue truth, can it?
A healthy manner in which to pursue truth? No.

A healthy manner in which to defend truth against falsehood? Now that’s a different story 😃
 
Hey Jack.
I understand you’re not trying to be offensive. Keep in mind neither am I. I read your post, and to be honest there’s not much to say other than that you’ve misunderstood both Saint Thomas’ proofs and Ockham’s razor. First, Saint Thomas does argue from causality, but it is a little more in depth than that. It would take much longer than I’d like to go through it, so maybe when you have free time or are at home, read the treatise about “The One God” in the First Part of St. Thomas’ Summa. If you really want me to go in depth, I’ll do so in a PM or e-mail. That God has certain attributes is a necessary logical consequence of the proofs of Saint Thomas. These attributes are the ones we usually ascribe to God. Thus he always says “and all people call this God”. Of course this may seem like a blank assertion at first, but he later draws the attributes in the following pages.

Now, Ockham’s razor does not mean that once we’ve come to a conclusion, we must ignore the necessary and logical consequences. Ockham was actually extremely important in the development of logic in Western philosophy, and I don’t think he’d be too happy if we twisted his theory that way. I’d like to remind you that Ockham was a Franciscan friar who believed in the same Christian God as Saint Thomas.

Thanks for the response. I don’t view Thomas’ arguments as all that persuasive. As I may have said before, I grew up RC and was taught by the Jebbies in h.s. and I attended 4 yrs at a Jesuit University. So Thomas was pretty much the philosopher of choice back in my “salad days”.

Anyway, you forced me to google Thomas again to refresh my memory. The first three arguments merely posit that there can’t be an infinite regression. Okay? So what? If we regress and come to the ultimate principles of physics, doesn’t that satisfy Thomas’ argument for what that “prime mover” is? Does the “prime mover” really have to be a person, with characteristics which drive a need for reverance, obedience and all the other things you say we must do in our relationship with Thomas’ version of the “prime mover”?

This, by the way, is also why I think Occam’s razor cuts here. I submit that the result of Thomas’ finite regression may actually be the set of principles which make a rational cosmos. Just as mathematics is not a person, so then neither is “rationality” a person—nor, is logic logic a person. The fact that such principles exist and operate is all by itself an awesome thing. Nevertheless, I hardly think we ned to infuse a personality into whatever the final and ultimate principle of being may be. It would be silly to consider math ,or, logic,or, rationality as “persons” or “gods” to be worshipped. Indeed such beautiful constructs are to be marveled at, to be humbled by, to be in awe of—but as of the Eastern philosophers opined–you cannot enhance it [the ultimate principle] by worship, you cannot placate it by obedience; you cannot resist this reality, or, principles because they are intriniscally and ultimately what “being” is (or “esse” as the Jebbies used to say). Hence, Occam’s razor. Why put personality–much less three distinct personalities–into the mix? Why not simply marvel that there is something rather than nothing, that it operates by principles which we struggle to learn and comprehend, that emergent properties allow sentient beings like you and I, and, what a wonderous mystry the cosmos is.

Another of Thomas’ argument is the gradients of virtue. Well, there might be a hot, hotter and hottest of any thing. I’m not sure there must be perfect “hot”. It is a little too platonic for me–almost like saying that “up there” in the—“world of Ideals”—there is a prototypical “hot” so we’ll call it God.

OK, I know “hot” isn’t a virtue, but, you see my point.

The best argument and the one I understood and felt was a perfect explanation when I was still in school was that of design. but “design” can be accounted for by emergent properties. I am sure I have posted on this site my analog of the ant colony. An ant colony has what appears to be design, drainage, birthing chambers and sites for disposing of waste–yet, there is no mayor, no design committee, no planning coordinator. Complxity seems, in nature, to arise from the simple and then advance to the complex. It is bottom up rather than top down, in other words. That is much different than the classic understandings of the Judeo/Christian tradition by which a complex godhead creates a universe comprised of designed (simpler)creatures.

Altogether, I find the study and pursuit of knowledge and truth to be fascinating and challenging. My greatest wish is that I were smarter because there is so much to know and learn that I simply cannot comprehend it all. The cosmos and its laws are profound and deeply mysterious-- in my judgment, it would be a grave mistake for people of faith to come to a conclusion that they have the ultimate “truths” and deceive themselves into looking no further than to their doctrines and dogmas. The future of this planet and how humans come to reconcile themselves with the huge problems facing humanity at this point is also a matter worth debating in these forums. If you ever read Ray Kurtzwel, I’d be interested in your take on his ideas. There is a lot of practical things we should be doing, in my judgment, rather than engaging in doctrinal justifications for antiquated beliefs.

I do appreciate your assurances to me that you do not take my postings personally nor are offended by my remarks. I sense that others who have posted in reaction to mine do, however, take offense, and, that is regrettable. However, as long as you enjoy dialog with me, I’ll continue to swap comments and thoughts although I cannot always as routine as I might like.
 
A healthy manner in which to pursue truth? No.

A healthy manner in which to defend truth against falsehood? Now that’s a different story 😃
It is only your cheshire cat grin that makes me think you must have a point–but what can it be?

If it isn’t a healthy way to pursue truth, then, how can you defend it in the same manner which you recognize as unhealthy in its discernment?

/s/ Puzzled in the Midwest :confused:
 
As for no evidence, aside from Divine Revelation and thousands of other empirically-verifiable miracles of the Church, here are some related specifically to the Eucharist. While they do not make sense from a naturalistic and materialistic understanding of the universe, they are empirically verifiable if you do not have said naturalistic bias. The one from Lanciano has had quite a bit of testing done on it.

therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/siena.html
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/blanot.html
piercedhearts.org/treasures/eucharistic_miracles/santarem.htm
therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
catholicdoors.com/misc/eucharisticmiracles.htm

All the best.
What does the Lanciano incident prove really? That there is dried human tissue and blood that apparently has some mummified characteristics, but, leaves the authenticity of more important and relevant details dependent upon the reports of a 16th century priest. It was, after all, an era of highly profitable beatific claims (as indeed the shroud of Turin represents).

If the Church had allowed DNA and material testing which revealed human tissue without any human paternal contribution, and, actually dated to the first century, then I say you are still in the game. Otherwise, I am inclined to think that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

And, if you stop and consider the point, wouldn’t you expect as much on any other extraordinary claim. For example, doesn’t the intellect require so much more than what it has been given to satisfy one of the reputed Rosswell alien crash of the 1940’s (or whenever it was)? I have seen the same bigfoot sighting films, the same television reports of interviews with UFO abductees as you have; and, is it not so that----as a thinking, rational person---- you must demand hard and unequivocal evidence before you hole up in a Big Six motel to wait out the 2012 Myan apocolyspe?
 
It is only your cheshire cat grin that makes me think you must have a point–but what can it be?

If it isn’t a healthy way to pursue truth, then, how can you defend it in the same manner which you recognize as unhealthy in its discernment?

/s/ Puzzled in the Midwest :confused:
When one is searching for the truth about something, that means the truth is not yet known. An open mind is a virtue at that point. Closing one’s mind before the truth is known usually results in the acceptance of falsehood as truth, or infrequently the acceptance of the truth blindly without reason.

When one encounters the truth about something, however, the searching is over. There is no further need for an open mind on the matter. Why be open to alternatives when that which contradicts the truth is, by definition, not true but a mere falsehood?

It’s perfectly reasonable to expect a Catholic to not have an open mind on the dogmatic teachings of the Church. The Deposit of Faith isn’t something discovered by human action through research and experimentation like an empirical science. It’s God revealing Himself to us, mainly through the person of Jesus Christ.
 
When one is searching for the truth about something, that means the truth is not yet known. An open mind is a virtue at that point. Closing one’s mind before the truth is known usually results in the acceptance of falsehood as truth, or infrequently the acceptance of the truth blindly without reason.

When one encounters the truth about something, however, the searching is over. There is no further need for an open mind on the matter. Why be open to alternatives when that which contradicts the truth is, by definition, not true but a mere falsehood?

It’s perfectly reasonable to expect a Catholic to not have an open mind on the dogmatic teachings of the Church. The Deposit of Faith isn’t something discovered by human action through research and experimentation like an empirical science. It’s God revealing Himself to us, mainly through the person of Jesus Christ.
I think we have all had the experience of being certain about something that we later learned was not true. That is why most of us have learned to remain open to new evidence and arguments as they become available.
 
I think we have all had the experience of being certain about something that we later learned was not true. That is why most of us have learned to remain open to new evidence and arguments as they become available.
So your open to the possibility of a square triangle. Great:rolleyes:.
 
I think we have all had the experience of being certain about something that we later learned was not true. That is why most of us have learned to remain open to new evidence and arguments as they become available.
I am open to new evidence or arguments on many topics, such as astronomy, biology, politics, economics or literature.

But I’m no more open to questioning the dogmatic teachings of the Church than I am to questioning if I was born somewhere other than San Angelo, Texas.
 
When one is searching for the truth about something, that means the truth is not yet known. An open mind is a virtue at that point. Closing one’s mind before the truth is known usually results in the acceptance of falsehood as truth, or infrequently the acceptance of the truth blindly without reason.

When one encounters the truth about something, however, the searching is over. There is no further need for an open mind on the matter. Why be open to alternatives when that which contradicts the truth is, by definition, not true but a mere falsehood?

It’s perfectly reasonable to expect a Catholic to not have an open mind on the dogmatic teachings of the Church. The Deposit of Faith isn’t something discovered by human action through research and experimentation like an empirical science. It’s God revealing Himself to us, mainly through the person of Jesus Christ.
Perhaps, your right. We should close the books on things, even though, some of us would like to think that having an open mind is a virtue. One thing I know for sure, though.Your logic will certainly be less than reassuring to people on death row since the 1970’s who now are awaiting the results of DNA testing in their cases.
 
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