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djrakowski
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My goodness, thanks for illustrating my point.
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djrakowski
Guest
Forgiven, of course. Thank you.
Understood.Your right and I apologize. My anger is really directed at the administrators and not at the Catholic posters on this forum. I only wish they had at least had the decency warn us a little.
Why is it, do you think, that there’s not an Orthodox Answers website and discussion forum? When I was in the process of deciding whether to convert to Catholicism, I didn’t encounter even one Orthodox equivalent to Catholic Answer, and yet there are a handful of prominent Catholic organizations engaged in this work.
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East_and_West
Guest
No. What we and the sponsors on this forum are not interested in is allowing the Eastern Orthodox to trash the Catholic faith without any consequences, while faithful Catholics who defend the truth are are constantly banned or have their accounts under review. For goodness sakes, it had gotten to the point where one could not express the Catholic view that EOs are not part of the Church established by Jesus, without getting banned.
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wannabee
Guest
but you see this IS one of the problems
<< Catholic view that EOs are not part of the Church established by Jesus, without getting banned.>>
RCs say that the Orthodox left the church and the orthodox say that the RCs left the Church.
There was a split - yes - no-one denies it but who caused it ?? Now that is the really BIG question
<< Catholic view that EOs are not part of the Church established by Jesus, without getting banned.>>
RCs say that the Orthodox left the church and the orthodox say that the RCs left the Church.
There was a split - yes - no-one denies it but who caused it ?? Now that is the really BIG question
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lak611
Guest
In this day and age, does it really matter who left? Can we work towards getting back together without focusing on that question?
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wannabee
Guest
of course we should be - that’s not in doubt .
But how can anyone really believe that’s the way forward when people post things like
Tolerance is required - words have to be chosen carefully.
I’ve been called a heretic a few time - by RCs too and I’m an EC .
Frankly I’m appalled at all this - and it comes down to a lack of education
But how can anyone really believe that’s the way forward when people post things like
If you quote something like that to a group of feisty Orthodox Christians then you cannot be surprised if they protest .
Tolerance is required - words have to be chosen carefully.
I’ve been called a heretic a few time - by RCs too and I’m an EC .
Frankly I’m appalled at all this - and it comes down to a lack of education
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dessert
Guest
You are not meaning what you say.
Obadiah did I do something personally to you?
I prayed when I you asked me to, and I never took you off my list.
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Daisiegirl
Guest
I am new to this website. While ‘surfing’ around, I found this thread and felt compelled to respond… I believe it appropriate and accurate to identify a thread as ‘Eastern Catholic,’ as opposed to ‘Eastern Christianity’… Byzantine Catholics act properly, when faithfully withholding any allegiance, to any branch or sect of the Orthodox Church. Faithful Byzantine Catholics profess allegiance and belief in ALL defined Catholic dogma of the Church Magisterium and their Councils. The Orthodox deny papal infalliblity, the chair of Peter~as instituted by Our Lord, purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, the Filioque, the guilt of original sin, and purgatory. Thank you administrators for your insight, understanding and empathy in this matter.
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jimmy
Guest
All us eastern Catholics should be die hard Thomists too, right?
Eastern Catholics hold to the Byzantine and the Syriac traditions, not the Latin tradition. The latin tradition defined original sin and the Imaculate conception and etc. The Byzantine tradition and the Syriac tradition did not. We are not subject to the latin church. Vatican II affirms that all particular churches are equal. The latin church is not supperior. And their theology is not superior.
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jimmy
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One of my main problems with the change is that many eastern Catholics do not simply accept the theology of the latins. Many byzantines follow the same tradition as the Eastern Orthodox. Many Syriac Christians hold to a view that is more similar to those of the Syrian Orthodox. Are we not allowed to defend our views now, since they could be considered as being non-Catholic according to the definition given? Are the more traditionally minded eastern Catholics now pushed out as well?
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ASimpleSinner
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I guess the question that we might want to talk about is what our relationship to Latin theology is, and what manifestation of Byzantine Theology or what schools of thoughts on the Fathers we hold.
Just as Thomists are not the only show in Rome, there is not a singular “Byzantine school”. Wholesale adoption of the modern texts and theologies of certain jurisdictions would not represent a fullness of our patrimony either.
Some of the Gallician schools of thought where east and west met - Catholic & Orthodox - are far friendlier to certain Latin concepts than some other schools. Certain Greek theologians, for example, took St. Thomas Aq. to task for NOT accepting the IC. Today their thinking would not well be represented in many Orthodox theological expositions that take a definatively contradistinctive position.
So I agree, we are not all Thomist. By the same token we are not all ((insert Ortho jurisdiction here)) proponents either.
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SiempreFiel
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ASimpleSinner
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My goal is to be a radical moderate. Sometimes I hit the mark.Well-balanced, clear, and objective. Thank you.
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Woodstock
Guest
I would think now is the time for them to step forward and explain their rightful place in the Church!
Eastern Catholicism includes the Rayas and Zoghbys just as much (hopefully far more) than it does the PSSJs!
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ASimpleSinner
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To be sure, I agree. To be fair, it includes more still.
I am no PSSJ fan, but the reasons for their animus and growing support in some quarters has been the pastoral blunder of certain of the hiearchs basically saying “Your a palamite now, put down that Rosary and take down those stations of the cross and do it yesterday” Nevermind that - however latinized those devotions were, they were part and parcel of the praxis of some of the faithful for generations.
There is something to be said for easing into some things. There is also something to be said for including the “High Greek Catholics” in a discussion and considering their point of view before summarily telling some to “snap out of it, that was wrong and bad, this is right and good, change NOW”.
After generations of latin-eastern interface in Ukraine between Poland and Russia, Catholic and Orthodoxy, you find levels of theological, devotional and liturgical admixture amongst both Catholic AND Orthodox parties.
Just look at the “Italian holy card” icons in Ukrainian orthodxy, the baroque architecture, the catechism of Metr. Peter Mohila… You see a pretty clear case of theological interchange and acceptence and incorporation of things of Latin patrimony into the Slav east. Much of the American desire to compartmentalize and draw lines of demarcation between east and west doesn’t always work well. Where people lived along the cross roads, you found Latins with icons, and Orthodox homes with reproduction statues of the Pieta. Its out there, it happens.
The east is a mighty big place. There is room to talk about a lot of these things without one single party being named “THE Byzantine” way.
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Edwin1961
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True. We started as one Church. The split occurs in 1054, and then some come back to the Church of Rome (1596) and since then, we Byzantine Catholics are only seen as ‘traitors’ from the Orthodox point of view. We have proven by our history (Eastern Catholics) that our traditions from before the Schism are alive and well.
Who left who is not what Christ had in mind. He wants everyone to be One. I believe Byzantine Catholics hold that key in making that possible by continuing to exist.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
This mentality by some Latin Catholics is very insulting. We do not have to explain anything. If you need an explaination look to the documents by Pope Paul VI and John Paul II. I believe even Vatican II has a document for you.
One thing I will not miss is the ever present question posted asking us Eastern Catholics why we stay Catholic. That seems to be the first question from some Latin Catholics. How offensive that is. How would they like it if I not only asked them why they stay Catholic but to explain their rightful place in the Church!
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Vintagecoils
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to be.**I’m just bothered by the view many Orthodox appear hold regarding Catholicism. **
I am always baffled by this view.WE clearly have different beliefs of what is the truth of Christ and his Church. Accept that and then you won’t take it so personal and feel hurt. Then you would be able to present your side.
You set yourself up for disappointment with this because in fact no Orthodox has even given you a foundation for this type of thinking.Code:**I had always hoped they held Catholic in the same regard that we see them. **
I’m starting to see that this is sadly not the case.
Your sadness is do to your own mis directed assumptions.
**Catholics are much more open to reconciliation that the ****Orthodox **B]appear
You stated clearly when you say appear.
Entirely to much judgement and attempts at one upmanship from both sides do appear in the forum.
Please show me where I am wrong. I hope that I am.
Only in your approach to discussing and defending your faith.
I think if people come to the forum with no preconsieved views of how someone else should see or except their view would help.
Too many wear their information on their sleeve and get upset when someone challenges them.
I for one don’t want protestant or other non Catholic cluttered theology coming into a discussion on views between Orthodox and Latin Catholics.
Someone should however, be able to ask a question of an Eastern Orthodox and receive a Eastern Orthodox answer. Eastern Catholic mostly follow Eastern Orthodox theology so to assume there will never be a conflict there is also a sign of ignorance of the Rite.
If that means something may be said to cast doubt on the Latin Catholism and this website cannot tolerate that, than it would be unjust to have any forum set up and claim it is for Eastern Catholic knowledge or Unity between East and West discussion but the one side be muted in their responses.
Code:
The Orthodox would serve their beliefs better to go elsewhere than to be sensored.:(
Some basic common sense of debating rules.:blush:
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manualman
Guest
I’m a Latin rite guy, grew up in Midwest America and know little of Eastern Christian theology and thought that I didn’t learn here at this forum. I come to CAF because I know a little bit about a few things that I can share and because I realize there is a LOT that I don’t know about a lot of things.
I found the culture of the Eastern Forum to be one of polemics more often than dialogue. Clearly something needed to be done. Here you have Catholic Answers spending money donated by catholics to establish a catholic apologetics site and instead what existed in the EC forum was a small group of Orthodox posters who, instead of engaging in dialogue as guests at a catholic site, proceeded with an attitude of Orthodox dogmatism (yes, I realize the irony) incompatible with the mission of this site.
I don’t think this would have happend if the Orthodox posters (especially the big post count names) regularly had an attitude of humble presentation of the Orthodox perspective and acknowledgement of the differences with Roman Catholicism. Instead they (often understandably) got offended by immature catholic posters and responded in kind. To be sure, many such dogmatic and hostile responses were cloaked in a McBrienesque guise of deniability that must have made moderation infuriating!
How could CAF defend the status quo if questioned by donating patrons when the subforum had essentially become the fiefdom of a few EO who regularly strove not to dialogue, but to eagerly undermine the catholic position? To be sure, the above noted immature catholic posters would require nearly heroic virtue for consistent appropriate EO response. But guests in a catholic site shouldn’t be surprised to be expected to be held to a high standard. As an EO, how could you think it your RIGHT to expend catholic resources to proselytize eastern orthodoxy?
I found the culture of the Eastern Forum to be one of polemics more often than dialogue. Clearly something needed to be done. Here you have Catholic Answers spending money donated by catholics to establish a catholic apologetics site and instead what existed in the EC forum was a small group of Orthodox posters who, instead of engaging in dialogue as guests at a catholic site, proceeded with an attitude of Orthodox dogmatism (yes, I realize the irony) incompatible with the mission of this site.
I don’t think this would have happend if the Orthodox posters (especially the big post count names) regularly had an attitude of humble presentation of the Orthodox perspective and acknowledgement of the differences with Roman Catholicism. Instead they (often understandably) got offended by immature catholic posters and responded in kind. To be sure, many such dogmatic and hostile responses were cloaked in a McBrienesque guise of deniability that must have made moderation infuriating!
How could CAF defend the status quo if questioned by donating patrons when the subforum had essentially become the fiefdom of a few EO who regularly strove not to dialogue, but to eagerly undermine the catholic position? To be sure, the above noted immature catholic posters would require nearly heroic virtue for consistent appropriate EO response. But guests in a catholic site shouldn’t be surprised to be expected to be held to a high standard. As an EO, how could you think it your RIGHT to expend catholic resources to proselytize eastern orthodoxy?
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Irenicist
Guest
By and large, I find that Catholic posters who get out of line and start spewing the contents of their spleen are quickly called to order by their fellows. The more moderate and charitable Orthodox posters, on the other hand, remain silent when the Orthodox trolls get into the act, leaving the false impression that all Orthodox are offensive hotheads.
There are cultural differences involved, and polemic hate-filled discourse still seems to be considered acceptable in Orthodox circles, even if not all Orthodox buy into it. It’s very much like how Catholics tolerated casual anti-Semitism in the early 20th century. We have learned, and most of us have grown up since then. It would seem others have not, or are on a different trajectory.
I long for charitable, informed and enlightening discourse with Orthodox posters here. Instead, I found ad hominem arguments, misrepresentation of Catholic beliefs that is both persistant and seemingly immune to authoritative correction, selective historical amnesia, and virtual canonisations of anti-Catholic prejudices, charges and accusations I know are not shared by all Orthodox.
The more prolific Orthodox posters here (I can’t speak for the lurkers) are not interested in learning about Catholicism but in validating these prejudices at worst, or in comparing real Catholicism (warts and all) with a fictitious immaculate and impeccable Orthodox ideal at best.
Sadly, Catholics in the West are poorly equiped to handle this kind of discourse. We are used to Protestants with their usual out of contexts verse slinging, but the Orthodox polemicists nurse grievances based on ritual minutae and ancient historical events that are obscure to most Westerners who consequently tend to accept the offered Orthodox take on them at face value.
The Catholic Church has been arguing with Orthodoxy for a very long time, however, far longer than it has with Protestantism, and all the traditional Orthodox arguments have long ago been answered convincingly for any who care to listen. Yet who here is prepared to take the time to research the background behind, and learned response to, the litany of supposed Catholic failures and turpitudes Orthodox polemicists take such pleasure in using as discourse-ending zingers?
Try it, and see how flumfloxed they become.
Dont get me wrong. There are some Orthodox posters here who actually breathe love and charity. They stress what they find positive in their own faith without invidious comparisons. They correct Catholic misconceptions without spreading their own about Catholicism, and recount their personal experiences without necessarily generalizing from them. They offer their own home as an alternative to those seeking shelter, without shouting “unclean, unclean” at others. They don’t post nearly enough, however. The reflex seems to be to close ranks and defend your fellow Orthodox no matter how outrageous his charges or behaviour.
I can only shake my head.
Irenicist
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