Observing a homeless man at mass

[JPUSC]

Corporal works of mercy

**Feed the hungry
Give drink to the thirsty
Clothe the naked
Shelter the Homeless **
Visit the sick
Visit the imprisoned
Bury the dead

 

[ruslan]

…He obviously was not a Catholic if he did not know we are required to fast for one hour before communion. … Should I just forget about it and accept the fact that this man is probably mentally disturbed? Is it uncharitable to assume he is diseased and may be spreading disease on the chalice!

I am always wary of people who make assumptions.

 

[IrishAm]

After Mass and Stations of the Cross last Friday afternoon during the lunch hour, I stuck a bill into my pocket, suddenly having the thought that I should have it ready in case I saw a beggar on the street. As I crossed toward my office, there was a parapalegic man in a wheelchair. He was dirty and toothless and pretty incoherent, but had a sign that said “help a homeless vet.” Everyone was walking right by him. I gave him the bill from my pocket and he said “May God bless you.” I responded, “Thank you, sir, and you as well.”

As I walked away, tears filled my eyes (as they are doing again in the retelling). A man with no home, no job, no legs, and no attractiveness in any way shape or form, had just asked God Almighty to bless ME. It seems then, and now, like the most powerful blessing I have ever received. I am humbled just thinking of it . . .

It can be awfully uncomfortable to be near someone be so out of place as the man at Mass of which the OP spoke. But I suspect it is seldom a coincidence. Blessings come to us when we least expect it . . . and there are “angels unaware” . . . :angel1:

 

[FAB]

The traditional teaching of the Church is that it’s the spotless white garment of baptism.

Maybe old tradition. The representation of the white garment is as a new member of the body of Christ, as a new creation washed of original sin. This theology took hundrends of years to develop so it would be unlikely it would be what Christ was talking about. It certainly doesn’t refer to the dress of a homeless man in the21st century.

Peace,
FAB

 

[jkarp]

If the man didn’t fulfill the conditions for a mortal sin, then his soul is not in danger. If he’s a Protestant, he probably thinks its a normal communion service without any Real Presence. If he’s a Catholic, there’s no reason for him to be barred from the Sacrament if he’s in good conscience. If he’s an atheist, he doesn’t know what he’s doing.

If he’s a protestant and receiving communion, his soul is in peril (if this is not true, would we not admit protestants to communion?). If he is a Catholic than he has, at best, received in an unworthy manner as he had not fasted for at least an hour before reception (as the OP observed him eating up within minutes of reception).

Guidelines for the Reception of Communion

 

[JPUSC]

If he’s a protestant and receiving communion, his soul is in peril (if this is not true, would we not admit protestants to communion?). If he is a Catholic than he has, at best, received in an unworthy manner as he had not fasted for at least an hour before reception (as the OP observed him eating up within minutes of reception).

Guidelines for the Reception of Communion

Yeah, but a mortal sin must be committed with full knowledge and deliberate and complete consent.

 

[jmcrae]

Maybe old tradition. The representation of the white garment is as a new member of the body of Christ, as a new creation washed of original sin. This theology took hundrends of years to develop so it would be unlikely it would be what Christ was talking about.

Just because it took a couple of decades (not hundreds of years) for the Early Church to figure out that that’s what Jesus was talking about, doesn’t mean that Jesus wasn’t actually talking about that.

It certainly doesn’t refer to the dress of a homeless man in the 21st century.

Right, it doesn’t.

The problem with that guy was not that he was badly dressed (because there is a good chance that he couldn’t help that), but that his behaviour was completely out of line.

 

[FAB]

If he’s a protestant and receiving communion, his soul is in peril (if this is not true, would we not admit protestants to communion?). If he is a Catholic than he has, at best, received in an unworthy manner as he had not fasted for at least an hour before reception (as the OP observed him eating up within minutes of reception).

Guidelines for the Reception of Communion

A bit of scrupilosty here, the law being more important than the need. I don’t ever remember were Jesus ask if the leper was a Jew or gentile before he healed them.
The man’s presence is now known to at least one person in this church. The question is will he follow through on the cammand of Jesus and see if there is help that can be given.

Peace,
FAB

 

[jmcrae]

A bit of scrupilosty here, the law being more important than the need.

What need are we talking about here? (Nobody has a “need” to desecrate the Eucharist.)

I don’t ever remember were Jesus ask if the leper was a Jew or gentile before he healed them.

I’m not sure how this applies to the situation. The man was not asking for help from anyone.

 

[FAB]

Just because it took a couple of decades (not hundreds of years) for the Early Church to figure out that that’s what Jesus was talking about, doesn’t mean that Jesus wasn’t actually talking about that.

The problem with that guy was not that he was badly dressed (because there is a good chance that he couldn’t help that), but that his behaviour was completely out of line.

It is one interpetation, about baptism, but we do take the message of Jesus in light to whom he was speaking.

As far as behavior, Jesus ate with sinners as a prelude to the kingdom of God. This man is part of that Kingdom.

Peace,
FAB

 

[FAB]

What need are we talking about here? (Nobody has a “need” to desecrate the Eucharist.)

I’m not sure how this applies to the situation. The man was not asking for help from anyone.

I was responding to your previous post as he should have been fasting before recieving communion, and that if he was protestant he should recieve at all. The man didn’t desecrate the Eucharist, he didn’t spit it on the ground, how can you judge that the man taking the prescious blood did not provide some healing for this man? How do we know that God did not call him there because no one else is offering help?

Peace,
FAB

 

[onetruechurch]

Thanks to all responders. I only visit this cathedral at the most once a month since it is neither my parish nor in my home town. I thoroughly enjoyed reading all the responses and agree with all of you. There are two sides to this situation.
What I did was the following. I wrote an e-mail to the cathedral address describing the circumstances of the improper behavior. I described exactly where the man was sitting because it was in a spot way off to the side where the ushers may not be able to see. Maybe next Sunday they will watch that area more closely. I’ll leave it in their hands. If they answer my e-mail I will let you know.
:curtsey:

 

[jkarp]

Yeah, but a mortal sin must be committed with full knowledge and deliberate and complete consent.

So then why aren’t Protestants or other non-Catholics (with the exception of the Orthodox churches) allowed to take Communion at Mass?

 

[allhers]

What need are we talking about here? (Nobody has a “need” to desecrate the Eucharist.)

I’m not sure how this applies to the situation. The man was not asking for help from anyone.

That is exactly why I addressed it the way I did, the man doesn’t have to ask for help does he when it is perfectly obvious by the way the OP described him that he is indeed in need.
We’re not saying that he ought to be allowed to continue to just freely come as he pleases and only drink from the Precious Blood of Christ, which to him may only be seen as wine, however, he does need a place to lay his head at night, proper nutrition and clean clothes and a shower.

Wouldn’t you want those things if you were in his situation?
Would you want to have to beg from someone for them or wouldn’t it be good if it were just provided? I know in our area we have homeless shelters and food programs to help those in need, but when you see someone like this in this case, wouldn’t it be good to know the names of the places to tell him he could go to for help? Or perhaps be able to give him a few dollars or something other than to just look down on him and think not good things about him?

At the very least, pray for him.

 

[JPUSC]

So then why aren’t Protestants or other non-Catholics (with the exception of the Orthodox churches) allowed to take Communion at Mass?

They aren’t allowed to receive the Eucharist because they aren’t in full communion with the Church. It is indeed a grave act, but for it to qualify as a mortal sin, they have to be fully aware that what they are doing is wrong.

A mortal sin must meet all of the following conditions:

1. its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter;
2. it must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (though nobody is deemed to be ignorant of the moral law, embedded into the consciences of every human being);
3. it must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.

Furthermore, writing in the Middle Ages, St. Thomas responded to a question about a mouse that found its way into the tabernacle and had eaten the Host. Since the bread had become the Body of Christ, it was supposed, the mouse had committed a sacrilege. Aquinas responded that one receives Holy Communion in faith and since the mouse in the tabernacle had no faith, there was no sacrilege. (newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/catholicamerica/2008/07/sally_quinn_mouse_in_the_taber.html)

 

[pismopal]

I live in a beach community…communities…and parishes here attract alcoholics and street people who are sometimes psychotic. Some of them are not responsible for their behavior at times BUT that being said…we cannot allow them to do disruptive or disrespectful things because they have a mental problem or addiction. They need supervision and sometimes even an escort to another location but to enable them to do the aforementioned is not adult responsible behavior on our part. Most of the addicted…to whatever and the psychotic are not without resources…at least locally…but the rub can be that some of them are so far gone that they ignore or neglect themselves and they need professional help. Don’t forget the police…they are not the bad guys and they have knowledge of how to steer these people to the help they need…it’s there for them. Hey…it’s not un Christian to be a little tough sometimes when it is needed.

 

[jkarp]

They aren’t allowed to receive the Eucharist because they aren’t in full communion with the Church. It is indeed a grave act, but for it to qualify as a mortal sin, they have to be fully aware that what they are doing is wrong.

A mortal sin must meet all of the following conditions:

1. its subject must be a grave (or serious) matter;
2. it must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense (though nobody is deemed to be ignorant of the moral law, embedded into the consciences of every human being);
3. it must be committed with deliberate and complete consent, enough for it to have been a personal decision to commit the sin.

Furthermore, writing in the Middle Ages, St. Thomas responded to a question about a mouse that found its way into the tabernacle and had eaten the Host. Since the bread had become the Body of Christ, it was supposed, the mouse had committed a sacrilege. Aquinas responded that one receives Holy Communion in faith and since the mouse in the tabernacle had no faith, there was no sacrilege. (newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/catholicamerica/2008/07/sally_quinn_mouse_in_the_taber.html)

1. I’m not talking about mortal sin, I am talking about sacrilege.
2. You’re comparing a homeless person to a mouse? Hmm . . .

Even if a protestant doesn’t have the full knowledge of the act, it is placing his/her soul in a perilous state. We receive the Eucharist because it has an actual effect on our souls in reality. The fact that one doesn’t acknowledge this reality doesn’t change the reality; believer or not, it is effectual.

Throughout scripture, the Lord never fails to punish sacrilege - even Christ became outraged when he witnessed this in the temple. And just to be clear: we are talking about sacrilege:

This can happen first of all by the administration or reception of the sacraments (or in the case of the Holy Eucharist by celebration) in the state of mortal sin, **as also by advertently doing any of those things invalidly **[emphasis added]. Indeed deliberate and notable irreverence towards the Holy Eucharist is reputed the worst of all sacrileges.

*Sacrilege. Catholic Encyclopedia. *newadvent.org/cathen/13321a.htm

Look, here’s what it comes down to: you can feel free to allow the Precious Body and Blood of our Lord be profaned but I refuse to sit idle when this sort of thing occurs; it is this very sort of apathy and inaction that allows other evils such as abortion to spread and be accepted in our world.

 

[JPUSC]

1. I’m not talking about mortal sin, I am talking about sacrilege.
2. You’re comparing a homeless person to a mouse? Hmm . . .

Even if a protestant doesn’t have the full knowledge of the act, it is placing his/her soul in a perilous state. We receive the Eucharist because it has an actual effect on our souls in reality. The fact that one doesn’t acknowledge this reality doesn’t change the reality; believer or not, it is effectual.

Throughout scripture, the Lord never fails to punish sacrilege - even Christ became outraged when he witnessed this in the temple. And just to be clear: we are talking about sacrilege:

Look, here’s what it comes down to: you can feel free to allow the Precious Body and Blood of our Lord be profaned but I refuse to sit idle when this sort of thing occurs; it is this very sort of apathy and inaction that allows other evils such as abortion to spread and be accepted in our world.

From all we know, the man did not intend to profane the Eucharist. It’s not like he stole some consecrated hosts and desecrated them like some disrespectful troublemakers posting videos on the internet. Nobody knows the man’s true intentions. If we were absolutely certain that the man was malicious, then we can call it sacrilege.

If you want to talk about the Eucharist being profaned, then the real ones committing scandal are all those “Catholic” politicians who receive Communion when they shouldn’t be doing so. They are fully aware of what they’re doing and I don’t see any bishops punishing them for their sacrileges. As the confession lines are short in many parishes, I also doubt a lot of people are in a state of grace when almost everybody goes up to receive Communion. I don’t see them being judged.

And no, of course I’m not comparing the man to a mouse - it was just an example.

I don’t think the man should be escorted out. Churches exist as a refuge for all; the man has the right to be in God’s house. If he indeed has a disorder, then the priest should try to find help for him and not simply kick him out as has been recommended. Life is hard. The Church should be the one place you can go to find hope and solace.

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/pictures/divine_mercy4.jpg

*Tell aching mankind to snuggle close to My merciful Heart, and I will fill it with peace.

Let the weak, sinful soul have no fear to approach Me, for even if it had more sins than there are grains of sand in the world, all would be drowned in the unmeasurable depths of My mercy.

I am more generous toward sinners than toward the just. It was for their sake that I came down from heaven; it was for their sake that My Blood was spilled. Let them not fear to approach Me; they are most in need of My mercy.

The loss of each soul plunges Me into mortal sadness. You always console Me when you pray for sinners. The prayer most pleasing to Me is prayer for the conversion of sinners. Know, My daughter, that this prayer is always heard and answered.

[Let] the greatest sinners place their trust in My mercy. They have the right before others to trust in the abyss of My mercy. My daughter, write about My mercy towards tormented souls. Souls that make an appeal to My mercy delight Me. To such souls I grant even more graces than they ask. I cannot punish even the greatest sinner if he makes an appeal to My compassion, but on the contrary, I justify him in My unfathomable and inscrutable mercy. Write: before I come as a just Judge, I first open wide the door of My mercy. He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice…" *

Our Lord to St. Faustina.

 

[FrCorey]

and Jesus probully was smiling down from above the whole time.
He Might have even sent this person to test you guys. who knows.

 

[jkarp]

From all we know, the man did not intend to profane the Eucharist. It’s not like he stole some consecrated hosts and desecrated them like some disrespectful troublemakers posting videos on the internet. Nobody knows the man’s true intentions. If we were absolutely certain that the man was malicious, then we can call it sacrilege.

Intended or not, he did profane the Eucharist and we are called to defend it. I don’t think he should have been tackled or anything, but he could have (politely) been asked/encouraged to refrain.

If you want to talk about the Eucharist being profaned, then the real ones committing scandal are all those “Catholic” politicians who receive Communion when they shouldn’t be doing so. They are fully aware of what they’re doing and I don’t see any bishops punishing them for their sacrileges. As the confession lines are short in many parishes, I also doubt a lot of people are in a state of grace when almost everybody goes up to receive Communion. I don’t see them being judged.

Absolutely! This is equally as outrageous!

And no, of course I’m not comparing the man to a mouse - it was just an example.

I reread my post and I don’t think my statement quite came across as I intended it but we can’t compare a mouse (which possesses neither reason nor immortal soul) to a human being (who possesses both).

I don’t think the man should be escorted out. Churches exist as a refuge for all; the man has the right to be in God’s house. If he indeed has a disorder, then the priest should try to find help for him and not simply kick him out as has been recommended. Life is hard. The Church should be the one place you can go to find hope and comfort.

Absolutely, but he should not have been allowed to receive communion in very much the same way as all of the “Catholic” politicians you mentioned should not be allowed to receive the Blessed Sacrament.