Obstacles on the Road to Rome

[Sherlock]

The Iambic Pen:

Well, when I get back to the States, I’ll be at Fort Stewart, Georgia. The nearest city is Hinesville, GA, and the nearest large city is Savannah, GA.

Well, let’s put out an APB for an orthodox parish in that area!
The Iambic Pen:

So, is monogamy a discipline, rather than a doctrine?!

No, I’m sorry if I gave you that impression!! My point was that not all doctrines are explicitly found in the Bible, such as monogamy, etc., and that Protestants actually accept many Catholic doctrines without realizing where they come from. Then, if one of those doctrines is closely examined for a Scripture-only basis, then it’s possible that, as happened with Luther with monogamy, a deviant position such as polygamy can be defended.
The Iambic Pen:

Hmmhh…I can’t really think of any single Protestant ministers either (except for maybe a few young youth pastors, just starting in the ministry). I speak from personal experience, as my own father was a Protestant minister, and I was around other pastors all the time.

Just curious: did you ever hear either your father or the other ministers you were around ever offer an explanation for the lack of celibacy in Protestantism, despite its recommendation from Jesus and Paul?
The Iambic Pen:

Yes, I may have been playing the “ignorant Protestant” part a bit much at the time, as I identified the poster as a “rad trad” right off. Still, I had thought the Catechism was considered to be absolutely accurate, so I was surprised to find it was not considered an infallible document.!

This is a bit tricky: the Catechism contains infallible teaching, but a book—a thing—is not really properly thought of as “infallible”. “Fallible” and “infallible” are best used for describing something—man—that is capable of being those things. A book isn’t capable of anything. But anyway, as I was saying, the Catechism contains some infallible teaching about doctrine. It also contains teaching about matters of Church discipline. It also contains recommendations. What it does—and does very well—is to present Church teaching in as full a way as possible. It’s not an exact listing of Church “rules”—that would be found in canon law. It’s not a “how to” book on devotions—though it does point out the "why’ of such devotions.
The Iambic Pen:

In regard to “Obstacles on the Road to Rome,” I must admit that my family is a bit of an obstacle. This is not to say that my fear of conflict will keep me from the truth, as I will do God’s will regardless of my family’s opinions. Still, it is something about which I request your prayers. They haven’t done the research I have, and they are a bit mystified at my sudden interest in Catholicism. I’ve tried to explain the whole process that has led me to this point, but confusion remains. Just the other day, I got an e-mail from my mother, and she was wondering what problems I had with my faith that would lead me to want to leave it. I tried explaining that I wasn’t intending to leave anything, but rather to grow in my faith, but I’m not sure how effective my explanation was. At any rate, my family isn’t hostile, they just don’t understand. As my mother said, she knows I love God, she knows I have faith in Him, and she knows I desire to know the truth. She just believes my possible choice of Catholicism is a wrong choice, and she says she does not feel peace about it. So, please pray for me about this, and pray for my family as well. I must say, at no point in my life did I ever think I would someday have religious differences with my entire family…

God Bless!

You’re in my prayers…you mentioned that your father was a minister, so I can imagine this is difficult for your parents.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

E.E.N.S.:

I have been and will continue to pray for you, brother.

Thanks!

sententia:

I think it may be beneficial for you to actually go and talk to a priest about this- what better than the horses mouth, so to speak! It isn’t like we spring it on these guys, they are aware throughout dicernment and formation that if God is calling them to the Latin rite, then he will help them with the call them to celibacy as well. Anyway, I think you might enjoy speaking to a priest about it.

I would certainly love to talk to a priest, about this and other issues. Unfortunately, at the moment I’m deployed and the only priest around just stops by our camp (FOB) on Sunday for Mass.

Matt16_18:

The requirement of celibacy for priests is a church discipline for the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, a discipline that can be dispensed with, as in the case of a married Anglican priest that converts to the Catholic Church. The Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church never have had a discipline whereby only celibate men can be priests. There have always been married priests within the Catholic Church!

So, if someone felt called to the priesthood and marriage, would being ordained in the Eastern Rites be acceptable, or do the Eastern Rites apply specifically for people from that heritage?

Sherlock:

No, I’m sorry if I gave you that impression!! My point was that not all doctrines are explicitly found in the Bible, such as monogamy, etc., and that Protestants actually accept many Catholic doctrines without realizing where they come from. Then, if one of those doctrines is closely examined for a Scripture-only basis, then it’s possible that, as happened with Luther with monogamy, a deviant position such as polygamy can be defended.

That makes sense. At any rate, I’m certainly not trying to defend polygamy. Simple reason can show that it’s not a good system.

Just curious: did you ever hear either your father or the other ministers you were around ever offer an explanation for the lack of celibacy in Protestantism, despite its recommendation from Jesus and Paul?

Well, I had heard people talk about how a single person could be more focused on God, but the overall attitude seemed to be that being married helped a man be a better pastor. I guess maybe this is because his wife could support him in his ministry. Plus, there were verses like these they would sometimes refer to (or something similar, anyway):

Genesis 2:18
The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”

This could suggest that men (including pastors) are better off married.

1 Corinthians 9:5
Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas ?

This could suggest that since the apostles were married, there is no real reason to abstain from it.

At any rate, I can see the advantages to a celibate clergy, so I’m certainly not attacking the practice. That being said, I don’t think it’s entirely irrational for Protestants to have married ministers.

You’re in my prayers…you mentioned that your father was a minister, so I can imagine this is difficult for your parents.

Well, the more I explain it, the more they understand. My mother just e-mailed me today, and she was much more understanding. She mentioned that verse about how you should always be prepared to give anyone a reason for the hope that you have (1 Peter 3:15), and she knew that this is what I am trying to do. I always thought of myself as fairly knowledgeable when it came to Christianity and the Bible, but it is only recently that I discovered just how little I really know. It was a bit humbling really, but I needed it.

Thanks for your prayers! God Bless!

 

[Matt16_18]

The Iambic Pen:

if someone felt called to the priesthood and marriage, would being ordained in the Eastern Rites be acceptable, or do the Eastern Rites apply specifically for people from that heritage?

The Eastern Rites share the same great commission with all other Catholics – “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations …” (Matt. 28:19). If the members of the Eastern Rites are not actively seeking converts outside of their community, they are failing in the mission that Christ has given to them. A Protestant seeking full communion with an Eastern Rite Church should never be denied the Sacraments of Initiation (unless, of course, he won’t accept all the infallible teachings of the Catholic Church).

That said, no one has the right to be a priest. If a married Protestant felt a calling to serve as a priest in an Eastern Rite Church, the bishops of that Rite would have to discern the validity of the calling.

 

[Sherlock]

The Iambic Pen:

So, if someone felt called to the priesthood and marriage, would being ordained in the Eastern Rites be acceptable, or do the Eastern Rites apply specifically for people from that heritage?

My understanding is that the Eastern Rites are acceptable, regardless of anyone’s ethnic heritage.
The Iambic Pen:

Well, I had heard people talk about how a single person could be more focused on God, but the overall attitude seemed to be that being married helped a man be a better pastor. I guess maybe this is because his wife could support him in his ministry. Plus, there were verses like these they would sometimes refer to (or something similar, anyway):
This could suggest that men (including pastors) are better off married.

This is contrary to Paul’s suggestion, as he clearly suggests that celibacy is the better route. But remember: this is a discipline, not a doctrine. There’s no reason to beat up the Catholic Church on this topic, and I think that the Church is wise in her ways about this.
The Iambic Pen:

This could suggest that since the apostles were married, there is no real reason to abstain from it.
At any rate, I can see the advantages to a celibate clergy, so I’m certainly not attacking the practice. That being said, I don’t think it’s entirely irrational for Protestants to have married ministers.

You’re certainly right here: it’s not at all irrational for Protestants, and Catholics, to have a married priesthood. And that’s what we have in Catholicism. What I don’t understand is the almost total lack of celibacy in Protestant ministry. Given the strong recommendation in Scripture, isn’t that lack a bit irrational?
The Iambic Pen:

Well, the more I explain it, the more they understand. My mother just e-mailed me today, and she was much more understanding. She mentioned that verse about how you should always be prepared to give anyone a reason for the hope that you have (1 Peter 3:15), and she knew that this is what I am trying to do. I always thought of myself as fairly knowledgeable when it came to Christianity and the Bible, but it is only recently that I discovered just how little I really know. It was a bit humbling really, but I needed it.Thanks for your prayers! God Bless!

Iambic Pen, may God bless you and keep you in His hands. Reading your posts makes me so appreciative of God’s gift’s to me, a sinner. You are struggling honestly with questions that I, as a cradle Catholic, didn’t bother with and so I left the Church for a period of time. I can’t tell you how inspiring and humbling it is for me to see your efforts in seeking the truth. When you write about your family background, I realize that the sacrifice you are making ( a sacrifice that I have never had to make), is truly an amazing work of God. God bless…

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

Sherlock:

You’re certainly right here: it’s not at all irrational for Protestants, and Catholics, to have a married priesthood. And that’s what we have in Catholicism. What I don’t understand is the almost total lack of celibacy in Protestant ministry. Given the strong recommendation in Scripture, isn’t that lack a bit irrational?

I suppose the lack is a bit irrational. I guess I’m beginning to see that, in many ways, Evangelical Protestantism is “Christianity lite.” The theology of Evangelicalism is based on a few verses, and most of the rest is ignored. This is not to say the rest isn’t believed, as the innerancy of the Bible is a definite Evangelical belief, but small parts of the Bible are focused on, at the expense of the rest.

Iambic Pen, may God bless you and keep you in His hands. Reading your posts makes me so appreciative of God’s gift’s to me, a sinner. You are struggling honestly with questions that I, as a cradle Catholic, didn’t bother with and so I left the Church for a period of time. I can’t tell you how inspiring and humbling it is for me to see your efforts in seeking the truth. When you write about your family background, I realize that the sacrifice you are making ( a sacrifice that I have never had to make), is truly an amazing work of God. God bless…

Thanks! I must admit it still is a struggle, but I believe God is guiding me through it all. This has been a very educational time. Thanks to you and everyone here for all the help and answers!

God Bless!

 

[CARose]

Know that while I haven’t been on-line much lately, hence my infrequent additions to your thread, I occationally get caught up, and continue to keep you and your progress towards the church in my prayers.

God Bless,

CARose