Occam's Razor and God

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Well, by definition of a thing coming “into” being, one is made aware of its cause.
Doh, I said something pretty silly, didn’t I. Scratch that last thing that I said.

Maybe what I should have said was that I have no problem with something “uncaused” as long as it has an explanation. What I’m thinking of is some popular physics notion that matter spontaneously “pops into existence” in space (though my breath isn’t held).
 
Occam’s Razor has often been used to cut God out of the scientific puzzles. But abiogenesis is simply and best explained by intelligent design. One could object that a designer has been assigned that is not necessary, because abiogenesis could have happened by accident. The odds of that are so nearly impossible that chance is not the simplest or most preferable explanation. Or as Einstein put it, “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.”

“My religiosity consists of a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God.” Albert Einstein
 
Occam’s Razor has often been used to cut God out of the scientific puzzles. But abiogenesis is simply and best explained by intelligent design.
It may be the case that intelligent design is the best explanation, but it isn’t a “scientific explanation.”

Am i annoying you yet?😉

You would be better of making a case to show that scientific explanations are not the only good or possible explanations in regards to existence.
 
Define “theism” then!
Theism is belief in a personal, rational Creator. That is why, unlike atheism, it is not faced with the problem of explaining how persons are produced by impersonal things. Admittedly we cannot understand how the Creator exists but that is hardly surprising. How can we with our finite intelligences comprehend Ultimate Reality? We cannot but we do know is that to be a person is the highest form of existence of which we are aware. So it makes more sense to attribute our existence to a Person rather than impersonal particles.
Things do appear out of the blue sometimes.
Hypothetically, but even if they do, that hardly demonstrates that the entire universe has emerged from a void.
The magnificence of nature is subjective, and so is the reason for its magnificence (I agree that it’s magnificent though!).
What causes you to believe it is magnificent if it is not objectively magnificent? Are you misguided? 🙂
Saying that “There is sufficient order to sustain a rational existence.” does not mean that order has a creator though.
To what else do you attribute order?
Anyway, my main point was that I think using Occam’s Razor is fine in argument if there is enough evidence to agree on what that simple solution would be, and I don’t think that is the case with creation.
So whenever there is disagreement Occam’s Razor is useless even though one explanation is superior to another when judged by criteria such as adequacy, intelligibility and fertility? In such a situation it can add to the cogency of the explanation.
If only part of the group is using Occam’s razor, is that really a fair assessment, or are they just using it as proof of their own beliefs that they had prior to using Occam’s Razor?
Occam’s Razor is not used at the outset of an investigation but only to decide which explanation is simpler - regardless of any assumptions. Beliefs held at the outset are not necessarily false…
 
Theism is belief in a personal, rational Creator. That is why, unlike atheism, it is not faced with the problem of explaining how persons are produced by impersonal things. Admittedly we cannot understand how the Creator exists but that is hardly surprising. How can we with our finite intelligences comprehend Ultimate Reality? We cannot but we do know is that to be a person is the highest form of existence of which we are aware. So it makes more sense to attribute our existence to a Person rather than impersonal particles.

Hypothetically, but even if they do, that hardly demonstrates that the entire universe has emerged from a void.

What causes you to believe it is magnificent if it is not objectively magnificent? Are you misguided? 🙂

To what else do you attribute order?

So whenever there is disagreement Occam’s Razor is useless even though one explanation is superior to another when judged by criteria such as adequacy, intelligibility and fertility? In such a situation it can add to the cogency of the explanation.

Occam’s Razor is not used at the outset of an investigation but only to decide which explanation is simpler - regardless of any assumptions. Beliefs held at the outset are not necessarily false…
I suppose the big difference is that you see the “person” as non-physical, while I do not. But that is just a difference in our views, so I understand your point at least.

I find it magnificent because it’s subjective… It’s my opinion. Children growing up on Somalia probably do not have the same view.

Things of incredible order can be natural… examples include the increadible flatness of the salt flats, the sailing stones, ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_stones ), the parallel lines in the rock from the mid-Atlantic ridge, the incredible northern lights, a sun that steadily burns without major fluctuations… these things are ordered and incredibly complex. Order and complexity can come from nature, just as disorder can. This does not violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics because it’s not a closed system, the solar system as a whole is gaining entropy (in case you were going to ask).

Occam’s razor is used to try and convince the other party… you already believe what you’re saying. It is appealing to their logic, in the hope that they will recognise that your theory is more probably because it is more simple. In the case where neither side will recognise that the other’s is more simple, it plays no role beyond confirmation of one’s own beliefs.
 
MindOverMatter

It may be the case that intelligent design is the best explanation, but it isn’t a “scientific explanation.”

Neither is abiogenesis by chance.

When you have two propositions and only two propositions that contradict each other, you affirm the one that seems the more likely. This is a variation of Occam’s Razor, but Einstein would approve. You cut out the one that seems most unlikely … which mathematics (the foundation of all science) tells us is abiogenesis by pure chance. Mathematics is certainly not on the side of a high probability that abiogenesis occurred by chance, except for the atheist, who believes intelligent design to be impossible (though he sees it around him and practices it all day every day himself). It is a case of prejudice mucking up the math.
 
I suppose the big difference is that you see the “person” as non-physical, while I do not.
Hence the problems you face in explaining all the most important aspects of reality - including yourself. 🙂
Do you regard everything as physical? And why have you come to that conclusion? Is the truth physical?
I find it magnificent because it’s subjective… It’s my opinion. Children growing up on Somalia probably do not have the same view.
Human misery is unrelated to the magnificence of nature. The children growing up in Somalia are suffering and dying on account of human beings.
Order and complexity can come from nature, just as disorder can.
The question is whether all order and complexity have natural explanations. And whether the order necessary to sustain rational existence is adequately explained by non-rational forces.
Occam’s razor is used to try and convince the other party…
OC is used to find the best explanation regardless of what we believe. OC is an objective criterion that takes no heed of our desires and preferences. Whether we like it or not, one entity is more economical than many and one explanation is superior to another if it is more economical, adequate, intelligible and fertile.
 
I think that (scientifically speaking) admitting ignorance is the better attitude, rather than asserting a God without proper evidence. For in admitting ignorance one does not make excessive or unsubstantiated claims. That is where Ockham is relevant.

If one believes in a “supreme being” then what qualities would it minimally have? If it was simply the cause of the material universe we could ask “what caused the supreme being?”. If the response is to be “it is uncaused” then why can the material universe not simply be uncaused (cf. the fallacy of “double standards”)?
 
If one believes in a “supreme being” then what qualities would it minimally have? If it was simply the cause of the material universe we could ask “what caused the supreme being?”. If the response is to be “it is uncaused” then why can the material universe not simply be uncaused (cf. the fallacy of “double standards”)?
Because we observe change in the universe that needs to be explained by the unchanging.
 
LukeS

If one believes in a “supreme being” then what qualities would it minimally have? If it was simply the cause of the material universe we could ask “what caused the supreme being?”. If the response is to be “it is uncaused” then why can the material universe not simply be uncaused (cf. the fallacy of “double standards”)?

According to Einstein, the minimal quality such a God would have is the power to design and to create. The objection you raise is the old one (often trotted out by Bertrand Russell and his ilk) that never took into account the Big Bang. We know now that the universe *was *caused. It did not cause itself. The mystery of its causation will be an eternal mystery for science. It is no mystery at all for religion.

Moreover, God, being the creator of the principle of causality, cannot be subject to something He created. That is why God must be uncaused, there being no alternative to caused or uncaused.

At some points, Religion and Science may intersect. Einstein thought so, and he was not a religious Jew or a Christian. But he saw no other way to explain the apparent existence of design throughout the universe, a principle that is far more evident to physicists than to biologists, according to some observers.
 
Occam’s Razor is a little silly to apply to the discussion of theism vs. atheism. (Please note here that I am not saying Christianity vs. atheism. I intentionally said theism vs. atheism, because it is silly to assume someone will accept Jesus is God without first accepting there is a God.) There are also a number of problems with this discussion. For the most part, I’m going to leave the problems with this discussion alone, except for one. STOP CITING WIKIPEDIA AS A SOURCE!!! If you cannot find a better source for your information than wikipedia, then your information should be assumed incorrect. Okay, now that the teacher in me is done screaming I’ll talk about why Occam’s Razor is silly in this discussion.

The first reason that Occam’s Razor is silly in this discussion is because you are misquoting it. Occam’s Razor states, “Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily.”. Issac Newton stated it as, “We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances.” Many scientists implement it by stating, “when you have two competing theories that make exactly the same predictions, the simpler one is the better.” So, Occam’s Razor is not that the simplest explanation is usually correct, but rather gets into multiplying entities. Now, entity is a necessarily vague word. This word is used because an entity can be anything: causes, beings, energies, properties, etc. So in applying Occam’s Razor we need to minimize the number of entities we utilize. Possibly an example is in order here.

Let’s say that I have two unusual events happening in the same place at the same time. Occam’ Razor tells me that these events are probably related, because if they are related then I only need one predecessory cause instead of multiple predecessory causes. Thus the number of entities, in this case unobserved causes, is minimized. However, Occam’s Razor tells me nothing about how they are connected or what that predecessory cause is.

Okay, got that? I want to minimize the number of entities. If I apply Occam’s Razor to a proof of atheism I get the following. The Universe has no creator, it’s creation is a spontaneous anomaly, it is a chemical reaction with no catalyst. Thus there is exactly one entity added to the equation that is the entity that something can come happen without a cause. If I apply Occam’s Razor to a proof of God I get the following. The Universe must have had a creator, because everything has a creator. But, what created this creator: nothing. So still, something exists without a cause. Therefore I have still introduced only one entity, and IT’S THE SAME ENTITY. I have simply inserted it at a different place.

If you are going to argue that theism introduces two entities, you are incorrect. Saying something must have done this because the law tells us it must have been done is not inserting an entity it is actually avoiding the insertion of an entity. For example if I see a bullet hole in a street sign, and I say that at some point, some person shot a gun and the bullet went through this sign. I have not multiplied the entities, because natural law dictates the existence of those entities from the observed result. On the other hand, if I observe the hole and say, wow there’s a wizard around here making spontaneous bullet holes in signs then I have added the entity of magic.

Thus Occam’s Razor cannot be used as a logical proof for, or against, the existence of God.

As proof, I would like to submit exhibit A. William of Occam himself stated that this axiom is proof that God’s existence cannot be deduced by reason alone. Anyone who has read the documents from Vatican I will know that this did not win him any friends in Rome.

math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/occam.html

Oh, an just so we’re all on the same page, I’m Catholic.
 
I think that (scientifically speaking) admitting ignorance is the better attitude, rather than asserting a God without proper evidence. For in admitting ignorance one does not make excessive or unsubstantiated claims. That is where Ockham is relevant.

If one believes in a “supreme being” then what qualities would it minimally have? If it was simply the cause of the material universe we could ask “what caused the supreme being?”. If the response is to be “it is uncaused” then why can the material universe not simply be uncaused (cf. the fallacy of “double standards”)?
You are correct. Agnosticism (I don’t know if a God exists) adds the least number of entities to the scenario. Atheists disavow the existence of God because they lack proof. Theists acknowledge the existence of a God without proof. In either event, you are believing something without proof. Atheists believe there is no God, without proof of His nonexistence. Theists believe there is a God, without proof of His existence. They both take something on faith.
 
I think that (scientifically speaking) admitting ignorance is the better attitude, rather than asserting a God without proper evidence. For in admitting ignorance one does not make excessive or unsubstantiated claims. That is where Ockham is relevant.

But the argument from ignorance proves nothing, and therefore cannot be considered a simple explanation nor even a candidate for Occam’s Razor.

What cannot be ascertained by science is whether or not God exists. What can be ascertained by science is whether the universe always existed (it did not), and whether it gives all the appearance of being designed (it does). From these two observations we may logically (not scientifically) infer that the simplest explanation is that some Being with power and intelligence created the universe. The only other alternative is that the universe designed and created itself … palpably absurd. Given the simpler and more logical explanation consistent with our observations of the universe, we may infer as much.

Aquinas all over (with the Big Bang thrown in). 🍿
 
Agnosticism (I don’t know if a God exists) adds the least number of entities to the scenario.
Agnosticism is a theoretical position that is impossible to maintain in practice. You either live as if God doesn’t exist or as if God does exist. Sartre, an atheist, made the point that we cannot remain uncommitted. Even to refrain from making a decision is to make a decision that affects your life in some way!
 
Agnosticism is a theoretical position that is impossible to maintain in practice. You either live as if God doesn’t exist or as if God does exist. Sartre, an atheist, made the point that we cannot remain uncommitted. Even to refrain from making a decision is to make a decision that affects your life in some way!
True, but that doesn’t mean the decision is in favor of one side or the other. Agnosticism is a recognition that the typical argument ridiculous and that no one really knows for sure.
 
True, but that doesn’t mean the decision is in favor of one side or the other. Agnosticism is a recognition that the typical argument ridiculous and that no one really knows for sure.
Uncertainty should not be equated with being ridiculous unless you give some justification for doing so. Present “the typical argument” so that we can examine it. In the meantime I would say it is extremely unlikely that the evidence is perfectly balanced… 😉
 
You are correct. Agnosticism (I don’t know if a God exists) adds the least number of entities to the scenario. Atheists disavow the existence of God because they lack proof. Theists acknowledge the existence of a God without proof. In either event, you are believing something without proof. Atheists believe there is no God, without proof of His nonexistence. Theists believe there is a God, without proof of His existence. They both take something on faith.
Yet you are talking about strong atheists (or “positive atheists”) who believe in no god. Atheism (the other and probably original version) is simply a lack of belief in God. So, agnostics are not a third party. They either believe or lack belief (are atheist or theist). So, the old issue of economty is not really resolved by agnosticism after all.
 
Science cannot tell us how to live, choose between good and evil or establish our ultimate goals and priorities It tells us nothing about the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity or the right to life or the nature of love. Ignorance is no basis for a rational existence. Whether we like it or not we have to make decisions about what we are, why we exist and what is our destiny.
I agree tith that my friend.Scientifically speaking there is no objective purpose, just human interpretation and ambition.
It is not an excessive claim that we need a rational explanation of our rationality and our existence.
Science seems to be eventually getting there with evolutionary neurology, and to a certain extent, cosmology and astrobiology.
The Supreme Being could not be inferior to us with regard to our creativity, power of reason, knowledge of good and evil, recognition of justice, transcendence of our environment, appreciation of beauty and capacity for love… Infinitely greater…
That seems to be the conclusion, my friend, but where is the rest of the argument?
Then you would have an infinite regress. Hardly satisfactory.🙂
Well is God not “Infinitely greater”?:rolleyes:
Mind has an explanatory ultimacy that matter does not.
I look forward to reading the explanation of that statement.
The expression “The buck stops here!” conveys that very neatly. 👍
Now, of only scientists spoke like that, eh? smiles IMO asking science to prove Gods existence is like asking a plumber to paint the ceiling.
 
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