Occupy Wall Street?

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we have hardly any of that anymore actually.

and the question of how to finance campaigns is a good one. there are a variety of solutions out there which could be constructively debated.

i for one don’t currently have any problem with government funded campaigns - if - (and only if) it means the public is finally in control of said government…which removing bribery from government should effectively accomplish if done right.

ensuring a fair and bribery-free platform for democratic competition could easily be considered a function of public responsibility.

you wouldn’t be funding ideas you disagree with, you’d be funding an even platform for all ideas in a democracy to be presented and expressed (thus ensuring the ability for your own to have voice)
No-I would be forced to fund speech I may very well find repulsive. I dont think it is any of the Goverments business how i spend my money. if I want to give money to a canidate it should be of no ones concern other than mine and the canidates
 
No-I would be forced to fund speech I may very well find repulsive. I dont think it is any of the Goverments business how i spend my money. if I want to give money to a canidate it should be of no ones concern other than mine and the canidates
I have to agree. If your worried about the interests of poor people why not become involved in creating a PAC specifically geared towards that purpose? The un-born can’t raise money themselves yet you still have pro-life groups that work to give them a voice. If you don’t believe the poor have a voice, give them a voice and find like-minded people that feel the same.
 
I support the Occupy Wall Street people. I think their message has been kicked and stomped for partisan ideological purposes.

Read just about anything by Kevin Phillips. You owe it to yourself to get versed on the slimy, greasy connection between finance and government.

HEck, I say this and Captain America (me), is big believer in the value of capitalism. It’s CRONY CAPITALISM that ruins capitalism for everybody else. . . particularly when the Banksters grease the wheels of a democratic government in order to avoid fair market structures.
 
I support the Occupy Wall Street people. I think their message has been kicked and stomped for partisan ideological purposes.

Read just about anything by Kevin Phillips. You owe it to yourself to get versed on the slimy, greasy connection between finance and government.

HEck, I say this and Captain America (me), is big believer in the value of capitalism. It’s CRONY CAPITALISM that ruins capitalism for everybody else. . . particularly when the Banksters grease the wheels of a democratic government in order to avoid fair market structures.
What is their message? What is their proposed solution?
 
No-I would be forced to fund speech I may very well find repulsive. I dont think it is any of the Goverments business how i spend my money. if I want to give money to a canidate it should be of no ones concern other than mine and the canidates
that’s like saying you’re against funding roads because it forces you to help people get to abortion clinics
 
I support the Occupy Wall Street people. I think their message has been kicked and stomped for partisan ideological purposes.

Read just about anything by Kevin Phillips. You owe it to yourself to get versed on the slimy, greasy connection between finance and government.

HEck, I say this and Captain America (me), is big believer in the value of capitalism. It’s CRONY CAPITALISM that ruins capitalism for everybody else. . . particularly when the Banksters grease the wheels of a democratic government in order to avoid fair market structures.
If they were against crony capitalism in general they would be marching in many other places besides financial institutions. This is something they have control of outside of the people who have possibly hijacked the movement. None of them apparently care to protest right outside of Washington D.C where campaign funding policy is made, and where all the recipients of that funding reside. This alone should make you wary of the movement and make you question how many honest people are down there without a far-left agenda.
 
that’s like saying you’re against funding roads because it forces you to help people get to abortion clinics
No its not-it is saying it is a violation of my free speech rights to be forced to fund speech I find repugnant. I am always troubled how willing people are to give up their freedoms in the name of “fairness”
 
that’s like saying you’re against funding roads because it forces you to help people get to abortion clinics
Roads have lots of other uses, and getting to abortion clinics is far from a primary use of roads haha. What other purpose does financing someone to run for office have other than to help them get their viewpoint out there? Never mind if this viewpoint spits in the face of all of my morals, and they use the stage to be a proponent of committing acts I find to be on par with murder.
 
Whether you agree with the growing protest movement in America (and the world) or not, they will likely continue and get even bigger.

Some unpleasant facts about our world (Don’t believe me? Then you probably haven’t researched it enough):
  1. We have run out of cheap oil. Believe it. That’s what peak oil is about, not running out of oil but rather not being able to afford the oil.
  2. Our economies are completely dependent on cheap oil and alternatives would take something like 20 years for a healthy economy to develop and fully implement. Talk about a major catch-22.
  3. A lack of cheap energy is THE root cause of our current economic troubles. Yes there is too much debt, but if the economy was growing that wouldn’t be a problem. The economy can’t grow without cheap oil…see #2.
  4. There is no economic “work-around” or “fix” for this. The economy is not a problem to be solved at this point in the game, it’s terminally broken. Without cheap oil, it’s dead. Case in point: Europe. They’ve been in trouble for a year and a half and are no closer to any “solution”…in fact it gets worse by the day. Unfortunately, Europe is done. The U.S. and the rest of the world will follow.
  5. When our economies go south, people will get angry. This is natural, and the better your lifestyle before the upcoming collapse, the further you have to fall and the more angry you are likely to be. America and Europe will likely become more violent than what we saw in the Mid East this spring because we have more material wealth to lose.
Say a prayer for our world…we’re going to need it very soon.

Check out www.chrismartenson.com and www.zerohedge.com if you want to REALLY understand what this is all about.
 
  1. A lack of cheap energy is THE root cause of our current economic troubles. Yes there is too much debt, but if the economy was growing that wouldn’t be a problem. The economy can’t grow without cheap oil…see #2.
I’m sorry but this is absurd. Whether the economy is growing or not it is stupid to get ourselves in the debt we are in. If peak oil is truly here that will have its affect, but to blame the current economic crisis on that is crazy. The debt is the obvious problem, as well as the fact that our future debt will be even higher with current policy. Oil prices are following the economic trends right now not leading them. When we get some good economic news and the market gets a little boost, oil prices go up. When we get bad news and the market gets hit prices go down. Whether oil is a problem or not, it is overshadowed by the debt and current policies that track us putting ourselves into even further debt.
 
I’m sorry but this is absurd. Whether the economy is growing or not it is stupid to get ourselves in the debt we are in. If peak oil is truly here that will have its affect, but to blame the current economic crisis on that is crazy. The debt is the obvious problem, as well as the fact that our future debt will be even higher with current policy. Oil prices are following the economic trends right now not leading them. When we get some good economic news and the market gets a little boost, oil prices go up. When we get bad news and the market gets hit prices go down. Whether oil is a problem or not, it is overshadowed by the debt and current policies that track us putting ourselves into even further debt.
Yep, exactly the reaction I expected. As you say, when we get good news oil prices go up, and bad news causes prices to fall. So what does that tell you? It tells me that we are in a vicious cycle where economic growth will be stifled by rising oil prices each and every time those “green shoots” appear. When oil gets too expensive, the growth ends and the economy turns down. It’s called the “Bumpy Plateau” or the “Undulating Plateau”. Google it. And to say that “oil prices are following the economic trends not leading them” is forgetting your history. Remember the summer of '08? Oil spiked to $147 a barrel BEFORE Lehman defaulted, the market crashed, we bailed out the banks, etc… $4 gas was what pushed millions of Americans from living paycheck-to-paycheck into defaulting on their unaffordable mortgages. And cast your mind back to how oil spiked dramatically earlier this year, just as most economists were praising the economic “recovery” and the success of QE2. Of course there wasn’t a real recovery, just another bubble in stocks and commodities, but that oil spike…well that killed the “recovery”, and now we’re seeing the effects. Oil leads, the markets and the world economy follows.

And I didn’t mean to imply that the amount of debt we’re seeing right now isn’t a problem - because it definitely is. What I meant is that if we had an unlimited supply of cheap oil, then the economy could continue to grow exponentially like it has for the past 100 years (with a noticeably increased pace starting in the mid '80s) and that economic growth would be enough to keep up with the debt growth (also exponential). That’s the way it has always worked because oil has always been pretty darn cheap…until now. I’m sure you realize that we don’t have - never had - unlimited supplies of cheap oil. We live on a finite planet. There’s still plenty of oil in the ground, but now we need to go to the bottom of the ocean or the arctic to keep up with demand. So yes, debt is the immediate, noticeable problem…but it’s a lack of oil, and therefore growth, that really makes it a problem. If we had cheap oil and growth, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

Don’t worry too much about the policy stuff either…the problem isn’t really fixable at this point - at least not without a serious reduction in our standard of living - no matter who’s elected next year or which party controls Congress. Read the Hirsch Report. We’ve passed the point of no return and that will become more and more evident over the coming months and certainly by election time next year.

As I said, let’s all say a prayer for the world.
 
Yep, exactly the reaction I expected. As you say, when we get good news oil prices go up, and bad news causes prices to fall. So what does that tell you? It tells me that we are in a vicious cycle where economic growth will be stifled by rising oil prices each and every time those “green shoots” appear. When oil gets too expensive, the growth ends and the economy turns down. It’s called the “Bumpy Plateau” or the “Undulating Plateau”. Google it. And to say that “oil prices are following the economic trends not leading them” is forgetting your history. Remember the summer of '08? Oil spiked to $147 a barrel BEFORE Lehman defaulted, the market crashed, we bailed out the banks, etc… $4 gas was what pushed millions of Americans from living paycheck-to-paycheck into defaulting on their unaffordable mortgages. And cast your mind back to how oil spiked dramatically earlier this year, just as most economists were praising the economic “recovery” and the success of QE2. Of course there wasn’t a real recovery, just another bubble in stocks and commodities, but that oil spike…well that killed the “recovery”, and now we’re seeing the effects. Oil leads, the markets and the world economy follows.

Haha I’m sorry I’m not buying it. People did not get into mortgages because they had to pay $50 more a month, if even that much, to keep their car filled up with gas. That’s a problem that could be solved by getting rid of cable instead 😉 The credit problem started way before oil shot up, and people were making stupid decisions regardless of how much they were spending on gas.
 
Haha I’m sorry I’m not buying it. People did not get into mortgages because they had to pay $50 more a month, if even that much, to keep their car filled up with gas. That’s a problem that could be solved by getting rid of cable instead The credit problem started way before oil shot up, and people were making stupid decisions regardless of how much they were spending on gas.
I assume you meant to say “…people did not get into trouble with their mortgages…”? Yes, some did. You really give the average American a lot of credit for making good financial decisions, Nate. I’m sure there were plenty of people who missed a mortgage payment “just to get through the month”…precisely so they wouldn’t have to shut off the cable, and because they probably didn’t understand that it placed them in default. They probably didn’t know what default meant. You’re telling me that the same country which watches a show called “Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader” is full of people who understand financial contracts…please, Nate. MANY people skipped that mortgage payment and thought they would be allowed to make it up, with some penalty, the next month.

But the real kick in the pants was that rising gas prices in '08 hit small businesses hard, and they were forced to layoff some employees…at that point it’s not a question of paying the cable or the mortgage. Neither is getting paid. Cue economic contraction.

You don’t have to buy my explanation, I was just replying to your statements that debt was the root cause of the problem and that high oil prices don’t affect the economy. Those are both popular points of view, but I don’t think they hold up to analysis very well.
 
No its not-it is saying it is a violation of my free speech rights to be forced to fund speech I find repugnant. I am always troubled how willing people are to give up their freedoms in the name of “fairness”
“Safety” is also common as an excuse for sacrificing liberty.
 
Whether you agree with the growing protest movement in America (and the world) or not, they will likely continue and get even bigger.

Some unpleasant facts about our world (Don’t believe me? Then you probably haven’t researched it enough):
  1. We have run out of cheap oil. Believe it. That’s what peak oil is about, not running out of oil but rather not being able to afford the oil.
  2. Our economies are completely dependent on cheap oil and alternatives would take something like 20 years for a healthy economy to develop and fully implement. Talk about a major catch-22.
  3. A lack of cheap energy is THE root cause of our current economic troubles. Yes there is too much debt, but if the economy was growing that wouldn’t be a problem. The economy can’t grow without cheap oil…see #2.
  4. There is no economic “work-around” or “fix” for this. The economy is not a problem to be solved at this point in the game, it’s terminally broken. Without cheap oil, it’s dead. Case in point: Europe. They’ve been in trouble for a year and a half and are no closer to any “solution”…in fact it gets worse by the day. Unfortunately, Europe is done. The U.S. and the rest of the world will follow.
  5. When our economies go south, people will get angry. This is natural, and the better your lifestyle before the upcoming collapse, the further you have to fall and the more angry you are likely to be. America and Europe will likely become more violent than what we saw in the Mid East this spring because we have more material wealth to lose.
Say a prayer for our world…we’re going to need it very soon.

Check out www.chrismartenson.com and www.zerohedge.com if you want to REALLY understand what this is all about.
Actually, we are NOT out of “cheap oil”. [Actually, the more appropriate expression would be “cheap energy”.]

What HAS happened is that our own government has clamped down on energy development of cheap sources and instead is focusing on expensive sources.

North Dakota is now the third or fourth largest state in oil production … shale oil.

And inexpensive Pennsylvania shale natural gas is now providing a large proportion of the natural gas being used in the eastern United States.

AND that development is also providing good jobs for people. ALL of it by the private sector AND the companies are going out on their own and rebuilding the local roads to a higher standard and more quickly than the local DOT’s can do it.

This is just in the last couple of years.

Here is a web site with comprehensive information.

oilshalegas.com/marcellusshale.html and look along the left edge of that Home Page. It lists the other shale locations. AND new ones are being found all the time. Underneath the Bakken shale, for example. In England! In Israel! Off shore of Namibia. It’s being found all over the planet. And it’s new.

The OWS protesters make about as much sense as “Hope and Change” and “Yes We Can”. It may make you feel good to shout out sentiments like those … but just analyze them … they make no sense. Twinkies for the mind. A brief sugar high, but no value.

P.S.

[Alaska has also been found to have a LOT more oil and natural gas than anyone thought possible, but the Federal government has been taking the lead in inventing new and expensive roadblocks to the development of Alaskan oil.]
 
I assume you meant to say “…people did not get into trouble with their mortgages…”? Yes, some did. You really give the average American a lot of credit for making good financial decisions, Nate. I’m sure there were plenty of people who missed a mortgage payment “just to get through the month”…precisely so they wouldn’t have to shut off the cable, and because they probably didn’t understand that it placed them in default. They probably didn’t know what default meant. You’re telling me that the same country which watches a show called “Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader” is full of people who understand financial contracts…please, Nate. MANY people skipped that mortgage payment and thought they would be allowed to make it up, with some penalty, the next month.

But the real kick in the pants was that rising gas prices in '08 hit small businesses hard, and they were forced to layoff some employees…at that point it’s not a question of paying the cable or the mortgage. Neither is getting paid. Cue economic contraction.

You don’t have to buy my explanation, I was just replying to your statements that debt was the root cause of the problem and that high oil prices don’t affect the economy. Those are both popular points of view, but I don’t think they hold up to analysis very well.
What I am witnessing a LOT of is a set of misplaced priorities.

Which is more important? Paying your rent or keeping the cable?
 
Yep, exactly the reaction I expected. As you say, when we get good news oil prices go up, and bad news causes prices to fall. So what does that tell you? It tells me that we are in a vicious cycle where economic growth will be stifled by rising oil prices each and every time those “green shoots” appear. When oil gets too expensive, the growth ends and the economy turns down. It’s called the “Bumpy Plateau” or the “Undulating Plateau”. Google it. And to say that “oil prices are following the economic trends not leading them” is forgetting your history. Remember the summer of '08? Oil spiked to $147 a barrel BEFORE Lehman defaulted, the market crashed, we bailed out the banks, etc… $4 gas was what pushed millions of Americans from living paycheck-to-paycheck into defaulting on their unaffordable mortgages. And cast your mind back to how oil spiked dramatically earlier this year, just as most economists were praising the economic “recovery” and the success of QE2. Of course there wasn’t a real recovery, just another bubble in stocks and commodities, but that oil spike…well that killed the “recovery”, and now we’re seeing the effects. Oil leads, the markets and the world economy follows.

And I didn’t mean to imply that the amount of debt we’re seeing right now isn’t a problem - because it definitely is. What I meant is that if we had an unlimited supply of cheap oil, then the economy could continue to grow exponentially like it has for the past 100 years (with a noticeably increased pace starting in the mid '80s) and that economic growth would be enough to keep up with the debt growth (also exponential). That’s the way it has always worked because oil has always been pretty darn cheap…until now. I’m sure you realize that we don’t have - never had - unlimited supplies of cheap oil. We live on a finite planet. There’s still plenty of oil in the ground, but now we need to go to the bottom of the ocean or the arctic to keep up with demand. So yes, debt is the immediate, noticeable problem…but it’s a lack of oil, and therefore growth, that really makes it a problem. If we had cheap oil and growth, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

Don’t worry too much about the policy stuff either…the problem isn’t really fixable at this point - at least not without a serious reduction in our standard of living - no matter who’s elected next year or which party controls Congress. Read the Hirsch Report. We’ve passed the point of no return and that will become more and more evident over the coming months and certainly by election time next year.

As I said, let’s all say a prayer for the world.
Actually, the government and the mainstream media are in agreement with you, but the truth is not there.

Here is an interesting blog:

blackberrystocks.blogspot.com/

Visit up in North Dakota or to Towanda, Pennsylvania.

If you are willing to work, there are plenty of jobs and they are getting the oil and natural gas out to market as fast as they humanly can.

The debt crisis was caused by our very own government with the Community Redevelopment Act and with spending more money than the tax revenues could provide. And the crisis is severe.

But we can work our way out of it with the new and inexpensive and plentiful shale oil and shale natural gas sources. It is a gift from God and not a minute too soon.

AND all the government needs to do is keep government spending at no higher than tax revenues pour in.

AND stay out of the way of the new oil and gas developments. All of the individual states now have highly developed DEP’s; no need for the Federal EPA to step in and take over.
 
Actually, the government and the mainstream media are in agreement with you, but the truth is not there.

Here is an interesting blog:

blackberrystocks.blogspot.com/

Visit up in North Dakota or to Towanda, Pennsylvania.

If you are willing to work, there are plenty of jobs and they are getting the oil and natural gas out to market as fast as they humanly can.

The debt crisis was caused by our very own government with the Community Redevelopment Act and with spending more money than the tax revenues could provide. And the crisis is severe.

But we can work our way out of it with the new and inexpensive and plentiful shale oil and shale natural gas sources. It is a gift from God and not a minute too soon.

AND all the government needs to do is keep government spending at no higher than tax revenues pour in.

AND stay out of the way of the new oil and gas developments. All of the individual states now have highly developed DEP’s; no need for the Federal EPA to step in and take over.
Shale oil may be plentiful, but cheap? I thought maybe you were kidding until you kept posting it. Do you work for them or something? Shale oil is NOT cheap compared to conventional crude oil. Neither are the tar sands. Neither is getting crude from offshore or the arctic. Cheap is what we had for 100 years…you drill a hole on dry land and the oil flows out. That’s what our economy is dependent on, not shale.

From Wikipedia:

“According to a survey conducted by the RAND Corporation, the cost of producing a barrel of [shale] oil at a surface retorting complex in the United States (comprising a mine, retorting plant, upgrading plant, supporting utilities, and spent shale reclamation), would range between US$70–95 ($440–600/m3, adjusted to 2005 values). This estimate considers varying levels of kerogen quality and extraction efficiency. In order for the operation to be profitable, the price of crude oil would need to remain above these levels.”

That certainly doesn’t sound like a “cheap” solution to me. That’s not to say that it won’t continue, but at those prices it won’t make gas at the pump any cheaper.

And to your earlier point,** it’s not about cheap energy**. It’s just what I said, cheap oil. You need oil to power your car, or container ships or 18-wheelers. Without oil, nothing much will get transported. You can’t fill up your car with just any old “energy”, it has to be gasoline. Having plenty of coal or shale or natural gas won’t do you much good without cheap oil as well.

Google “liquid fuel crisis”.
 
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