Occupy Wall Street?

[Jonatello]

A wail by well fed, , well educated ,disaffected middle to upper class youth about how unfair life is. It serves no purpose other than than give them an exaggerated feeling of importance, which is no surprise coming from a generation that has been taught from nursery school how special they are.

Again they offer no solutions ,while standing around beating drums, eating free food and using expensive technology to share their “plight” with the whole world. . We are so well off in this country our definition of poor and needy has been twisted beyond recognition.

No I meant co-opted. Since they stand for nothing everybody with an ax to grind co-ps their movement to help them grind their axe

You are missing the point. We are so well off in this country our definition of injustice is perverted. High student loan debt is injustice??? Or perhaps having to use a cell phone instead of a smart phone is considered injustice?

Compared to the poverty in third world countries every body in America does have it good.

Injustice is injustice. When those who struggle to provide the basics for themselves, who enter their 30’s (twice the lifetime of a person’s naturally intended procreative time) unable to even begin to fathom starting a family, see options and opportunities to better their lot in life being gobbled up by few and fewer people of growing power who lie about their wealth dominance being necessary for job creation, who have to deal with a paper democracy that is won 94% of the time by the candidate with the most money, and thus doesn’t answer to them, yet have to watch their disproportionately lower-class friends and family members have their faces blown up in multiple foreign places to “protect” “our” “greatness”, then expectations of the America we were all promised, an America which is perfectly attainable if it answers to the populace, shows a very vivid and correct understanding of justice.

Telling the suffering at home to toughen up because we’re not Ghana is insulting and callous. Naive at best.

 

[estesbob]

Injustice is injustice. When those who struggle to provide the basics for themselves, who can’t even begin to fathom starting a family, see options and opportunities to better their lot in life being gobbled up by few and fewer people of growing power who lie about their wealth dominance being necessary for job creation, who have to deal with a paper democracy that is won 94% of the time by the candidate with the most money, and thus doesn’t answer to them, yet have to watch their disproportionately lower-class friends and family members have their faces blown up in multiple foreign places to “protect” “our” “greatness”, then expectations of the America we were all promised, an America which is perfectly attainable if it answers to the populace, shows a very vivid and correct understanding of justice.

Telling the suffering at home to toughen up because we’re not Ghana is insulting and callous.

Is it? Is not being offered as much for a job as you would like injustice? Is having debt you freely entered into injustice? Is someone making more money than you deem proper injustice?

They are so spolied they not only does have a clue as to what they are protesing for -they dont have a clue of what injustice is.

I will start taking them seriously when they start identyfying problems AND offering solutions.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

And therein lies the problem. They have no specific complaints other than generalized gripes about how life is unfair and somebody, somewhere has to be the reason that life is unfair . But of course they offer no solutions either .

OSW is a Rosarch blot that allows every disaffected group with a gripe to see this group as representing their views. , And they are being co-opted by unions, anti-Semites, white supremacists, left-wing politicians- every body with a gripe now claims solidarity with agroup that is clueless and incoherent.

. We had a Nun speak at Mass last night who runs an orphanage in Ghana. In Ghana children who are born with any kind of birth defect(even being born with teeth is considered a birth be defect) or are slow to develop “properly” are thrown in the river or into the bush to die. Her order rescues them and raises them at their orphanage. That is raise the one’s they have room to care for-they feed nearly 100 children who they don’t have room to house but are starving. Nonetheless.

, I was thinking about OWS as she spoke and thought about how well off we are in a country where are disaffected are concerned about the amount of money there being offered to work while complaining to people all over the country, using their expensive smart phone, while being provided three meals a day. OWS has $500,000 in the bank. At our parish we opened our checkbooks and cleared our wallets for this Nun’s order and I was wondering how much good that half-million dollars could do for those children in Ghana. We are so spoiled in this country we blow up political differences into the massive disputes while children in Ghana die in the bush. We should hang our heads in shame
.

estesbob - is there a website or paypal site to donate to her orphanage?

 

[Jonatello]

Is it? Is not being offered as much for a job as you would like injustice? Is having debt you freely entered into injustice? Is someone making more money than you deem proper injustice?

They are so spolied they not only does have a clue as to what they are protesing for -they dont have a clue of what injustice is.

I will start taking them seriously when they start identyfying problems AND offering solutions.

The control of opportunity and productive resources being concentrated into the hands of fewer elites, thus squeezing the average American out of the public and private arenas, and the use of myth to support such a state of increasing downward mobility, and the auctioning of a goverment that claims to represent the people is where the injustice is. Not the fact that some people are richer than others.

These people are not spoiled. If someone cries in pain at a hospital from something in their stomach region, should they be given a picture of someone dying with leprosy and told to go home until they come up with a diagnosis and treatment plan for the doctor?

 

[estesbob]

estesbob - is there a website or paypal site to donate to her orphanage?

YES! sisterstanschildren.org/index.html

 

[estesbob]

The control of opportunity and productive resources being concentrated into the hands of fewer elites, thus squeezing the average American out of the public and private arenas, and the use of myth to support such a state of increasing downward mobility, and the auctioning of a goverment that claims to represent the people is where the injustice is. Not the fact that some people are richer than others. {/quote]

Where did OWS suggest this is what they were protesting over? What solutions did they offer?

These people are not spoiled. If someone cries in pain at a hospital from something in their stomach region, should they be given a picture of someone dying with leprosy and told to go home until they come up with a diagnosis and treatment plan for the doctor?

 

[marine13]

I simply can’t relate to those who are choosing to protest. My parents grew up under very humble conditions but they worked hard, put themselves through college, incured huge debt, but then found careers that help support our family and pay bills. My wife and I have done the same. I just received by degree and am just about to start paying off my $50,000+ student loan. None of us were forced to go to college or choose certain paths. We chose to take out loans and put ourselves through school so that we may have a better opportunity to support a family. It was a financial decision that none of us took lightly but we chose to do so, knowing the risk involved, in hopes that it would produce better opportunities. No one is entitled to higher education. If you want it you need to pay for it. While I agree that the cost of college is getting a little out of control it should not be simply handed over because so lazy, spoiled brats, don’t feel like actually working hard and earning something all on their own.

And on a side note, as a police officer, who has seen what actually happens during the “Occupy” protests in Denver, I can honestly tell you that the use of force employeed has been reasonable and appropriate. Good rule of thumb, when cops tell you to disperse or to take down a tent, or to back up… you do it!

 

[Jonatello]

I simply can’t relate to those who are choosing to protest. My parents grew up under very humble conditions but they worked hard, put themselves through college, incured huge debt, but then found careers that help support our family and pay bills. My wife and I have done the same. I just received by degree and am just about to start paying off my $50,000+ student loan. None of us were forced to go to college or choose certain paths. We chose to take out loans and put ourselves through school so that we may have a better opportunity to support a family. It was a financial decision that none of us took lightly but we chose to do so, knowing the risk involved, in hopes that it would produce better opportunities. No one is entitled to higher education. If you want it you need to pay for it. While I agree that the cost of college is getting a little out of control it should not be simply handed over because so lazy, spoiled brats, don’t feel like actually working hard and earning something all on their own.

And on a side note, as a police officer, who has seen what actually happens during the “Occupy” protests in Denver, I can honestly tell you that the use of force employeed has been reasonable and appropriate. Good rule of thumb, when cops tell you to disperse or to take down a tent, or to back up… you do it!

of course you would also recognize that you were fortunate in ways many aren’t, and that your success is only partly your own credit.

otherwise, anyone who thinks they did anything all by themselves or that they can’t relate to anyone who weren’t as successful as them is struggling with pride.

 

[Nate13]

I’d like to take a crack at some of these
First of all, these kids are programmed and conditioned by previous generations at all levels of society from the time they’re little that if they want to make something of themselves, they need to go to college.

Emporia St. here in Kansas costs from about $1,000 a semester in tuition. Kids didn’t choose to go to KU or KSU which costs anywhere for 3 to 6 times as much instead of Emporia St. because their parents pressured them to. Anyone going out of state for college gets even less sympathy. I know from experience kids don’t usually choose to go to the big Universities and out of state colleges for a business degrees because of the difference in education. They go because of the atmosphere and the parties.

Many of them are still in a position of obedience (“under my roof”) to parents who expect it when its time to make a decision about college.

Haha who has teenagers that actually do what their parents tell them? The ones who actually have respect for their parents are the ones who are probably making reasonable choices and making use of a degree they are getting.

This is also the first generation for whom the cost of college is so much higher than their ability to pay for it…

…and yet it’s also ironically the generation for whom entry to the middle class is more dependent on college degrees than ever before.

Except, it’s also the generation with the lowest chance of actually finding a job period.

So young people in this country have been put in a catch 22:

1. Go to college and take out loans to (a) obey parents and/or (b) have a chance of getting a job that you can actually raise a family on, even though your chances of paying off the debt will still be pretty shaky.

Pay $1,000 a semester in tuition as opposed to $6,000 or as much as $20,000 a semester out of state tuition. I highly doubt you have anyone complaining about paying their student loans from going to Emporia St. They could probably easily pay their tuition and living expenses with a part-time job working 20 hours a week.

or

1. Don’t go to college and have an even worse chance of getting any kind of decent job whatsoever.

So were kids forced by colleges at gunpoint? No. They were just coerced at shun-point and starve-point.

Sorry not buying it.

Great question. Should it matter? Does it matter? Let’s ask each separately, shall we?
:

1. Low-cost is a relative term. Even the cost of local community colleges is a mountain if you have no decent income.

$8,000 total in tuition for a 4 year degree is pretty reasonable. Even if you took all of that out in a loan that is going to result in payments of around $100 dollars a month after you get out. Not unreasonable at all. That is almost the price of cable tv haha.

1. Many low-cost schools are very limited in the courses/majors they offer. What if your God-given aptitudes/talents are in something that the local community college doesn’t teach?

Emporia St. has one of the best teaching programs in the state, and gives out a solid business degree. If you want an Engineering degree you go to KU or KSU and pay 6 times as much for your degree, but when you get out with that degree you will be making enough to pay for it.

1. “Why don’t they get a job without a degree” sounds like “they don’t have bread? why don’t they eat cake?”

I’m sorry this just isn’t the case. Your line of reasoning relies upon that fact that community colleges are worthless and limiting. I suggest doing some research and you will find this is not the case. A computer information systems degree from Emporia St. can have you making over $100,000 in 10 years. It is also very possible to choose to go to a community college for the first 2 years of college and then transfer to a University in state. You can probably save up quite a bit of money working part time will going to the community college and reduce the amount of loans you have to take out substantially.

 

[marine13]

of course you would also recognize that you were fortunate in ways many aren’t, and that your success is only partly your own credit.

otherwise, anyone who thinks they did anything all by themselves or that they can’t relate to anyone who weren’t as successful as them is struggling with pride.

I do agree that I have been blessed with things that others have not but some of those blessing include self-reliance, a good work ethic, and the ability to work through tough times instead of simply whining about why a deserve something. Anyone can have that. These protesters don’t present any viable solutions or ideas to change a struggling system. All they want is a free hand out. I am 30 years old and only just got my degree. I wanted it, I took the risk, made the the investment, and got it. It took me a while but I got it. Never did I once say that I deserve it, am entitled to it, or that it should be free. This is what those people are pushing and that is why I can’t relate.

Imagine these kids if they were sent back to the Great Depression. I highly doubt they would be wasting their time whining about the cost of things. Instead they would be searching for work to bring home some money… actually doing something productive.

I know that all the things I have accomplished would have been much harder if it were not for my parents and wife, and impossible without God. But because the choice to pursue my goals was ultimately my choice and completed through hard work done by me, I am proud of what I have done. I hope that my actions will help inspire my kids to do the same. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Waiting]

I do agree that I have been blessed with things that others have not but some of those blessing include self-reliance, a good work ethic, and the ability to work through tough times instead of simply whining about why a deserve something. Anyone can have that. These protesters don’t present any viable solutions or ideas to change a struggling system. All they want is a free hand out. I am 30 years old and only just got my degree. I wanted it, I took the risk, made the the investment, and got it. It took me a while but I got it. Never did I once say that I deserve it, am entitled to it, or that it should be free. This is what those people are pushing and that is why I can’t relate.

Imagine these kids if they were sent back to the Great Depression. I highly doubt they would be wasting their time whining about the cost of things. Instead they would be searching for work to bring home some money… actually doing something productive.

I know that all the things I have accomplished would have been much harder if it were not for my parents and wife, and impossible without God. But because the choice to pursue my goals was ultimately my choice and completed through hard work done by me, I am proud of what I have done. I hope that my actions will help inspire my kids to do the same. There is nothing wrong with that.

You’re a real inspiration to all of us. I grew up in the Great Depression, and I can tell you that I couldn’t wait to graduate high school and start working so that I could make things easier for my dad, who had sacrificed so much for his family, especially since he had to do it alone. My mother died when her children were very young. Too many of the young today are looking for an easy way to live. There is no easy way. Life demands sacrifices, hard work, and initiative.

 

[TimothyH]

Oh the weather outside is frightful,
But the fire is so delightful,
And since we’ve no place to go,
Let It Snow! Let It Snow! Let It Snow!

It doesn’t show signs of stopping,
And I’ve bought some corn for popping,
The lights are turned way down low,
Let It Snow! Let It Snow! Let It Snow!

When we finally kiss goodnight,
How I’ll hate going out in the storm!
But if you’ll really hold me tight,
All the way home I’ll be warm.

The fire is slowly dying,
And, my dear, we’re still good-bying,
But as long as you love me so,
Let It Snow! Let It Snow! Let It Snow!

-Tim-

 

[promethius]

of course you would also recognize that you were fortunate in ways many aren’t, and that your success is only partly your own credit.

otherwise, anyone who thinks they did anything all by themselves or that they can’t relate to anyone who weren’t as successful as them is struggling with pride.

What about me? My parents were so poor that at one point they were putting gravy on rice so they could pretend they could afford meat. Niether of my parents went to college straight away. My sister went to school dances in home made dresses, and mom sewed A LOT of our clothing. I didn’t get a cell phone until I was 18, and only then because over the space of the last 30 years my parents and myself have managed to pull ourselves up from conditions that make these college graduate whiners look like yoko ono lounging in her inherited palace. I put myself through college on a full ride scholarship… why? Because I knew that if it wasn’t full ride I couldn’t afford to go to school.

The problem is that these “poor” of the occupy movement are not poor at all. Most of them simply made terrible choices (yes, based on the (name removed by moderator)ut of their parents) and now don’t want to take responsibility for their choices. The very fact that there are people from alma mater involved in these protests show me the total lack of real world experience these people possess (FYI… my university cost nearly what most people earn in a year… and I recall nearly wanting to punch one of my classmates when he asserted his parents who were paying cash for his tuition were “not very well off”)

 

[Jonatello]

Nate13:
It’s hard for me to properly respond to your post, given the formatting (nothing appears when I choose the “quote” option, but in summary:

I never said community colleges provide a subpar education…my point was that many of the in-state community colleges available to students (especially depending on their location) simply don’t have as many curriculum options. Not everyone has an Emporia St nearby, it turns out.

Also your assessment of the difficulty in a $20,000 debt burden still assumes dependable part time jobs for everyone.

When you say my response to the “get a job without a degree” is wrong because it insinuates community colleges are worthless, I’m confused. Are community college degrees not considered degrees?

Telling a generation who can’t find jobs with degrees, for whom getting jobs without degrees is substantially even more difficult, that they should have just gotten a job without a degree…that’s bread/cake exactly.

Lastly, the salary an individual “can possibly” make in a given field is irrelevant to what society’s priorities should be. Our civilization would really hurt if people stopped pursuing all those other tuition-heavy roles. Are we really supposed to turn a cold shoulder to an entire generation for walking into an economic buzzsaw that they didn’t create nor were warned about, just because they looked at the gifts that God gave them and figured their society would benefit from theologians, historians, etc?

 

[Jonatello]

I do agree that I have been blessed with things that others have not but some of those blessing include self-reliance, a good work ethic, and the ability to work through tough times instead of simply whining about why a deserve something.

have you ever heard the parable of the man who prayed to God “thank you for making me less lazy than these people, not as weak-minded, more virtuous, etc” ?

 

[Jonatello]

What about me? My parents were so poor that at one point they were putting gravy on rice so they could pretend they could afford meat. Niether of my parents went to college straight away. My sister went to school dances in home made dresses, and mom sewed A LOT of our clothing. I didn’t get a cell phone until I was 18, and only then because over the space of the last 30 years my parents and myself have managed to pull ourselves up from conditions that make these college graduate whiners look like yoko ono lounging in her inherited palace. I put myself through college on a full ride scholarship… why? Because I knew that if it wasn’t full ride I couldn’t afford to go to school.

The problem is that these “poor” of the occupy movement are not poor at all. Most of them simply made terrible choices (yes, based on the (name removed by moderator)ut of their parents) and now don’t want to take responsibility for their choices. The very fact that there are people from alma mater involved in these protests show me the total lack of real world experience these people possess (FYI… my university cost nearly what most people earn in a year… and I recall nearly wanting to punch one of my classmates when he asserted his parents who were paying cash for his tuition were “not very well off”)

I’m happy for you. But we could go back and forth trading anecdotal success stories all week, and it doesn’t do anything to change the big picture. The data is clear.

1 job available for every 5 people looking for a job. The “christian” answer: “Buck up then and get 3 jobs like i did.”

on and on illogical pride songs by the good, proper Godly class

The fact that we are here on a Christianity board using stories of our own monetary rise to belittle and dismiss the less fortunate/successful (and those who are fortunate but concerned) as less virtuous compared to ourselves makes me so sad I can’t begin to describe the feeling.

 

[marine13]

I’m happy for you. But we could go back and forth trading anecdotal success stories all week, and it doesn’t do anything to change the big picture. The data is clear.

1 job available for every 5 people looking for a job. The “christian” answer: “Buck up then and get 3 jobs like i did.”

on and on illogical pride songs by the good, proper Godly class

The fact that we are here on a Christianity board using stories of our own monetary rise to belittle and dismiss the less fortunate/successful (and those who are fortunate but concerned) as less virtuous compared to ourselves makes me so sad I can’t begin to describe the feeling.

I don’t think anyone here is belittling and dismissing these people because of the current economic situation in our country. I think all of us know someone who is continuing to struggle because of these hard times. What most of us are arguing is that the protests are counter productive and are actually hurting local economies and therefore the actions of the protesters are rediculous in that they have no defined, logical, and attainable goal. Instead of continuing these pointless and useless protests their time would be better spent seeking employment no matter how rare it is. This might mean that they have to work the “dirty” jobs but at least they are contributing to the economy and bringing home some money.

I don’t think I am a better person than others because of the actions I have taken. I just believe that my, and many other’s, actions are far smarter and more productive than these protester’s are.

Monetary rise? Like most of America, my family and I are up to our ears in debt. Yes the debt was mostly our choice but the thing is I am not whining about it and demanding a free hand out.

And really?.. what’s with the sarcasm? Your snide remarks do little to help your point.

 

[DL82]

One dimension of OWS that has been overlooked is the interesting metaphor of people living in tents inside a financial district. Markets are not designed for people to live in, and traditionally only travellers or beggars would actually live within the market square. The market serves society, not society serving the market. On that level, having people sleeping in tents inside the Wall Street district may be quite a useful metaphor.

 

[Jonatello]

I don’t think anyone here is belittling and dismissing these people because of the current economic situation in our country. I think all of us know someone who is continuing to struggle because of these hard times. What most of us are arguing is that the protests are counter productive and are actually hurting local economies and therefore the actions of the protesters are rediculous in that they have no defined, logical, and attainable goal. Instead of continuing these pointless and useless protests their time would be better spent seeking employment no matter how rare it is.

I completely disagree, but its a fair opinion and this would make for a legitimate debate.

This might mean that they have to work the “dirty” jobs but at least they are contributing to the economy and bringing home some money.

You still aren’t getting it. What dirty jobs? 5 to 1, not counting those who have given up the goose hunt.

I don’t think I am a better person than others because of the actions I have taken. I just believe that my, and many other’s, actions are far smarter and more productive than these protester’s are.

Fair enough, I pray that’s the case. It still assumes everyone has the same ability and opportunity to do what you did. It implies all credit goes to you, because there isn’t anything in your situation that any other struggling person doesn’t have.

And as someone else has said, “even if anyone can do it, not everyone can do it”. The simple math and structure of our system means the bottom will always be larger than the top. Telling everyone near the bottom its their own fault for not being higher may feel convenient but it doesn’t make sense.

Monetary rise? Like most of America, my family and I are up to our ears in debt. Yes the debt was mostly our choice but the thing is I am not whining about it and demanding a free hand out.

The people at OWS aren’t all demanding free handouts. That’s not the main point. They’re protesting the control and power the wealthiest 1% have over the entire game. They’re protesting the fact that their civic institutions don’t listen to the people because DC is owned by Wall St. The list goes on, but its not a crowd of people asking for handouts. And for those who are, since when is it Christ-like to scorn the beggars?

And really?.. what’s with the sarcasm? Your snide remarks do little to help your point.

please show me where I was being sarcastic

 

[Jonatello]

One dimension of OWS that has been overlooked is the interesting metaphor of people living in tents inside a financial district. Markets are not designed for people to live in, and traditionally only travellers or beggars would actually live within the market square. The market serves society, not society serving the market. On that level, having people sleeping in tents inside the Wall Street district may be quite a useful metaphor.

Absolutely!

Slightly off topic, but in terms of people living in market areas, the most vibrant of downtowns in civilization were almost always mixed-use with residences included (typically upper floors) and/or very short walking distance away.

Maybe not in the actual outside ground level public area of the square though, so if that’s what you mean yeah.

But agreed, this contrast helps to drive the point that the market/society relationship has been turned on its head.