OCD Catholic Style

[CCCatholic17]

My spiritual director informed me yesterday that I “suffer” from scrupulosity. I mentioned to him that to be a scrupulous person one must be in fear of God’s judgement and wrath. I don’t feel that way at all. I do, however get upset when I read theology and see (he, him, his, god) not capitalized or have to go to mass on Saturday night instead of Sunday, things of that nature. I admit that I am a perfectionist when it comes to my spiritual patterns but not in a way that is destructive to my relationship with God. Am I in denial of scrupulosity or is this behavior normal?

Peace and Love,
Heather

 

[LilyM]

My spiritual director informed me yesterday that I “suffer” from scrupulosity. I mentioned to him that to be a scrupulous person one must be in fear of God’s judgement and wrath. I don’t feel that way at all. I do, however get upset when I read theology and see (he, him, his, god) not capitalized or have to go to mass on Saturday night instead of Sunday, things of that nature. I admit that I am a perfectionist when it comes to my spiritual patterns but not in a way that is destructive to my relationship with God. Am I in denial of scrupulosity or is this behavior normal?

Peace and Love,
Heather

If by normal you mean average - not at all. Would Jesus, God incarnate who was greatest of all and also last of all and servant of all, washing his own apostles’ feet, care whether his name was honoured with a capital letter or not? Doubt it.

Scrupulous? Maybe your behaviour doesn’t fit the technical definition of it. You definitely need to keep a watch on it though. It sounds like it possibly can be a detriment of your spiritual life - for example if your annoyance at the style of a theological writer is such that it prevents you paying attention to the substance of what they write.

As to the business of going to Mass on Saturday night as opposed to Sunday … There is absolutely no difference between the two. They are the same readings, same prayers, same liturgical day. And absolutely no reason to see one as somehow ‘better’ than the others. The canon law and other regulations permitting vigil masses do not indicate that Sunday masses are in any respect different or to be preferred.

Jesus himself, being a devout Jew, doubtless began his Sabbath celebrations on the evening prior and would have no problems with vigils

 

[jmcrae]

Heather;

It seems as though it’s hard for you to distinguish between important things and unimportant things.

It might be an idea to sit down, make some lists, and decide what’s worth getting upset about (someone hurting a child; someone advising another person to commit a mortal sin) and what things you can let go of, to “live and let live.”

One rule you can trust is that if the Church permits something, then so can you.

 

[San_Patricio]

I hate to pick fights (well, no I don’t. But I’m trying to quit liking it so much, does that count?), but I think you are absolutely right and that the advice above is awful. I’m sure that viewed in terms of the world we live in today your thoughts/behaviour could lean toward scrupulosity, but we are called to (at least try to) transcend that (I’m failing so far, but I’m still here so there’s hope).

Our Lord’s Holy Name and references to Him should be capitalized.

Saturday Vigil Mass is acceptable if you cannot attend the regular Sunday Mass. People who attend the Vigil Mass just to free up their Sunday are not in comformity with the mind of the Church, even if they are technically following the letter of the law.

I think both your heart and mind are in the right place OP, and don’t let anyone tell you it’s okay to water-down our Faith!

And no, you absolutely are not “normal”, you’re Catholic! Be proud of it.

In a humble sort of way.

 

[jmcrae]

Our Lord’s Holy Name and references to Him should be capitalized.

In German, sure.

But in English, either way is acceptable, and for a formal paper (ie: a theology paper), one uses formal English, which always uses lower-case letters inside of a sentence, other than for proper names.

A truly over-scrupulous person would know that …

 

[LilyM]

I hate to pick fights (well, no I don’t. But I’m trying to quit liking it so much, does that count?), but I think you are absolutely right and that the advice above is awful. I’m sure that viewed in terms of the world we live in today your thoughts/behaviour could lean toward scrupulosity, but we are called to (at least try to) transcend that (I’m failing so far, but I’m still here so there’s hope).

Our Lord’s Holy Name and references to Him should be capitalized.

Saturday Vigil Mass is acceptable if you cannot attend the regular Sunday Mass. People who attend the Vigil Mass just to free up their Sunday are not in comformity with the mind of the Church, even if they are technically following the letter of the law.

I think both your heart and mind are in the right place OP, and don’t let anyone tell you it’s okay to water-down our Faith!

And no, you absolutely are not “normal”, you’re Catholic! Be proud of it.

In a humble sort of way.

How dare you say that jmcrae’s faith or mine is in any way watered down.

Where anywhere is it written in any official document of the church that Saturday vigil is not perfectly fine. Even if one can attend on Sunday? This is not mere technicality. The church is well capable of saying that we should attend Sunday if possible. For example, it has shown its clear preference on the issue of communion in the hand v communion on the tongue by making the latter the norm and the former only available by indult.

It doesn’t do any such thing in regard to Saturday v Sunday masses. And for at least one extremely good reason. It is EXACTLY the same Mass, Saturday vigil or Sunday!!!

Would you dare to tell people that their faith is “watered down” if they choose to attend noon mass on a Sunday as opposed to 8am, and do so simply out of personal preference? What is the difference then between choosing a later Sunday Mass or an earlier Saturday evening one?

There’s an expression ‘more Catholic than the Pope’. Don’t presume that the Church is unable to clearly state its mind and that you have to interpret it for us.

 

[jmcrae]

In the liturgical week, Sunday is the longest day of the week. It begins at 4:00 pm on Saturday evening, and goes until midnight on Sunday.

If you look in the Liturgy of the Hours, you will never find “Saturday Evening” - it’s “Evening I of Sunday.” (Sunday night is "Evening II of Sunday.)

 

[CCCatholic17]

In response to why I don’t like to go to mass on Saturday–here is EXACTLY what influenced my love for the Sabbath. Brought to you by the Catechism of the Catholic Church!!

SUNDAY:
the day of Jesus’ resurrection 1343
the day to cultivate family, cultural, social and religious life 2184, 2194
celebration as the heart of the Church’s life 2177
defense of Sunday as a holy day 2187-88
the fulfillment of the Sabbath 2175-76
the Lord’s day as the first day of the week 1166, 2174
obligation to take part in Sunday liturgy 1389, 2042, 2180-83
Sunday as the principal day for the celebration of the Eucharist 1193
significance of the Lord’s day 1163, 2190

I don’t want this thread to make anyone angry or defensive…I only want your opinions to help me deepen my faith.

 

[San_Patricio]

How dare you say that jmcrae’s faith or mine is in any way watered down.

Where anywhere is it written in any official document of the church that Saturday vigil is not perfectly fine. Even if one can attend on Sunday? This is not mere technicality. The church is well capable of saying that we should attend Sunday if possible. For example, it has shown its clear preference on the issue of communion in the hand v communion on the tongue by making the latter the norm and the former only available by indult.

Please document that. Where is either required by indult? I prefer to receive on the tongue, but my understanding is that in the early Church, receiving in the hand was the norm.

It doesn’t do any such thing in regard to Saturday v Sunday masses. And for at least one extremely good reason. It is EXACTLY the same Mass, Saturday vigil or Sunday!!!

Would you dare to tell people that their faith is “watered down” if they choose to attend noon mass on a Sunday as opposed to 8am, and do so simply out of personal preference? What is the difference then between choosing a later Sunday Mass or an earlier Saturday evening one?

Yes, and if by some chance you could find a priest who offered the Sunday Mass all week, would you be fulfilling your Sunday obligation by going on Tuesday? Thursday? How about 0005 on Monday… it’s sort of still Sunday.

The Church allows a Saturday Vigil for those who cannot attend on Sunday. They don’t check on it and I doubt God would be very angry with anyone (but then, I don’t know His mind) for choosing the evening Vigil Mass, but it is offered to make the Mass more accesible to all Catholics, not just to suit people’s preference. Show me a document from the Church that says “Saturday is just as good, it’s up to you”.

There’s an expression ‘more Catholic than the Pope’. Don’t presume that the Church is unable to clearly state its mind and that you have to interpret it for us.

I’m not, I don’t and I don’t.

It’s the Sunday Mass.

 

[San_Patricio]

In response to why I don’t like to go to mass on Saturday–here is EXACTLY what influenced my love for the Sabbath. Brought to you by the Catechism of the Catholic Church!!

SUNDAY:
the day of Jesus’ resurrection 1343
the day to cultivate family, cultural, social and religious life 2184, 2194
celebration as the heart of the Church’s life 2177
defense of Sunday as a holy day 2187-88
the fulfillment of the Sabbath 2175-76
the Lord’s day as the first day of the week 1166, 2174
obligation to take part in Sunday liturgy 1389, 2042, 2180-83
Sunday as the principal day for the celebration of the Eucharist 1193
significance of the Lord’s day 1163, 2190

I don’t want this thread to make anyone angry or defensive…I only want your opinions to help me deepen my faith.

 

[San_Patricio]

(Hit the wrong button. Oops.)

I only meant that I believe you are correct in the letter and spirit of the law. I don’t think you are being scrupulous at all at all.

It is my understanding that, while the Vigil is acceptable (yes it is the same Mass), it is prefered by the Church that we attend Sunday (the regular calendar day Sunday).

Also, while not all Parishes offer the Vigil Mass, find me one that offers only the Vigil Mass…

I don’t think any of us should try to be “more Catholic than the Pope”, but I do sincerly think that we should all try to be as Catholic as we can.

 

[GoldenArrow]

Scrupulous? Maybe your behaviour doesn’t fit the technical definition of it. You definitely need to keep a watch on it though.

Sounds like good advice.

Scrupulosity has a tendency to evolve, grow, change form and dimensions, much like a weed in a garden. Take some advice from someone who suffers from scupulosity–me. If you have a tendency for scrupulosity, be on guard for scrupulous things. If you so much as suspect that you’re being scrupulous, then put the thing your obsessing about out of your mind immediately. It takes practice, but after awhile you’ll get very good at recognizing WHEN you’re being scrupulous, and when you’re not.

There are times for righteous indignation and there are times for quiet reflection.

God Bless!

 

[LilyM]

(Hit the wrong button. Oops.)

I only meant that I believe you are correct in the letter and spirit of the law. I don’t think you are being scrupulous at all at all.

It is my understanding that, while the Vigil is acceptable (yes it is the same Mass), it is prefered by the Church that we attend Sunday (the regular calendar day Sunday).

Also, while not all Parishes offer the Vigil Mass, find me one that offers only the Vigil Mass…

I don’t think any of us should try to be “more Catholic than the Pope”, but I do sincerly think that we should all try to be as Catholic as we can.

Plenty of evidence that communion on the tongue is preferred - one that immediately springs to mind is the document Inestimabile Dominum, where JP2 outright stated his disapproval of communion in the hand. Find me ANYTHING where similar disapproval is expressed in regard to Saturday vigil Masses.

And yes, there are churches that don’t offer Saturday vigils, there are also churches that don’t offer SUNDAY evening Masses. Are Sunday evening Masses somehow ‘less than’ too? There are more churches that offer confession once a week than churches that offer it every day - is this preferred practice as well? Many more churches that have only one priest than multiple priests, many many more that have loads of lay EMsHC … need I go on? You’ve shown nothing and proven nothing.

 

[San_Patricio]

And yes, there are churches that don’t offer Saturday vigils, there are also churches that don’t offer SUNDAY evening Masses. Are Sunday evening Masses somehow ‘less than’ too? There are more churches that offer confession once a week than churches that offer it every day - is this preferred practice as well? Many more churches that have only one priest than multiple priests, many many more that have loads of lay EMsHC … need I go on? You’ve shown nothing and proven nothing.

Yeah, I guess you do need to go on. The OP prefers to attend the SUNDAY Mass on SUNDAY. I agree. The Church agrees.
If you want to say I’m wrong, don’t quote “Inestimabile Dominun” (which you didn’t, just made a vague reference to it) about the Eucharist, show me somoething on the Mass that says “whenever you want to go to Sunday Mass is fine, as long as it’s all the same readings… Sunday, Tuesday, Saturday, whatever.”
Produce the document please.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

In response to why I don’t like to go to mass on Saturday–here is EXACTLY what influenced my love for the Sabbath. Brought to you by the Catechism of the Catholic Church!!

SUNDAY:
the day of Jesus’ resurrection 1343
the day to cultivate family, cultural, social and religious life 2184, 2194
celebration as the heart of the Church’s life 2177
defense of Sunday as a holy day 2187-88
the fulfillment of the Sabbath 2175-76
the Lord’s day as the first day of the week 1166, 2174
obligation to take part in Sunday liturgy 1389, 2042, 2180-83
Sunday as the principal day for the celebration of the Eucharist 1193
significance of the Lord’s day 1163, 2190

I don’t want this thread to make anyone angry or defensive…I only want your opinions to help me deepen my faith.

I think you proved your spiritual director correct. Did you know originally God had Saturday as the day of worship? I have always been taught that in ancient time’s sun down was considered the end of the day. Is that not the reason the Easter Vigil is held immediately after sun down on a day we call Saturday but ancients’ would have called Sunday?

 

[Texas_Roofer]

Please document that. …

It is canon 1248(Saturday Vigil) and “29 May 1969: AAS 61 (1969) 546-547; Not 5 (1969) 351-353” - the reply for the indult of placing communion in the hand.

 

[San_Patricio]

I think you proved your spiritual director correct. Did you know originally God had Saturday as the day of worship? I have always been taught that in ancient time’s sun down was considered the end of the day. Is that not the reason the Easter Vigil is held immediately after sun down on a day we call Saturday but ancients’ would have called Sunday?

I’m not sure what you mean by “proving (her) spiritual director correct”. If you’re insinuating that taking her faith seriously and wanting to lead a Catholic life is somehow being scrupulous, I’d have to disagree.

Yes, under the Old Covenant the Lord’s Day was Saturday. Under the New Covenant it’s Sunday. Jesus changed it, not me.

Yes, the day ends at sundown. After that it’s night. You are correct in that the Jews considered the new day to begin at sundown, thus the offering of the vigil Mass. I didn’t say the vigil Mass was wrong, if it was the Church wouldn’t have it. I said attendence on Sunday was the norm.

 

[San_Patricio]

It is canon 1248(Saturday Vigil) and “29 May 1969: AAS 61 (1969) 546-547; Not 5 (1969) 351-353” - the reply for the indult of placing communion in the hand.

Canon 1248 is the “Basic Norms for the Formation of Permanent Deacons”. I don’t think that’s what we’re after here.

The other two citations weren’t on the Vatican website. I did find AAS 61, but it doesn’t go into the 500’s. I found the section on receiving in the hand, but it wasn’t AAS 5.

I don’t think anyone said you couldn’t receive in the hand.

 

[Morning_Star15]

San Patricio, going to Mass on Saturday evening is not the same as going on another day of the week, since, as it has already been explained by jmcrae and others, Saturday evening IS Sunday. I had a bit of a hard time with that one myself doing the LOTH (at first I was scratching my head and frantically searching through the book for Saturday Evening Prayer until some explained this concept to me). Sunday, being the Sabbath, is timed according to the ancient Jewish observance, which says that Sabbath begins at sundown the day before. Therefore liturgically speaking, Sunday begins at sundown on Saturday, so going to a Saturday evening Mass is the same as going to Mass during the day on Sunday, because by going to a Saturday evening Mass you ARE going to Mass on Sunday.

Karolina

 

[San_Patricio]

Karolina

I understand fully the links to our Jewish roots, I was mainly trying to point out that the OP was not being scrupulous in wanting to go Sunday day rather than Saturday night. Maybe I got carried away and didn’t get my point across very well.

I would like to point out that scrupulosity is serious, and I don’t think it’s a very good idea to insinuate that someone may be suffering from it just because they are trying to do God’s will.

With the world as it is today, I think it would be very difficult to be even half as holy as many earlier Catholics were. I think going on Sunday day when possible is a good thing.

Anyway, the rest of what I had originally posted was that it was wrong to go Saturday night just to “free up” your Sunday. We are still called to give the day to the Lord, whether it begins Saturday night or Sunday morn.