Odd Question: Eucharist Consecration and Word Salad

[BlaineTog]

Just a funny little question that occurred to me: is the consecration still valid if the priest spontaneously develops aphasia right before it? (Aphasia, by the way, is when you start spouting the wrong words without knowing it – you might mean “Would you like some tea?” and think you said “Would you like some tea?” but actually said “Adobe fish clock brightness troupe?”) After all, he intends the right words, they just come out all wrong.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Just a funny little question that occurred to me: is the consecration still valid if the priest spontaneously develops aphasia right before it? (Aphasia, by the way, is when you start spouting the wrong words without knowing it – you might mean “Would you like some tea?” and think you said “Would you like some tea?” but actually said “Adobe fish clock brightness troupe?”) After all, he intends the right words, they just come out all wrong.

No, if he does not say (or at least wisper) the correct words, there is no Consecration.

 

[LilyM]

No - for a sacrament to be effected you need BOTH the correct form of words (in this case the words of consecration) AND the correct intent.

 

[bpbasilphx]

No - for a sacrament to be effected you need BOTH the correct form of words (in this case the words of consecration) AND the correct intent.

AND the proper matter, too: in this case, bread and wine.

 

[LilyM]

No - for a sacrament to be effected you need BOTH the correct form of words (in this case the words of consecration) AND the correct intent.

AND the proper matter, too: in this case, bread and wine.

Goes without saying

 

[bpbasilphx]

A monk of my acquaintance suffers from fibromyalgia. One of its symptoms is aphasia.

One day he was trying to read the epistle, and locked up. He said afterwards that the only word that wanted to come out of his mouth was “sausage,” and he was determined not to say it.

 

[BlaineTog]

No, if he does not say (or at least wisper) the correct words, there is no Consecration.

The thing is, though, that to the priest, they are the right words. And after all, the actual sounds that come out of the priest’s mouth can’t be significant, since you can consecrate the bread and wine while speaking English or Italian or Chinese or Navajo and those all sound completelly different.

 

[kristie_m]

The thing is, though, that to the priest, they are the right words. And after all, the actual sounds that come out of the priest’s mouth can’t be significant, since you can consecrate the bread and wine while speaking English or Italian or Chinese or Navajo and those all sound completelly different.

hmm…but while they might sound different, the words WOULD be the same, simply in a different language. If I say verde, for instance, the word is still green. However, if I say “peanut” in any language, it’ll never mean green. Does that make sense?

 

[BlaineTog]

hmm…but while they might sound different, the words WOULD be the same, simply in a different language. If I say verde, for instance, the word is still green. However, if I say “peanut” in any language, it’ll never mean green. Does that make sense?

Yes, but at that moment, to the person with aphasia, it does mean green. The comprehension of the congregation isn’t relevant, so why would it be here?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The thing is, though, that to the priest, they are the right words. And after all, the actual sounds that come out of the priest’s mouth can’t be significant, since you can consecrate the bread and wine while speaking English or Italian or Chinese or Navajo and those all sound completelly different.

The actual words that come out of the priest’s mouth are absolutely significant.

 

[kristie_m]

Yes, but at that moment, to the person with aphasia, it does mean green. The comprehension of the congregation isn’t relevant, so why would it be here?

I should think it would be, to a certain degree. I mean, what if while the priest MEANT to say “This is my body” but what the congregation heard was something profane? I don’t know about you, but I’d be pretty uncomfortable receiving under those circumstances.

I can see this is probably going to get into semantics soon, but it does make for an interesting discussion!

 

[LilyM]

The actual words that come out of the priest’s mouth are absolutely significant.

Absolutely - Jesus said ‘do this’, so there’s just no guarantee that merely because one thinks or intends to be ‘doing this’, that the sacrament is confected if one is in reality doing other.

Same reason that the rules on matter (composition of the bread and wine) are so strict. Fact is we don’t really know that NOTHING was added either to the bread or wine at the Last Supper, but we can’t assume that it was, and we can’t assume that if we take liberties the with the matter the sacrament will still be confected anyway.

 

[BlaineTog]

The actual words that come out of the priest’s mouth are absolutely significant.

You’re misreading me. “Questo è il mio corpo,” “Dit is mijn lichaam,” and “This is my body” all mean the same thing and could all be valid. The priest can’t say “Questo è il suo corpo” because that means “This is your body,” but as I recall, it’s still valid if he just misspoke without realizing it.

kristie_m:

I should think it would be, to a certain degree. I mean, what if while the priest MEANT to say “This is my body” but what the congregation heard was something profane? I don’t know about you, but I’d be pretty uncomfortable receiving under those circumstances.

Yeah, but that’s an epistemological problem rather than an ontological one. The consecration could still have been valid, though you wouldn’t necessarily know it (perhaps the Priest was saying the mass in, say, Russian, and whatever “This is my body” is in Russian sounds profane to the English ear [not saying it does, just a hypothetical]).

LilyM:

Fact is we don’t really know that NOTHING was added either to the bread or wine at the Last Supper, but we can’t assume that it was, and we can’t assume that if we take liberties the with the matter the sacrament will still be confected anyway.

The priest isn’t taking liberties. He’s experiencing a sudden acute mental disorder.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

You’re misreading me. “Questo è il mio corpo,” “Dit is mijn lichaam,” and “This is my body” all mean the same thing and could all be valid. The priest can’t say “Questo è il suo corpo” because that means “This is your body,” but as I recall, it’s still valid if he just misspoke without realizing it.

Yeah, but that’s an epistemological problem rather than an ontological one. The consecration could still have been valid, though you wouldn’t necessarily know it (perhaps the Priest was saying the mass in, say, Russian, and whatever “This is my body” is in Russian sounds profane to the English ear [not saying it does, just a hypothetical]).

The priest isn’t taking liberties. He’s experiencing a sudden acute mental disorder.

“The priest can’t say “Questo è il suo corpo” because that means “This is your body,” but as I recall, it’s still valid if he just misspoke without realizing it.”

He would be required to go back and say the correct words if he realizes or someone tells him. If no one realizes it the Consecration would be invalid.

This is why priests are strongly encouraged to READ the words from the book and not say Mass by memory.

“The priest isn’t taking liberties. He’s experiencing a sudden acute mental disorder.”

In that case he should be restricted to only concelebrating and should not celebrate Mass alone. Just like a priest who cannot receive Holy Communion under BOTH forms. He is NOT permitted to celebrate Mass alone or as the Main celebrant of a concelebrated Mass.

There must be extreme care, with absolute certainty, when it come to celebrating the Sacraments.

 

[BlaineTog]

In that case he should be restricted to only concelebrating and should not celebrate Mass alone. Just like a priest who cannot receive Holy Communion under BOTH forms. He is NOT permitted to celebrate Mass alone or as the Main celebrant of a concelebrated Mass.

There must be extreme care, with absolute certainty, when it come to celebrating the Sacraments.

Yes, obviously. It is certainly imprudent to take chances, unless perhaps he’s the only priest available. But my question involved a sudden, freak occurrence, as if out of the blue.