Odds of a good marriage and risks of getting married

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marymary1975 said:

“As I already mentioned to you 90% of divorces end up in a settlement agreed by the parties so while you keep ranting about the men not having the custody and the wife having the house you don’t seem to get that in the vast majority of cases the man AGREED to that.”

Or that it represents a fairly reasonable division of property.

The divorce I know best is my aunt and uncle. My aunt is a TALKER, so I heard lots about it. They had a house, quite a few rental homes, and a pile of his credit card debt run up during the separation. There was a fairly equitable division of the home and rental houses, with my aunt getting the house and a few (three?) of the rental homes.

The financial arrangements seemed pretty fair. During the three or so years of spousal support, she got about $20k a year (her husband was making $250k) for herself. There was also some child support, but very briefly, as their youngest aged out pretty fast. He also helped with college. But, as I said, $250k a year.

Financially speaking, that sounded pretty fair to me.
Truth is most of the the financial settlements are fair. Remember that most of the time both parties have independent counsel watching for the interest of their own client so reality is most of the time nether one get what they want…which is how it is supposed to be…and by the time the settlement is agreed each party has reviewed it discussed it changed it no less than twenty times. Of course, there are cases where someone takes advatange of the other. There are bad lawyers. There are cases in which one person due to economical power or influence is able to take advantage of the other but that is not the majority. Also you cannot know what actually happened until you get the perspective of both parties involved and most of the time divorces that end up in eternal fights the fault is on both parties, so making an assessment of an entire institution (marriage) based on the biased- not correct vision of one person (someone who went through a divorce and complains about the result) is the incorrect way of assessing something.
 
I would actually love to hear your (name removed by moderator)ut as a SAHD. What benefits of marriage is your wife getting exactly, if you aren’t working? And don’t say childcare and housework, she could hire a nanny. 😉

Obviously, I’m being facetious.
Aside from my irreplaceable physical attributes you mean? Well, I do break bad in my spare time.😉 So there is that. 😃
 
Aside from my irreplaceable physical attributes you mean? Well, I do break bad in my spare time.😉 So there is that. 😃
On first glance I read that as “break beds” and I was like dude… no reason to disclose that… but good for you anyway. Impetuous. Homeric!
 
Okay, lets say for example my wife decides to go to a bar while I’m out of town to have a roll in the hay with a charismatic stud, and does so without using artificial contraception because she wants to have a child by this dude. Against all odds, this one time gets her pregnant, and she’s going to have a child.

Now say that I don’t what to consider this child mine, because, well, it isn’t. However, as the law would have it, I am presumed to be this child’s father because I am the mother’s husband.
If you do not want to be named the father, simply walk into the hospital when the child is born, state that you are not the father and why, and forbid the hospital to put your name on the certificate.
Apparently the amount of evidence required to overturn this presumption of paternity is rather high.
Nope. Have a DNA test performed. Problem solved.
Is this a law which is biased against men?
FWIW, yours truly is occasionally hired as an expert witness and testifies in court regarding asset division, almost always dealing with lots of money (7-8 figures). There is no bias in these cases from what I see. They’re gender neutral.
 
BEL said:

“And good luck finding a woman who is ok living as your wife forever after you tell her that you want her to live with you and care for you and your home, but that you don’t trust her to have legal rights. This is especially true after you explain that you don’t want her to work, and that she should trust you enough to risk homelessness.”

Exactly.

And even if you could find such a woman, the fact that she would agree to such an lopsided arrangement is a pretty clear indication that she is not clever enough to raise your children and deal with tradesmen on your behalf.

Really, do you want a woman who would settle for that marital deal talking to a plumber or a contractor in your absence?
 
FWIW, yours truly is occasionally hired as an expert witness and testifies in court regarding asset division, almost always dealing with lots of money (7-8 figures). There is no bias in these cases from what I see. They’re gender neutral.
So we have an expert witness, an attorney, a law student, and several people who have actually gone through the process of marriage and divorce themselves explaining the nuances behind the numbers to someone with no personal, professional, or educational experience in the area. Why do I feel like he still won’t believe it?
 
I have a hunch that a lot of this comes down to youthful fear and insecurity. It seems that he would rather have a marriage where his wife cannot leave, lest she face life on the streets helpless without him, than a marriage where he has to put his heart (and pride) on the line and trust. Of course his way would be easier, but it wouldn’t be real, and it would ultimately mean nothing. But let’s be honest, how many of us found the idea of that kind of trust and vulnerability scary and daunting before finding our spouses?
 
Also, I was struck by the fact that you love the idea of a Catholic marriage, but somehow, the idea of being legally married, even if you are both Catholics and agree to the Catholic view of marriage, disturbs you. I think that is something for you to take some time out at some point to think about. The problem you have with legal marriage seems to be an insecurity that your wife will take advantage of what you see as an unfair system and treat you unfairly. Now think about the beautiful vision of a Catholic marriage again, in such a marriage both spouses are completely and unconditionally tied and committed to the other. How, in such a marriage, can there be any room for such distrust of your wife that you fear being married legally? How can you honestly commit yourself unconditionally to someone if you do not trust them? Its impossible.These two ideas are incompatible. If you view and approach marriage as a Catholic you should not have this great fear and mistrust of being married legally, the two really are incompatible. Just something for you to think about.
Actually, this is similar to the concerns I have regarding my upcoming wedding. The thing many of you don’t appreciate as happily married people is that as an abstract marriage sounds like an incredibly risky activity. I marriage you are betting that you will be with that person forever, but if it fails you lose over half your stuff. Add to that that we know more divorced than married people (my parents, 1 uncle, and grandparents vs everyone else I know). Based on the experiences of those around me and the research I’ve done I’d say marriage is the riskiest thing we do. When it works out is the best thing ever, but I’d it doesn’t…

The other aspect is that you are basing it on who you and her currently are. I not the same guy from 10 years ago so how can I know a choice made today will still be right 20,30, or 40+ years later? It is uncertainty combined with worldly observations that color the OPs view.

But the important thing is that it changes when you meet the right woman. When you ask yourself about marrying that particular woman it changes drastically. I share similar concerns about when considering marriage to anyone else in my past but not my future wife. Perhaps it isn’t that the OP isn’t ready but rather he hasn’t meet the right one.
 
HerCrazierHalf said:

“Based on the experiences of those around me and the research I’ve done I’d say marriage is the riskiest thing we do. When it works out is the best thing ever, but I’d it doesn’t…”

Nah–driving or riding in a car is way riskier. That can kill you. But it sure beats walking or waiting for the bus…

“Perhaps it isn’t that the OP isn’t ready but rather he hasn’t meet the right one.”

Not unlikely.
 
I have a hunch that a lot of this comes down to youthful fear and insecurity. It seems that he would rather have a marriage where his wife cannot leave, lest she face life on the streets helpless without him, than a marriage where he has to put his heart (and pride) on the line and trust. Of course his way would be easier, but it wouldn’t be real, and it would ultimately mean nothing. But let’s be honest, how many of us found the idea of that kind of trust and vulnerability scary and daunting before finding our spouses?
I definitely think you are right that this is about an insecurity of the kind of commitment marriage entails. And that this very natural insecurity has been increased by being close to people who are bitter about their ex-wives and their divorces. That is why I asked him to think about the fact that he is against legal marriage even in the case of a Catholic marriage which he views as beautiful. Honestly, I get where he’s coming from in that I too come from a broken family (as, I know, do you BEL). It sucks, its no fun for anyone involved, even when it is necessary. And one of the many kinds of harm it causes is in making the children become more skeptical and afraid of making a commitment to others in marriage, or that they could ever trust somebody to uphold such a commitment, that anyone they marry would actually keep such a commitment. At least in that regard I have been blessed, despite the fact that my parents split up (due to infidelity and verbal/emotional abuse on my father’s side, even including one event which, though not entirely intentional we believe was the cause of my mothers epilepsy which later developed and led to her death) in having such an incomparable example of fidelity and commitment as I had in my mother. It didn’t matter what she went through, how wronged she had been, how hurt she was, how inexpressibly much she had suffered at my fathers hands, she had made a vow that she would remain committed to him for life, for better or worse, no matter what. So she never sought out another partner, she also refrained from turning us against our father by speaking bitterly about him, but rather simply told us he had made some mistakes and bad choices and we needed to pray for him so he could start making good ones. OP, this kind of unconditional commitment does exist. It exists, it is possible to find, and it is possible for yourself to hold to such a commitment. If you want to get married you need to learn to put aside your fears of marriage and commitment, your fears that the other may hurt you, and instead learn to value this kind of unconditional commitment, and work on making yourself into the kind of person who is capable of making such a commitment. I’m not gonna lie, marrying my husband was scary, even though I know that he is absolutely %1000 committed to the permanency of marriage, no matter what, because, well, what if he changes? what if things go wrong? What if he develops a mental illness which leads him to be abusive to me and our kids? None of these are things I can control for and so they are scary. But you want to know the reason I was still able to marry him despite all this? To still marry him happily and gladly and to embrace the possibility of any of these terrible things happening? I thought of my mother and her example, and of how amazingly beautiful and worthwhile a thing her commitment to my father was, and I realized that such a commitment was a thing well worth aspiring for, so when I made my vows it was with full recognition that even should the worst happen, my husband becomes an alcoholic, a drug addict, an abuser, whatever, it didn’t matter, I could pull through it with the combination of my knowledge of my commitment to him and my desire to follow Christ and his example of taking up our cross daily to follow him. Even in a Catholic marriage there are no assurances of marital felicity, nothing in this life is sure, but if we accept that and remember that as Christians we are called to live our lives for others and for Christ, carefully forming ourselves until we become an even better image of Christ in our treatment of others with love and respect, and choose our spouse carefully, then we should have no fear of taking on the huge commitment of marriage. Christ tells us to “be not afraid” in following his mission and path for us in life. We must, yes, take time to carefully discern, but once we see where we are supposed to be in life, what we are supposed to do, we are called to set aside our fears, and instead step out joyfully into the midst of the storm that is this life, putting our trust in God and lovingly accepting the crosses he sends our way. If marriage is your vocation, there is no room for this great fear and insecurity you have about it. I hope one day you can overcome this fear because marriage really is a wonderful and beautiful thing. God Bless.
 
Actually, this is similar to the concerns I have regarding my upcoming wedding. The thing many of you don’t appreciate as happily married people is that as an abstract marriage sounds like an incredibly risky activity. I marriage you are betting that you will be with that person forever, but if it fails you lose over half your stuff. Add to that that we know more divorced than married people (my parents, 1 uncle, and grandparents vs everyone else I know). Based on the experiences of those around me and the research I’ve done I’d say marriage is the riskiest thing we do. When it works out is the best thing ever, but I’d it doesn’t…

The other aspect is that you are basing it on who you and her currently are. I not the same guy from 10 years ago so how can I know a choice made today will still be right 20,30, or 40+ years later? It is uncertainty combined with worldly observations that color the OPs view.

But the important thing is that it changes when you meet the right woman. When you ask yourself about marrying that particular woman it changes drastically. I share similar concerns about when considering marriage to anyone else in my past but not my future wife. Perhaps it isn’t that the OP isn’t ready but rather he hasn’t meet the right one.
Oh no, I am all too well aware of the risks that come with marriage. My mother suffered so much because of my father and her marriage to him. I am fully aware of how scary it can be to commit yourself to someone when you have already seen how horribly, terribly wrong it can go. And those fears don’t magically disappear when you meet the right person. As I said in my latest post, even as I was engaged, even just a couple of weeks away from walking down the aisle, I was still hit with fears and insecurities, despite the fact that my husband is absolutely the only man for me, an amazing man, good, kind, generous, dedicated, religious, fun, cares for my good, sees his entire goal and purpose in life as being to make me happy, and most of all committed to the idea of the permanence of marriage and not just to the idea in general, but to marriage to me personally. The only way I overcame these insecurities is by seeing the beauty of making an unconditional commitment to someone else, and specifically seeing the beauty of that through the teachings of Christ’s Church in following Christ’s example of selfless love for the good of others. And now I’ve made that vow and commitment, and I don’t care how hard it becomes, I do not ever intend to break it under any circumstances whatsoever. Come hell or high water, sufferings of whatever kind this life throws at me, I made my vows and I meant them when I said them, so who cares what life throws at me, or how unfairly or poorly this world or my husband should ever end up treating me, I’ve made my commitment and I intend to stick to it, following the example of Christ, forgiving those who hurt me and loving all men to the best of my ability. That is the kind of attitude the OP should try to develop if he wishes to marry, not rest in insecurities and fears, they must be overcome.
 
If I’m getting the general direction of this thread right, a man such as me with money in the bank, a solid career in the works, time to be a good catholic, and time for recreation to keep me happy should not in any way be wary of the fact that the laws in the USA allow for a wife, without any reason whatsoever, with me remaining faithful, not abusive, and not agreeing to a divorce, to take “our” house, our kids, a lot of “our” money, alimony fees and legal fees, or put me into jail if I refuse all of this. And if I don’t like this risk, then I’m just prideful, or youthfully insecure?

“Oh but estevao, that’s a myth! You’re just ignorant of the millions of laws that regulate this divorce process you’re describing! It’s not like that, even if the only divorce case you’re familiar with is exactly like this, even if there’s innumerable stories just like this on the internet and on youtube, you only know 1/5 of what you need to know!”

Puhleeeezzzz!
 
If I’m getting the general direction of this thread right, a man such as me with money in the bank, a solid career in the works, time to be a good catholic, and time for recreation to keep me happy should not in any way be wary of the fact that the laws in the USA allow for a wife, without any reason whatsoever, with me remaining faithful, not abusive, and not agreeing to a divorce, to take “our” house, our kids, a lot of “our” money, alimony fees and legal fees. And if I don’t like this risk, then I’m just prideful, or youthfully insecure?

“Oh but estevao, you’re just ignorant of the millions of laws that regulate this divorce process you’re describing! It’s not like that, even if the only divorce case you’re familiar with is exactly like this, you only know 1/5 of what you need to know!”

Puhleeeezzzz!
Two things: Women these days usually earn money too. And even if they don’t, once again, it is still communal property. Regardless, men can also up and leave, and frequently do.

And based on what you’ve written about divorce laws, I would say that 1/5 is being generous. Please, go back and provide actual, factual, civil rebuttals and responses. Until you do, your complaints lack all credibility and foundation.
 
If I’m getting the general direction of this thread right, a man such as me with money in the bank, a solid career in the works, time to be a good catholic, and time for recreation to keep me happy should not in any way be wary of the fact that the laws in the USA allow for a wife, without any reason whatsoever, with me remaining faithful, not abusive, and not agreeing to a divorce, to take “our” house, our kids, a lot of “our” money, alimony fees and legal fees, or put me into jail if I refuse all of this. And if I don’t like this risk, then I’m just prideful, or youthfully insecure?

“Oh but estevao, that’s a myth! You’re just ignorant of the millions of laws that regulate this divorce process you’re describing! It’s not like that, even if the only divorce case you’re familiar with is exactly like this, even if there’s innumerable stories just like this on the internet and on youtube, you only know 1/5 of what you need to know!”

Puhleeeezzzz!
No, its that if you want to enter into a real marriage, whether secular or Catholic, but most especially in a Catholic marriage ( btw did you know that prenups are a no-no for Catholics?) the kind of distrust you show towards your future spouse has no place in marriage. If you don’t find someone you are willing, and would happily commit to and accept these risks for then the answer is simple Don’t get married!. However, if you do find such a person and discover that marriage is in fact your vocation you will need to overcome your fear and distrust of women and the current legal system. It really is as simple as that. 🤷
 
“If I’m getting the general direction of this thread right, a man such as me with money in the bank, a solid career in the works, time to be a good catholic, and time for recreation to keep me happy should not in any way be wary of the fact that the laws in the USA allow for a wife, without any reason whatsoever, with me remaining faithful, not abusive, and not agreeing to a divorce, to take “our” house, our kids, a lot of “our” money, alimony fees and legal fees, or put me into jail if I refuse all of this. And if I don’t like this risk, then I’m just prideful, or youthfully insecure?”

And you’d marry a woman who brought nothing to the table but a warm fertile body? She’d have no intelligence, no education, no interests, and no earning potential at all?

The woman you’re looking for also has money in the bank, a solid career, is a good Catholic (whether she has time for it or not) and has side interests. That’s pretty minimal, isn’t it? And yes, a woman like that is going to know her worth, just as you know yours, and will have a reasonably good idea of her legal rights.
 
So we have an expert witness, an attorney, a law student, and several people who have actually gone through the process of marriage and divorce themselves explaining the nuances behind the numbers to someone with no personal, professional, or educational experience in the area. Why do I feel like he still won’t believe it?
Add divorcee to the list. 😃

To top it all off, when I went through my divorce, I was holding all the cards. The big one was that I paid for her college education, and as a result I was entitled to compensation of her future earnings. I was extraordinarily fair to her, but when her very aggressive attorney got involved, I played the future earnings card. So she just settled and moved in with her boyfriend.
 
I definitely think you are right that this is about an insecurity of the kind of commitment marriage entails. And that this very natural insecurity has been increased by being close to people who are bitter about their ex-wives and their divorces. That is why I asked him to think about the fact that he is against legal marriage even in the case of a Catholic marriage which he views as beautiful. Honestly, I get where he’s coming from in that I too come from a broken family (as, I know, do you BEL). It sucks, its no fun for anyone involved, even when it is necessary. And one of the many kinds of harm it causes is in making the children become more skeptical and afraid of making a commitment to others in marriage, or that they could ever trust somebody to uphold such a commitment, that anyone they marry would actually keep such a commitment. At least in that regard I have been blessed, despite the fact that my parents split up (due to infidelity and verbal/emotional abuse on my father’s side, even including one event which, though not entirely intentional we believe was the cause of my mothers epilepsy which later developed and led to her death) in having such an incomparable example of fidelity and commitment as I had in my mother. It didn’t matter what she went through, how wronged she had been, how hurt she was, how inexpressibly much she had suffered at my fathers hands, she had made a vow that she would remain committed to him for life, for better or worse, no matter what. So she never sought out another partner, she also refrained from turning us against our father by speaking bitterly about him, but rather simply told us he had made some mistakes and bad choices and we needed to pray for him so he could start making good ones. OP, this kind of unconditional commitment does exist. It exists, it is possible to find, and it is possible for yourself to hold to such a commitment. If you want to get married you need to learn to put aside your fears of marriage and commitment, your fears that the other may hurt you, and instead learn to value this kind of unconditional commitment, and work on making yourself into the kind of person who is capable of making such a commitment. I’m not gonna lie, marrying my husband was scary, even though I know that he is absolutely %1000 committed to the permanency of marriage, no matter what, because, well, what if he changes? what if things go wrong? What if he develops a mental illness which leads him to be abusive to me and our kids? None of these are things I can control for and so they are scary. But you want to know the reason I was still able to marry him despite all this? To still marry him happily and gladly and to embrace the possibility of any of these terrible things happening? I thought of my mother and her example, and of how amazingly beautiful and worthwhile a thing her commitment to my father was, and I realized that such a commitment was a thing well worth aspiring for, so when I made my vows it was with full recognition that even should the worst happen, my husband becomes an alcoholic, a drug addict, an abuser, whatever, it didn’t matter, I could pull through it with the combination of my knowledge of my commitment to him and my desire to follow Christ and his example of taking up our cross daily to follow him. Even in a Catholic marriage there are no assurances of marital felicity, nothing in this life is sure, but if we accept that and remember that as Christians we are called to live our lives for others and for Christ, carefully forming ourselves until we become an even better image of Christ in our treatment of others with love and respect, and choose our spouse carefully, then we should have no fear of taking on the huge commitment of marriage. Christ tells us to “be not afraid” in following his mission and path for us in life. We must, yes, take time to carefully discern, but once we see where we are supposed to be in life, what we are supposed to do, we are called to set aside our fears, and instead step out joyfully into the midst of the storm that is this life, putting our trust in God and lovingly accepting the crosses he sends our way. If marriage is your vocation, there is no room for this great fear and insecurity you have about it. I hope one day you can overcome this fear because marriage really is a wonderful and beautiful thing. God Bless.
I’ll say that I skipped over this post before I made my last one, because you know…wall of text. But it’s very good. Honestly I hope you don’t think I have a grudge against women because all I’ve seen is women destroying marriages. I know men can be the cause of bad marriages as well, or perhaps both of them. I’m pretty sure I can place the blame for the broken home I grew up in on my father, and my mother died a bit recently so I can’t really talk to her about what it takes to keep going in a marriage with an abusive partner, although she didn’t file for divorce either, I’m guessing due to her catholic faith.

I guess I’ll be going from this thread now, as I believe I’ll be banned soon, and CAF seems to simply permaban right away. God bless you all.

Seriously though…5 star post, you answered the OP IMO. I wish this place had a reputation system so I could rep you.
 
Okay, lets say for example my wptesumption. to go to a bar while I’m out of town to have a roll in the hay with a charismatic stud, and does so without using artificial contraception because she wants to have a child by this dude. Against all odds, this one time gets her pregnant, and she’s going to have a child.

Now say that I don’t what to consider this child mine, because, well, it isn’t. However, as the law would have it, I am presumed to be this child’s father because I am the mother’s husband. Apparently the amount of evidence required to overturn this presumption of paternity is rather high.

Is this a law which is biased against men?

Perhaps it would be helpful to consider the contrary where a husband has a child with a woman that is not his wife. Is there a presumption of maternity for the wife because she is the wife of the father?
First what you are calling unfair law here is a “legal presumption.” There a million legal presumptons and the reason why they exist is because there is an inference of truth from fact that proves it more logical than not. Another legal presumption on the same line of what you are talking (which according to your logic then is unfair as is discrimination) is that if you have an inkury caused by an auto or a railroad that means that the driver of that car or railroaf is responsible for your injury. Then if you thonk that legal presumptions are so unfair then you are also suggeating that a driver of a car is not tespomsable for the injuries on someone that were caused by his car, right?
Another legal presumption is that criminally youvate considered innocent unless the contrary has been proved on trial…but wait I think according to you that is unfair so the right thing should be for police to just shoot people on the street and arrest anyone just because someone else said “hey that person commited crime go and take him” and no further investigation. Another presumption is if someone has been missing for a considerable period of time after diligent search and a certain period of years that person is considered death…but probably that is unfair and biased against the missing person because someone who had been missing with no trace for 20 years probably needs to still receive they employment check from their employer from 20 years ago despite that person has not worked or showed up for 20 years.
So it is not an “unfair biased law against men” it is a presumption that goes together with another set of many other presumptions that have nothing to do with discrimination against men instead on with an inference of truth based on logic.
 
I’m surprised no one has brought up Dalrock’s blog yet. Dalrock calls himself a happily married and committed Christian husband and father. At the same time, he is deeply concerned enough about the state of marriage that he has blogged about marriage, family and family law issues for over four years now. He has frequently referred to data to make his case that family court law is biased against men, that so-called mainstream Christians and Traditional Conservatives have aided and abetted that bias and that men are responding to the rearrangement of incentives, among other things. His comment sections can get pretty rough at times so I would strongly suggest to stay away from them. But his posts have been spot on.

I suggest starting here where he talks about the “Child Support Catastrophe”
dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/08/14/the-child-support-catastrophe/

Then read these:
dalrock.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/warn-men-beware-christian-marriage-doublespeak-and-hair-trigger-for-wife-initiated-divorce/

This one regarding the common denial that frivolous divorce by women exists:
dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/03/08/pathological-denial/

This one that cites data regarding the use of the threat of divorce and child support to force men under their headship.
dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/04/14/threatpoint/

Strongly suggest you follow the links in his articles to his other posts.

I will say this: if it seems that Dalrock is unremittingly negative about marriage in general, he does say he still supports it, but that it is extremely important for the man contemplating marriage to vet his prospective wife. This is because in light of today’s society that makes it easy and even encourages women to blow up their marriages, the only force holding a woman to her marriage is internal to her mind, that’s it. The man had better be able to discern her mind on this in order to lower his risk. He even talks about that here:

dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/interviewing-a-prospective-wife-part-ii/

My personal comment: I’m not against being married. Done with the right person, it would be great. But done with the wrong person, it is guaranteed to be a disaster. So I will discern my prospective fiance starting with that post. Think estevao would get a lot out of reading it too.

Now I grant that what Dalrock says is going to be extremely unpopular with many posters here at CAF. In which case, I invite you to go over there and sling your own data back at him. I’d pay to see that…
 
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