OF and EF: What's good about them? [edited]

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michaeldaniels said:
They are no better than each other in the sense that a Catholic is able to go to either and received The Most Blessed Sacrament…which is the Source and Summit of our Faith…but to deny that Mass of The Catechumens isn’t richer in words, prayers, and format over the Liturgy of the Word, one is either deaf, in denial, or just has some unwarranted dislike of the EF.
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The “Mass of The Catechumens” IS the Liturgy of the Word…

That said I see a very pernicious trend that is developing on these forums. It goes something like this:

Person #1: The Mass of the Ages (EF Mass) is superior to the NO (OF Mass.)

Person #2: Untrue. While we are all certainly entitled to our personal preferences there is absolutely no way the Church has provided the faithful with sacrificial liturgies that are objectively better or worse than others. If you want to make such a claim as if it’s fact and not your personal opinion please present some evidence from the Church that does not require your personal interpretation.

Person #1: Anyone who says the EF Mass isn’t richer in words, prayers, and format over the OF Mass is either deaf, in denial, or just has some unwarranted dislike of the EF.

Person #2: You made a claim. You were asked to substantiate it with facts. Your claim cannot be substantiated with facts so now you are resorting to an ad hominem attack. Sorry but no sale. We can see this sorta transition in discussion a mile away. Different sacrificial liturgies can (and do) nourish different people in very different ways but that does not mean one liturgy is superior to the other. That simple truth will not change.

Person #1: You just hate the EF Mass…

Person #2: Let’s stop the attempts to obfuscate. Actually I love the EF Mass. I just won’t accept personal preferences offered as fact when they are indeed non-factual.
 
malphono said:
Need I bother to say that I am in 100% disagreement with this?
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So? Tell me exactly what you would change in the current Missale to “improve” the EF?

The abuses that some people so love to talk about are in no way allowed by the current Roman Missale.
 
  1. I am aware that what is known as the Mass of the Catechumens is what is called the Liturgy of The Word in the NO
  2. I provided a translation which shows a richer liturgy found in the TLM
  3. They are changing the NO to be a more literal translation of the Latin, which must tell you something
Ghirardelli said:
The “Mass of The Catechumens” IS the Liturgy of the Word…

That said I see a very pernicious trend that is developing on these forums. It goes something like this:

Person #1: The Mass of the Ages (EF Mass) is superior to the NO (OF Mass.)

Person #2: Untrue. While we are all certainly entitled to our personal preferences there is absolutely no way the Church has provided the faithful with sacrificial liturgies that are objectively better or worse than others. If you want to make such a claim as if it’s fact and not your personal opinion please present some evidence from the Church that does not require your personal interpretation.

Person #1: Anyone who says the EF Mass isn’t richer in words, prayers, and format over the OF Mass is either deaf, in denial, or just has some unwarranted dislike of the EF.

Person #2: You made a claim. You were asked to substantiate it with facts. Your claim cannot be substantiated with facts so now you are resorting to an ad hominem attack. Sorry but no sale. We can see this sorta transition in discussion a mile away. Different sacrificial liturgies can (and do) nourish different people in very different ways but that does not mean one liturgy is superior to the other. That simple truth will not change.

Person #1: You just hate the EF Mass…

Person #2: Let’s stop the attempts to obfuscate. Actually I love the EF Mass. I just won’t accept personal preferences offered as fact when they are indeed non-factual.
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michaeldaniels said:
Just tell me how the Liturgy of The Word in the OF comes close to this…
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Because both were formulated and promulgated by the Catholic Church. Please reflect on that for a moment.

You can very correctly say that the EF nourishes you personally in a superior manner than does the OF. I would never take issue with that. We all have our personal preferences and that can equate to real differences in how we are spiritually nourished.

But to suggest either the OF or the EF is superior or inferior to the other? No way.
 
michaeldaniels said:
  1. I provided a translation which shows a richer liturgy found in the TLM
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No you did not. You presented part of the EF Mass which is most certainly DIFFERENT than the OF Mass. DIFFERENT but not “richer.”

You may personally perceive it as being “richer” (which is just fine) but you don’t express it as such. Instead of saying something like “in my opinion the EF is richer” you offer your personal opinion as if it’s objectively true. As something you have proven with facts and you have not.
 
This thread is titled: OF and EF: What’s good about them? So let’s stop the attacks of both the OF and EF Masses. :cool:
 
I think the OF Mass “options” are just great! We can decide whether to use things like sanctus bells, incense, different Eucharistic Prayers, etc. That’s one of the greatest strengths of the OF Mass in my opinion.

The abuses and irregularities we hear about and discuss are not a product of the new rubrics. They have come about *because people have chose to ignore the rubrics.
*
 
michaeldaniels said:
  1. They are changing the NO to be a more literal translation of the Latin, which must tell you something
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They are changing to a more literal translation of the Latin Editio typica of the OF. Which just means a more correct translation (more literal, less dynamic). As far as I can tell from looking at the USCCB site, the Liturgy is essentially (no, exactly) the same. They’ve just re-added some of the deeper theological language in some places, and rearranged the wording in others to be more a more literal translation.
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Ghirardelli:
I think the OF Mass “options” are just great! We can decide whether to use things like sanctus bells, incense, different Eucharistic Prayers, etc. That’s one of the greatest strengths of the OF Mass in my opinion.
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I agree. 👍
 
Ghirardelli said:
I think the OF Mass “options” are just great! We can decide whether to use things like sanctus bells, incense, different Eucharistic Prayers, etc. That’s one of the greatest strengths of the OF Mass in my opinion.
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At the risk of redundancy, need I say that I disagree 100%?
Ghirardelli said:
The abuses and irregularities we hear about and discuss are not a product of the new rubrics. They have come about *because people have chose to ignore the rubrics. *
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No, they are the by-product of the lack or looseness of rubrics, not to mention the lack or looseness of enforcement of what rubrics exist. :banghead:
 
malphono said:
No, they are the by-product of the lack or looseness of rubrics. :banghead:
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Let’s be frank and clear then. Point us to an abuse that is caused by the so-called “lack of looseness”. Words are just works unless you back them up.
 
curlycool89 said:
Let’s be frank and clear then. Point us to an abuse that is caused by the so-called “lack of looseness”. Words are just works unless you back them up.
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This has now become a carousel: around and around we go. Well, around and around you go. I’ve had enough rides. End of the line. No more tickets. BiBi …
 
malphono said:
No, they are the by-product of the lack or looseness of rubrics, not to mention the lack or looseness of enforcement of what rubrics exist.
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Again, so you say. Do you understand that your personal opinion does not necessarily equate to the truth?

Why should I accept your opinion as fact when you cannot provide any evidence to support your position?

I have seen, read about and discussed the ins and outs of a great many liturgical abuses. Absolutely all that I have seen contravene the current rubrics. Do you have exceptions contrary to what I have personally observed?

FURTHER, you have introduced an entirely NEW VARIABLE that is NOT a product of the EF Mass. The ENFORCEMENT of liturgical rubrics. That is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT discussion. Please do not try to co-mingle them as if they are one. They are not.
 
malphono said:
This has now become a carousel: around and around we go. Well, around and around you go. I’ve had enough rides. End of the line. No more tickets. BiBi …
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Do you realize what just took place?

Your offered your personal opinion as if it were proven fact. You were challenged on that and asked to substantiate your position. You couldn’t. Actually in more accurate language you did not.

You were asked again to substantiate your position and instead you gave us this posting. Please consider what your posting actually says and why some of us would not accept your personal opinion without substantiating facts.
 
Ghirardelli said:
I think the OF Mass “options” are just great! We can decide whether to use things like sanctus bells, incense, different Eucharistic Prayers, etc. That’s one of the greatest strengths of the OF Mass in my opinion.

The abuses and irregularities we hear about and discuss are not a product of the new rubrics. They have come about *because people have chose to ignore the rubrics.
*
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Some of what you mention (bells, incense) I think should be mandatory for the main Sunday Mass in a parish.

Others like how do communion, are indeed due to looseness in the rubrics, or at least, people interpreting them very, very loosely, such as the regular use of extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion.
 
Ghirardelli said:
Do you realize what just took place?

Your offered your personal opinion as if it were proven fact. You were challenged on that and asked to substantiate your position. You couldn’t. Actually in more accurate language you did not.

You were asked again to substantiate your position and instead you gave us this posting. Please consider what your posting actually says and why some of us would not accept your personal opinion without substantiating facts.
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Whoa! It might be a good idea to knock off the ad hominem arguments. It’s become tiring. Evidently you’re not familiar with the use of “IMO” but that’s not my problem. I need defend nothing further.

In the end, I care less what you either do or think. I’m out of this discussion. Not worth the typing.
 
malphono said:
While I’ve been to the Oratoire St-Jospeh, I haven’t been there for Mass. I’ve heard that it’s more the garden variety OF than anything else, and if so, it would be of no interest to me whatsoever. OTOH, I’ve heard good things about Basilique Notre-Dame and Notre-Dame de la Garde, but I don’t recall anyone saying if either celebrates ad orientem.Interestingly enough, I’ve heard nothing about la Cathédrale (Marie Reine-du-Monde). Perhaps on my next visit to Montréal.
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I’ve only been to weekday Mass at the Oratoire, and that in the Crypt except for a few times in the main basilica when the roof of the crypt was under repair. I don’t particularly like the main basilica on the inside. But I hear the music (organ, choir) are good at Sunday Mass.

Notre-Dame, never been to Mass there. I’ve only seen the funeral Mass of Pierre Trudeau on TV from there. The Cathedral is a smaller scale reproduction of St. Peters in Rome. The altar is the same configuration and appearance as well. I’ve been to weekday Mass there only. It is not ad orientum. I’ve seen the program in the pews for Sunday Solemn Mass, with choir, looks good, but in the vernacular. Have to hear it to know for sure.

The other place of interest is Ste-Marie-des-Deux-Montagnes just off the island to the North West (you can reach it by commuter train). It’s a women’s abbey, Benedictine, part of the Solesmes congregation. They do the OF Mass there, identical to Saint-Benoît-du-Lac (the Chaplain is from there), that is vernacular but with Gregorian propers and commons, but twice a week they do it entirely in Latin. I believe but am not certain, that it is OF.

The trappists at Oka (and now no longer there) have tossed Latin overboard completely, alas, except for the Salve Regina at Compline. The Cistercians at Rougement do everything in the vernacular except the Salve Regina, but they use simplified Gregorian tones.
 
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