Of Flags, Anthems, and Symbols

[Son_of_Niall]

Just something I noticed that needs to be said out loud because nobody else is.

Many evangelical and fundamentalist Christians refuse to kneel if they find themselves in a Catholic Church, are horrified at a Crucifix, statues, or a Catholic giving the sign of the Cross.

These same people, SAME PEOPLE, are going ballistic over an NFL player who refuses to stand for the national anthem and salute a flag.
Just sayin’…

 

[TheAtheist]

Just something I noticed that needs to be said out loud because nobody else is.

Many evangelical and fundamentalist Christians refuse to kneel if they find themselves in a Catholic Church, are horrified at a Crucifix, statues, or a Catholic giving the sign of the Cross.

These same people, SAME PEOPLE, are going ballistic over an NFL player who refuses to stand for the national anthem and salute a flag.
Just sayin’…

Isn’t this an Apples and Oranges issues though?

I am hardly an expert on Evangelical or Fundamnetalist Christianity (or any form of Christianity for that matter), but among the religious minded at least coming out the Semetic religious tradition, a faith commitment is an important thing.

Because their whole self-identity is brought up in contrast to your religion due to socio-historical circumstances, it doesn’t come as a surprise at all.

However, there doesn’t seem to be much opposition for people to hold a Religious and a National identity.

What they are objecting to re: Kaepernick is a lack of Patriotism - although frankly I think its too little, too late.

America, more or less, has been Balkanized at this point.

 

[JustaServant]

I’ve stayed out of this fray on social media because,
A. I haven’t watched pro football in years and no idea who Colin Whatsername is, nor do I care.
B. People seem to forget we do have the right in this nation not to stand or salute a symbol of the state. Christians are not state worshippers.
C. And yes, the irony is very clear.

 

[JustaServant]

Isn’t this an Apples and Oranges issues though?

I am hardly an expert on Evangelical or Fundamnetalist Christianity (or any form of Christianity for that matter), but among the religious minded at least coming out the Semetic religious tradition, a faith commitment is an important thing.

Because their whole self-identity is brought up in contrast to your religion due to socio-historical circumstances, it doesn’t come as a surprise at all.

However, there doesn’t seem to be much opposition for people to hold a Religious and a National identity.

What they are objecting to re: Kaepernick is a lack of Patriotism - although frankly I think its too little, too late.

America, more or less, has been Balkanized at this point.

The reference is to people who are screaming the loudest on social media. And they are people who object to religious symbolism, but seem make an exception for state symbolism. I do think it is a good point.

 

[TheAtheist]

The reference is to people who are screaming the loudest on social media. And they are people who object to religious symbolism, but seem make an exception for state symbolism. I do think it is a good point.

So… do evangelicals and fundamnetalists reject all forms of symbolism? Even a cross?

If they do, they sound much like the secular authorities in France…

 

[JustaServant]

So… do evangelicals and fundamnetalists reject all forms of symbolism? Even a cross?

If they do, they sound much like the secular authorities in France…

Not a cross, but a crucifix because it depicts a representation of Jesus. They also reject pictures, statues, or what liturgical traditions would refer to as ‘sacramentals.’ Such as holy water, priestly vestments, nun’s habits ect.
The point is, some symbols (secular) are more important than others (sacred).

 

[JonNC]

Just something I noticed that needs to be said out loud because nobody else is.

Many evangelical and fundamentalist Christians refuse to kneel if they find themselves in a Catholic Church, are horrified at a Crucifix, statues, or a Catholic giving the sign of the Cross.

These same people, SAME PEOPLE, are going ballistic over an NFL player who refuses to stand for the national anthem and salute a flag.
Just sayin’…

“I may disagree with what you say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.” -
Evelyn Beatrice Hall

If we are to defend one of the basic principles of American individual rights and liberty, we stand right here with his right to do this. Far too often in America are we seeing free speech limited by speech codes, “safe spaces”, “trigger warnings”, and other such
un-American intrusions.
ISTM the issue is not whether he has the right to not stand - he does! The issue then is only whether or not his argument for doing so, his rhetoric is valid.

Jon

 

[JustaServant]

“I may disagree with what you say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.” -
Evelyn Beatrice Hall

If we are to defend one of the basic principles of American individual rights and liberty, we stand right here with his right to do this. Far too often in America are we seeing free speech limited by speech codes, “safe spaces”, “trigger warnings”, and other such
un-American intrusions.
ISTM the issue is not whether he has the right to not stand - he does! The issue then is only whether or not his argument for doing so, his rhetoric is valid.

Jon

But Jon, that’s not what I am seeing. On Facebook for example people are bypassing the reasons he chose not to stand, and emphasizing the simple act of NOT standing. Childishly attacking his faith (he converted to Muslim), his family (they are Caucasian), the color of his skin (he’s biracial), and the money he makes. Without taking sides in the reasons he used, but simply pointing out that he had the right to do so (not stand) can be met with howls of protest from people who insist we need to honor a state symbol.
The OP is simply pointing out the hypocrisy.

 

[JMM1957]

Just something I noticed that needs to be said out loud because nobody else is.

Many evangelical and fundamentalist Christians refuse to kneel if they find themselves in a Catholic Church, are horrified at a Crucifix, statues, or a Catholic giving the sign of the Cross.

These same people, SAME PEOPLE, are going ballistic over an NFL player who refuses to stand for the national anthem and salute a flag.
Just sayin’…

How do you know these are the same people? Are you just assuming they are?

 

[JonNC]

But Jon, that’s not what I am seeing. On Facebook for example people are bypassing the reasons he chose not to stand, and emphasizing the simple act of NOT standing. Childishly attacking his faith (he converted to Muslim), his family (they are Caucasian), the color of his skin (he’s biracial), and the money he makes. Without taking sides in the reasons he used, but simply pointing out that he had the right to do so (not stand) can be met with howls of protest from people who insist we need to honor a state symbol.
The OP is simply pointing out the hypocrisy.

And I agree with the basic thrust of the OP. We can’t, for example, condemn the attempts to silence speech regarding man made climate change by some attorneys general on the one hand, then try to limit Kaepernick’s speech rights on the other.

Kaepernick has every right to sit during the national anthem, even if we view his reasons as flawed, as I do in part. Boo him at the game, if you choose, for his reasons, but not for his exercising his rights.

Jon

 

[on_the_hill]

I don’t have a problem with Kaepernick standing, or sitting, or whatever. The flag is a symbol of his right to do that.

(which is a Catch-22. The flag symbolizes freedoms, but to exercise the freedom is to be disrespectful to the flag, so you really don’t have those freedoms the flag represents.)

My objection is that his opinion is wrong. The U.S. isn’t governed by a system of Apartheid, as much as he might want to believe that it is.

Why do we even play the National Anthem before sporting events in the first place? There’s nothing particularly patriotic about a football game.

But that’s beside the point.

 

[JustaServant]

Why do we even play the National Anthem before sporting events in the first place? There’s nothing particularly patriotic about a football game.

But that’s beside the point.

You obviously didn’t grow up in a football town.
The practice started I believe in WW1.

 

[Padres1969]

The reference is to people who are screaming the loudest on social media. And they are people who object to religious symbolism, but seem make an exception for state symbolism. I do think it is a good point.

I don’t think it’s that they reject the religious symbolism per se, but rather the worship of idols. They see the crucifix, statues, paintings, etc… as items being worshipped rather than Christ himself with their existence in churches or prayers being offered in their presence. It’s the same reason they object to things like prayer for intercession from Mary or Saints, as they see it as Mary/Saint worship.

That doesn’t translate over to the national anthem or saluting the flag. They don’t see those as being worshiped by those actions, but rather simply showing respect by doing so. You’re not praying to the US flag or praying the national anthem.

 

[GKC]

I don’t think it’s that they reject the religious symbolism per se, but rather the worship of idols. They see the crucifix, statues, paintings, etc… as items being worshipped rather than Christ himself with their existence in churches or prayers being offered in their presence. It’s the same reason they object to things like prayer for intercession from Mary or Saints, as they see it as Mary/Saint worship.

That doesn’t translate over to the national anthem or saluting the flag. They don’t see those as being worshiped by those actions, but rather simply showing respect by doing so. You’re not praying to the US flag or praying the national anthem.

I would agree with this assessment.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

I don’t think it’s that they reject the religious symbolism per se, but rather the worship of idols. They see the crucifix, statues, paintings, etc… as items being worshipped rather than Christ himself with their existence in churches or prayers being offered in their presence. It’s the same reason they object to things like prayer for intercession from Mary or Saints, as they see it as Mary/Saint worship.

That doesn’t translate over to the national anthem or saluting the flag. They don’t see those as being worshiped by those actions, but rather simply showing respect by doing so. You’re not praying to the US flag or praying the national anthem.

You can’t see the near holy ‘reverence’ given to the American flag, standing for a hymn to the state (a rather war-like hymn), and talking about how the military ‘died for us’…you can’t see that as just as much ‘worship’ as those crucifixes, statues, paintings, etc they accuse Catholic of worshipping?
Seriously?
Maybe you better study ancient Rome, they had close to the same setup. And burned Christians as a result.
It’s fine and respectful to salute a flag, sing an anthem and respect the military. But I think we are way beyond that in this country. The right wing shows extreme vitriol for anyone who doesn’t wrap themselves in the flag of American nationalism.

 

[JustaServant]

I don’t think it’s that they reject the religious symbolism per se, but rather the worship of idols. They see the crucifix, statues, paintings, etc… as items being worshipped rather than Christ himself with their existence in churches or prayers being offered in their presence. It’s the same reason they object to things like prayer for intercession from Mary or Saints, as they see it as Mary/Saint worship.

That doesn’t translate over to the national anthem or saluting the flag.** They don’t see those as being worshiped by those actions, but rather simply showing respect by doing so. **You’re not praying to the US flag or praying the national anthem.

Ah, but the bolded is how we Catholics explain it to fundamentalists, and is instantly rejected by them.
That’s the irony of it.

 

[Padres1969]

You can’t see the near holy ‘reverence’ given to the American flag, standing for a hymn to the state (a rather war-like hymn), and talking about how the military ‘died for us’…you can’t see that as just as much ‘worship’ as those crucifixes, statues, paintings, etc they accuse Catholic of worshipping?
Seriously?
Maybe you better study ancient Rome, they had close to the same setup. And burned Christians as a result.
It’s fine and respectful to salute a flag, sing an anthem and respect the military. But I think we are way beyond that in this country. The right wing shows extreme vitriol for anyone who doesn’t wrap themselves in the flag of American nationalism.

Key word in your statement “near”. The reverence and respect given to the flag or standing for the national anthem is above what is given to say any other song, or any other flag, but it’s still not worship. Not in the same manner as is done in a church or that Catholics and some Protestants do when praying with a statue of the Blessed Virgin or Christ on the cross. Reverence and Respect are not Worship and Prayer. They see the use of statues, imagery, crucifixes and the accompany prayers done in their presence as crossing a line. For them it really is an apples and oranges comparison.

 

[Padres1969]

Ah, but the bolded is how we Catholics explain it to fundamentalists, and is instantly rejected by them.
That’s the irony of it.

As mentioned in my last, it’s still not an apples to apples comparison. Catholics and some Protestants (including my own parish I’d add) do more than respect and show reverence to and in the presence of the religious imagery, particular as it pertains to what’s in the church building. Prayers and worship are offered up in the presence of the images and the intercession of those the statues represent are called for.

Typically you don’t call on the US Flag or the country it represents to pray for you when you sing the national anthem or salute the flag.

 

[Michael68]

You can’t see the near holy ‘reverence’ given to the American flag, standing for a hymn to the state (a rather war-like hymn), and talking about how the military ‘died for us’…you can’t see that as just as much ‘worship’ as those crucifixes, statues, paintings, etc they accuse Catholic of worshipping?
Seriously?
Maybe you better study ancient Rome, they had close to the same setup. And burned Christians as a result.
It’s fine and respectful to salute a flag, sing an anthem and respect the military. But I think we are way beyond that in this country. The right wing shows extreme vitriol for anyone who doesn’t wrap themselves in the flag of American nationalism.

I think your confusing patriotism with worship. Two different things

 

[GKC]

I think your confusing patriotism with worship. Two different things

Yep.

Like some folks (as mentioned in this discussion) confuse dulia and latria.

A rough analogy, only, but serviceable, I think.