OF form Ad Orientem should be promoted more

  • Thread starter Thread starter a83192
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

a83192

Guest
I believe that the right step in the good direction would be for the OF form Mass to be Ad Orientem. The current setup of the Versus Populum is problematic because it is not consistent with Church tradition in my opinion.

Also The OF Mass should be said in Latin as well. Maybe the Entrance chant,opening prayer,and responsorial psalm can be said in Latin at the altar and the readings at the pulpit in the vernacular after having been said at the altar in latin.

Another good additin in my opinion would be for the servers to say the responses at the Altar instead of the whole congregation. Something more in line with the EF Mass. communion on the tongue and kneeling would be good too.

Can these additions be accomodated in the rubrics of the current Missal? If so how?

Anyone agree with me?
 
a83192 said:
I believe that the right step in the good direction would be for the OF form Mass to be Ad Orientem. The current setup of the Versus Populum is problematic because it is not consistent with Church tradition in my opinion.

Also The OF Mass should be said in Latin as well. Maybe the Entrance chant,opening prayer,and responsorial psalm can be said in Latin at the altar and the readings at the pulpit in the vernacular after having been said at the altar in latin.

Another good additin in my opinion would be for the servers to say the responses at the Altar instead of the whole congregation. Something more in line with the EF Mass. communion on the tongue and kneeling would be good too.

Can these additions be accomodated in the rubrics of the current Missal? If so how?

Anyone agree with me?
Click to expand...
Besides saying the readings from the altar, then the ambo, and “stopping” the congregation from saying/chanting the responses, I think all of these should be implemented in all parishes!
 
The problem with the free standing altar and the people facing priest is, that in 45 years there was not found appropriate place for the tabernacle.

Jesus is present there, the he shall be in the center, he shall be the focus of everything. Sometimes I even feel, that

Matt 18:20 [20] For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

means that in the as Pilate was judging in the name of Cesar, next to the insignia of the Cesar, we get together with under the insignia of our Lord, from which the most important is the Eucharist.

In the modern churches either the priest turns his back to our Lord, or our Lord as His real presence is set aside to somewhere, out of the attention and focus.

Our Pope in his previous book Spirit of Liturgy spend a great deal about the topic, and I pray to God, let him live long enough to establish a resolution to this problem.
 
a83192 said:
I believe that the right step in the good direction would be for the OF form Mass to be Ad Orientem. The current setup of the Versus Populum is problematic because it is not consistent with Church tradition in my opinion.

Also The OF Mass should be said in Latin as well. Maybe the Entrance chant,opening prayer,and responsorial psalm can be said in Latin at the altar and the readings at the pulpit in the vernacular after having been said at the altar in latin.

Another good additin in my opinion would be for the servers to say the responses at the Altar instead of the whole congregation. Something more in line with the EF Mass. communion on the tongue and kneeling would be good too.

Can these additions be accomodated in the rubrics of the current Missal? If so how?

Anyone agree with me?
Click to expand...
So, basically what you want is the EF of the Mass then? Why don’t you just go to the EF then?

There are some of us Catholics (actually, to be fair and honest it’s probably more like “the vast majority of anglophone Catholics”) who like the Mass in english, VP, everyone joining in the responses, and CITH while standing. And the Church is fine with that.

If that’s what you feel spiritually drawn to, then I wish you good luck with your looking. But, remember that not everyone is.
 
a83192 said:
I believe that the right step in the good direction would be for the OF form Mass to be Ad Orientem. The current setup of the Versus Populum is problematic because it is not consistent with Church tradition in my opinion.

Also The OF Mass should be said in Latin as well. Maybe the Entrance chant,opening prayer,and responsorial psalm can be said in Latin at the altar and the readings at the pulpit in the vernacular after having been said at the altar in latin.

Another good additin in my opinion would be for the servers to say the responses at the Altar instead of the whole congregation. Something more in line with the EF Mass. communion on the tongue and kneeling would be good too.

Can these additions be accomodated in the rubrics of the current Missal? If so how?

Anyone agree with me?
Click to expand...
All, with the exception of duplicating the readings, and the server-only responses, can be accommodated without any problem. The Novus Ordo rubrics presume ad orientem. Sacrocantam Concillium (as well as, among things, Veretum Saptientia of Bl PP John XXIII) calls for the retention of Latin. There’s really no reason to duplicate the readings, and even in the EF (at “High” Mass and at a “Dialogue Mass” at least) there’s nothing that prohibits the responses being made by the congregation as a whole.

I’ve said many times that ad orientem is probably the single most important thing to be restored. If we can manage that hurdle, the rest of the “reform of the reform” (which is basically what your “wish list” is) will flow organically.

Just my :twocents:
 
a83192 said:
I believe that the right step in the good direction would be for the OF form Mass to be Ad Orientem. The current setup of the Versus Populum is problematic because it is not consistent with Church tradition in my opinion.

Also The OF Mass should be said in Latin as well. Maybe the Entrance chant,opening prayer,and responsorial psalm can be said in Latin at the altar and the readings at the pulpit in the vernacular after having been said at the altar in latin.

Another good additin in my opinion would be for the servers to say the responses at the Altar instead of the whole congregation. Something more in line with the EF Mass. communion on the tongue and kneeling would be good too.

Can these additions be accomodated in the rubrics of the current Missal? If so how?

Anyone agree with me?
Click to expand...
I agree with some of your proposals. I certainly agree with the priest celebrating ad orientem. I would not object to the use of some Latin in the Mass. I am perfectly happy to worship in a language that I understand. I would no more want the whole Mass in Latin than I would want it in Mandarin.

I believe the readings should be read from the ambo rather than the altar. I believe it is good symbolism to have the readings read at a separate place than where the Eucharist is celebrated.

I personally believe that all present at Mass should take an active part in Mass rather than be present as a sort of audience.

While I fully believe that in many places the OF Roman Rite Mass can be celebrated much better and with greater reverence. However, I think what you are describing in all but name the EF Roman Rite Mass.
 
malphono said:
I’ve said many times that ad orientem is probably the single most important thing to be restored.
Click to expand...
I agree. The celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass should be done ad orientem, since the rubrics call for it. The exception, perhaps, is when the church is occidented, so that ad orientem is versus populum, though that might just cause more confusion.
 
In Anglican Use parishes the priest faces ad orietem. Ususally the Mass is sung and all in English, except the Kyrie can be done in either English or Latin. Also it depends on the Mass settings, sometimes the Creed and Gloria are sung in Latin.

At the Gospel it is traditional at Solemn Masses for the Gospel to be sung from the center aisle a little ways from the sanctuary. They process with candles, crucifix and then incense the Gospel. It is a quite beautiful ceremony, symbolic of bringing the Gospel to the people.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
 
a83192 said:
I believe that the right step in the good direction would be for the OF form Mass to be Ad Orientem. The current setup of the Versus Populum is problematic because it is not consistent with Church tradition in my opinion.

Also The OF Mass should be said in Latin as well. Maybe the Entrance chant,opening prayer,and responsorial psalm can be said in Latin at the altar and the readings at the pulpit in the vernacular after having been said at the altar in latin.

Another good additin in my opinion would be for the servers to say the responses at the Altar instead of the whole congregation. Something more in line with the EF Mass. communion on the tongue and kneeling would be good too.

Can these additions be accomodated in the rubrics of the current Missal? If so how?

Anyone agree with me?
Click to expand...
Perhaps a look at Church history should be made. I believe, though I could be wrong, that the Mass in Rome was said ‘Versus Populum’ before it was said ‘Ad Orientem’. As for latin, wasn’t the original language of the Mass greek, because that is what everyone was speaking? When the use of greek declined, it was changed to latin, because that is what people were speaking. Thus was the bible translated to latin, so people could understand it (Vulgate = vulgar = vernacular). The Church has always done this. How was the Mass said before The Counsel of Trent? It seems, from the documents, that there were many different ways. Did any of these ways invalidate the Mass? It would seem from the Eucharistic miracles throughout Church history that they did not. And the same is true today.

IMO, you are letting yourself be distracted by things that have little, or no, importance. Granted, you said that it is only your opinion, but may I ask, with charity, should your opinion be forced on the whole Church?

And what of obedience?
 
BernadetteM said:
In Anglican Use parishes the priest faces ad orietem. Ususally the Mass is sung and all in English, except the Kyrie can be done in either English or Latin. Also it depends on the Mass settings, sometimes the Creed and Gloria are sung in Latin.

At the Gospel it is traditional at Solemn Masses for the Gospel to be sung from the center aisle a little ways from the sanctuary. They process with candles, crucifix and then incense the Gospel. It is a quite beautiful ceremony, symbolic of bringing the Gospel to the people.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette
Click to expand...
Yes, my experiences at Anglican Use liturgies were similarly beautiful. I think you mean, by the way, the Kyrie is sung in English or Greek. 🙂
 
BernadetteM said:
In Anglican Use parishes the priest faces ad orietem.
Click to expand...
So I’ve noticed in the few vids that I’ve seen. 👍
BernadetteM said:
At the Gospel it is traditional at Solemn Masses for the Gospel to be sung from the center aisle a little ways from the sanctuary. They process with candles, crucifix and then incense the Gospel. It is a quite beautiful ceremony, symbolic of bringing the Gospel to the people.
Click to expand...
This is quite reminiscent of the general Eastern and Oriental custom, where the Gospel is sung (or read, depending) facing the congregation with a similar ceremony. (Where an iconistatis is traditional, the Holy Doors are opened. Where it is not, the priest (or, more properly, the deacon) stands on the first step.) In fact, it also reflects the more ancient Western custom too.
 
stephraim said:
Yes, my experiences at Anglican Use liturgies were similarly beautiful. I think you mean, by the way, the Kyrie is sung in English or Greek. 🙂
Click to expand...
Sorry about that, yes of course it is in Greek. I was thinking of the Angus Dei, but wrote the Kyrie instead.

God Bless

Bernadette
 
malphono said:
All, with the exception of duplicating the readings, and the server-only responses, can be accommodated without any problem. The Novus Ordo rubrics presume ad orientem. Sacrocantam Concillium (as well as, among things, Veretum Saptientia of Bl PP John XXIII) calls for the retention of Latin. There’s really no reason to duplicate the readings, and even in the EF (at “High” Mass and at a “Dialogue Mass” at least) there’s nothing that prohibits the responses being made by the congregation as a whole.

I’ve said many times that ad orientem is probably the single most important thing to be restored. If we can manage that hurdle, the rest of the “reform of the reform” (which is basically what your “wish list” is) will flow organically.

Just my :twocents:
Click to expand...
I agree. I attend the EF Mass so I was wondering and hoping wether such a thing could happen in the OF form.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top