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Florida123
Guest
Will the OF Mass survive the next 100 years or will the EF form become the main Mass of the church again judging from the growth of the FSSP and SSPX?
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YoungTradCath
Guest
No one knows the answer to that. The pope himself has expressed discontent with the Ordinary Form, to be sure, though. There is more of a distinction between the EF and the OF than just language. There are cosmically massive differences in prayers and rubrics. I would like to see a restoration of many of the prayers, songs, and rubrics of the EF.
I do believe that Latin is on its way back into common use, somewhere a bit off, but not too far off (50 years, max.), perhaps not in the whole mass, but a majority of it. I don’t see what was so wrong with EF masses with the readings re-read in the vernacular and the homily in the vernacular.
I do believe that Latin is on its way back into common use, somewhere a bit off, but not too far off (50 years, max.), perhaps not in the whole mass, but a majority of it. I don’t see what was so wrong with EF masses with the readings re-read in the vernacular and the homily in the vernacular.
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NewsTheMan
Guest
Who knows? I predict a resurgence in the Latin Mass. Papa Benedict has laid the groundwork - a time for the Latin Mass to flourish is near. The fate of the OF rests in the hands of our Church leaders.
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Te_Deum
Guest
I think it depends on the immediate future and how invested Rome is in maintaining the Extraordinary Form as a living liturgy of the Church. We’ll see how the rumoured update of the 1962 Missal (prefaces, calendars etc.) goes.
I think at best we can expect (and hope) for the Ordinary Form to be brought very much in line with the liturgy actually envisioned by the Second Vatican Council.
Either way I don’t think the Ordinary Form as it exists today will survive for one hundred years. Or I pray that it doesn’t.
I think at best we can expect (and hope) for the Ordinary Form to be brought very much in line with the liturgy actually envisioned by the Second Vatican Council.
Either way I don’t think the Ordinary Form as it exists today will survive for one hundred years. Or I pray that it doesn’t.
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promethius
Guest
Generally, I see the OF becoming more conservative with less local abuses as the younger priests who were properly instructed in good seminaries replace the 60’s and 70’s priests (not all of them are bad, but we’ve got to realize that these decades produced a large number of those involved in abuse, either liturgical or physical). I also generally see the EF and the OF as going to converge on one another until there is no OF/EF distinction… which would ultimately be best for the church, because this divided effort thing is just horrible.
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ProVobis
Guest
I see the vernaculars in the OF (English vs Spanish vs Polish vs…) as being more divisive than whether it’s OF/EF. It would be different if Latin were actually some national language of a large country. Just my opinion.
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promethius
Guest
Actually since the original impetus for changing the liturgy from hebrew, greek, and aramaic was precisely BECAUSE latin was the vernacular of the time, I don’t tend to regard vernacular as an issue.
What I regard as an issue is the fact that there are seperate liturgies where the anchoring elements of the church who should be the FIRST in line to help combat abuses by poorly catechized priests instead sequester themselves off from the church and their duty to be part of ONE body. The reason abuse can run rampant is because those who stood and do stand against local liturgical invention have been abandoned in the cause of protecting the liturgy.
In other words, I don’t blame the state of abusive OF masses on liberals or the priests… I blame those situations squarely on those who should be there helping OF conservatives rather than running away.
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Cat
Guest
Interesting discussion.
I am only posting my own opinion, based on my observations in my area of the world (Northern Illinois, U.S.A). Also keep in mind that I am a convert to Catholicism from evangelical Protestantism, which I think impacts my interpretation of Catholic culture. Finally, keep in mind that our city has had a Latin Mass parish for over a decade, and it has a small congregation of around 400 people. Although those people are enthusiastic about the Latin Mass (and I am friends with several of them), the congregation can not be described as “growing.” This personal experience with Latin Mass parish has greatly influenced my opinion on the OP’s question.
I see things just the opposite from what many of you see. I believe that the Latin Mass will eventually be discontinued, except for one Mass per year in each diocese to commemorate Catholic heritage (much like “Founders’ Day” celebrations in Protestant fellowships).
I think that the vernacular Mass will continue to be the norm, and that the ancient music styles, especially chant, will be phased out and replaced with more contemporary music, along with traditional hymns, all in the vernacular.
I believe that the emphasis for future priests in seminaries in the near future will be not on learning the Latin Mass, but rather, on learning how to be excellent homilists and teachers, for that is the biggest need in Christianity today in the U.S.–catechesis. So many Christians, not just Catholics, but Protestants also, know little to nothing about their faith, and rely on “feelings” rather than facts. No wonder there is so much attrition from the Church. A bad mood can cause someone to “quit the church,” while a pretty song can cause someone else to “join the church.”
I also think that priests will be taught more business and management skills, especially sound accounting practices, and also management skills pertaining to staffing issues.
Finally, I think that priests will be taught more counselling skills, since people nowadays expect to hear more than “pray” or “attend Mass” when they seek counsel from a priest.
I think that we will see this all happen within the next ten years.
Should we all meet back here again in ten years and discuss who nailed it?
I am only posting my own opinion, based on my observations in my area of the world (Northern Illinois, U.S.A). Also keep in mind that I am a convert to Catholicism from evangelical Protestantism, which I think impacts my interpretation of Catholic culture. Finally, keep in mind that our city has had a Latin Mass parish for over a decade, and it has a small congregation of around 400 people. Although those people are enthusiastic about the Latin Mass (and I am friends with several of them), the congregation can not be described as “growing.” This personal experience with Latin Mass parish has greatly influenced my opinion on the OP’s question.
I see things just the opposite from what many of you see. I believe that the Latin Mass will eventually be discontinued, except for one Mass per year in each diocese to commemorate Catholic heritage (much like “Founders’ Day” celebrations in Protestant fellowships).
I think that the vernacular Mass will continue to be the norm, and that the ancient music styles, especially chant, will be phased out and replaced with more contemporary music, along with traditional hymns, all in the vernacular.
I believe that the emphasis for future priests in seminaries in the near future will be not on learning the Latin Mass, but rather, on learning how to be excellent homilists and teachers, for that is the biggest need in Christianity today in the U.S.–catechesis. So many Christians, not just Catholics, but Protestants also, know little to nothing about their faith, and rely on “feelings” rather than facts. No wonder there is so much attrition from the Church. A bad mood can cause someone to “quit the church,” while a pretty song can cause someone else to “join the church.”
I also think that priests will be taught more business and management skills, especially sound accounting practices, and also management skills pertaining to staffing issues.
Finally, I think that priests will be taught more counselling skills, since people nowadays expect to hear more than “pray” or “attend Mass” when they seek counsel from a priest.
I think that we will see this all happen within the next ten years.
Should we all meet back here again in ten years and discuss who nailed it?
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ConstantineTG
Guest
God asks us not to worry about the future, there are a lot of worry we need to face today. The current Pope has no intention to do away with the OF. Who knows what the successive Popes will do.
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rfpapcun
Guest
I believe that the Latin Mass will eventually be discontinued, except for one Mass per year in each diocese to commemorate Catholic heritage (much like “Founders’ Day” celebrations in Protestant fellowships).
That’s fine, except that mainline Catholics are contracepting themselves into oblivion. The farther one goes to the Catholic left, the fewer the children.
That’s fine, except that mainline Catholics are contracepting themselves into oblivion. The farther one goes to the Catholic left, the fewer the children.
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dixieagle
Guest
I think one needs to remember that one can be an “orthodox” Catholic without necessarily being a “traditional” Catholic, e.g., preferring the Latin Mass. Our small archdiocese has a very small “traditional” Catholic community yet produces a good number of priests, virtually all of them very orthodox, from parishes where only the OF is celebrated.
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OraLabora
Guest
I don’t think chant will disappear. It may never regain common use in the parishes but let us not forget the thriving monastic traditions of the Church, where chant not only has pride of place but is one of the anchors of the liturgy.
Among monastic orders, the abbeys conserving chant seem to be doing the best for vocations; in particular the Solesmes congregation of the Benedictine order seems to be able to attract young men. Solesmes and St. Wandrille in France both use Gregorian chant daily and celebrate the OF Mass in Latin, with Gregorian chant. Not a huge number, but each abbey has a solid number of men in their 40s or younger, and a couple of postulants and novices. At the abbey I am associated with, we have, out of 40 or so monks, 1 postulant in his 20s, and last year we had three solemn professions of men in their 30s, and one simple profession of a monk in his 20s. On the other hand the local Trappists who largely gave up chant have not been doing so well. And of the abbeys of the Solesmes congregation that have the most vibrant vocations, is Fontgombault, which uses the EF Mass and pre-Vatican II Benedictine breviary (the post-Vatican II breviary has the same psalm ordering but the prayers, etc, are identical to the post-Vatican II LOTH with a few minor exceptions).
In some Benedictine monasteries that have adopted the vernacular liturgy, modal plainchant is still used, adapted to the vernacular. A good example is Westminster Abbey in New Westminster, BC, Canada. You can hear a sample here. The hymn tone for example, is identical to the week 1 tone for weekdays in Latin.
Then there are the Carthusians, also with their own chant forms both in Latin and the vernacular. Three years ago, the community of St-Martin in France released the first complete diurnal antiphonary for the 4-week LOTH with chant notation for Latin Gregorian chant. Last year Solesmes released the first complete volume of the official Roman Antiphonary, covering Vespers for Sundays and feasts all in Latin Gregorian chant.
Chant will only disappear from the Church if and only if the monastic orders die out. And should that day ever occur, the Church will have bigger problems on its hands than the musical forms it uses.
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Cat
Guest
Yes, of course this is true. A special community will continue to use the music that is unique to that community.
But most Catholics in the U.S> don’t have the privilege of regularly attending Mass in a monastery, so I stick by what I said, with an amendment–in regular neighborhood parishes, chant will not be done except on rare occasions.
It’s a question of knowledge. Schoolchildren in both secular and pacrochial settings are not getting a good enough music education to sing chant well, and if it’s not sung well, chant is particularly unpleasant to the Western (American) ear. Americans prefer melody and rhythm, and chant has neither. So even if the Church continues to state that it is the preferred music of the Mass, it won’t matter–if people can’t sing it, it won’t be done. You can’t get blood out of a stone, and you can’t get chant out of those who don’t even know how to sing.
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Cat
Guest
First, I think there is quite a difference between “the Catholic left” and “Catholics who prefer the OF Mass.”
Second, I think that it is a stretch to assume that the only Catholics who are having large families are those who are devoted to the Latin Mass. We have very reverent and abuse-free OF Masses in the parishes in our city, including my parish. And there are quite a few large families in our parishes, especially in my parish. I know of several families who have 8 or more children, and seeing families with 5 or more children is common in my parish.
I also think it is a stretch to assume that the only Christians having large families are Catholic Christians. Up until 2004, my husband and I were evangelical Protestant, and we can attest that there was a trend to “fill the quiver.” Our pastor had 8 children, our associate pastor had 7 children, and the lead elder in our church had 8 children. Our best friends in the church had 6 children and were open to having more. Back then, we read several articles advocating large families for Christians, and abandoning artifical birth control in favor of NFP.
So once again, Catholics who love the Latin Mass are not the only Christians having many children.
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OraLabora
Guest
I agree, the monastery I mentioned above uses the OF Mass, and there are many very conservative people who attend (and are oblates). Then there are some like myself who refuse any label except “faithful Catholic”. And for me, an OF Mass with chanted Latin Propers and Ordinary (and Greek Kyrie of course) and chanted EP, collects, intercessions, and readings in French, incense, bells, etc. works just fine. No need to seek out an EF Mass for spiritual nourishment.
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MartyrForJesus
Guest
I don’t think so, to be honest. I just don’t think that type of liturgy could last that long, however I could be wrong so have mercy. I think it one of two options will eventually happen:
A) The Holy Father will create a comprimise Liturgy between the EF and the OF.
B) The Latin Mass will be re-introduced as the Ordinary Form, however I don’t think this will be likely.
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OraLabora
Guest
Or the Vatican can simply put its foot down on the issue of OF abuses. Then let the OF be what Vatican II intended it to be. Not what some “innovative” liturgists twisted it into.
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Cat
Guest
I think this would be the very best solution. It would end a lot of conflicts and make for a more unified Christianity, which is what the Lord Jesus prayed for.
I’m not sure this would be acceptable to those who love the Latin Mass, though. I fear what could happen if people get their love for the Latin Mass out of proportion to their love for their Lord Jesus. But I’m sure that most Catholics would be obedient to Holy Mother Church and my fears are just silly.
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corsair
Guest
I agree with you. Truelight.
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