# of mortal sins we are allowed

  • Thread starter Thread starter notredame_999
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
N

notredame_999

Guest
According to Father Gruner at the Fatima Challenge, God allows us only so many mortal sins before we are sent to hell. He said it varies for each person and some are only allowed one. I was interested if anyone had ever heard of this before? Was it a pre-Vatican II doctrine? I respect him but I don’t know about this. On one hand I kind of agree with him, because I think a lot of people confess the same mortal sin over and over again. This is especially true I believe with some men like myself regarding masturbation. God certainly detests it. And it also matches up with St. Leonard of Port Maurice and his Sermon on so few saved. Yet on the other hand, doesn’t God always leave the door open for a TRUE repentance?
 
I have never heard anything like this before…sounds like Jansenism to me.

"…because I think a lot of people confess the same mortal sin over and over again."

As well they should! Yep, over and over and over, until, with God’s grace, they have overcome that sin.

The Church exists for sinners and we are all sinners.

I would speak to a holy priest that you know who has a reputation as a good confessor and get this sorted out FAST!

I’m serious! This is the kind of talk that can drive a person, struggling to lead a holy life to despair and that is not what God’s mercy is all about.
 
We were told to forgive each other seventy times seven times. How many times does the Father forgive, I don’t honestly know. But I know that each time I go to Reconciliation I am 100% forgiven my sins. However, it may mean that you will spend much longer in purgatory for having a great number of sins…
 
notredame_999 said:
According to Father Gruner at the Fatima Challenge, God allows us only so many mortal sins before we are sent to hell. He said it varies for each person and some are only allowed one. I was interested if anyone had ever heard of this before? Was it a pre-Vatican II doctrine? I respect him but I don’t know about this. On one hand I kind of agree with him, because I think a lot of people confess the same mortal sin over and over again. This is especially true I believe with some men like myself regarding masturbation. God certainly detests it. And it also matches up with St. Leonard of Port Maurice and his Sermon on so few saved. Yet on the other hand, doesn’t God always leave the door open for a TRUE repentance?
Click to expand...
If what he said is as you’ve reported it, that sounds like heresy. Compare the Baltimore Catechism:
422. Does the sacrament of Penance, worthily received, always take away all punishment?

The sacrament of Penance, worthily received, always takes away all eternal punishment; but it does not always take away all temporal punishment.
 
This priest is wrong. God’s is always willing to forgive you, even if you commit the same sin multiple times, but you must be contrite (meaning, in part, that you intend at the time of your confession to not repeat the same sin, and you regret committing the sin). The only sin that cannot be forgiven is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (CCC 1864), which basically means you die unrepentant of your mortal sins, thus rejecting forgiveness and salvation.
 
Sounds like someone taking 77 x 7 too literally. That on sin number 540 we go to hell. No, this isn’t traffic court that after getting enough points, you get your license taken away. God is infinitely merciful to those who seek His mercy.
 
I stand before God with nothing to offer him except my sin. I possess no means by which I may enter heaven. God does not owe me heaven or paradise. I am sinful and God may do with me as he pleases. And it pleases God, so Jesus has told us, to forgive us and to have mercy upon us. Sin is not God’s concern. It is our concern. How many mortal sins does God allow is a nonsensical question because it would seem to place a limit on God’s love. How many mortal sins do I allow myself is more to the point and reveals the width and depth of my love for God. And yet, if my whole life is one sin after another and in the end I stand before God with sincere sorrow in my heart, I believe I will be forgiven. Nothing can limit the love and mercy of God, though Satan would have you believe otherwise. I am allowed no mortal sins, but neither am I allowed to place limits on who to or whether or how many times God will grant his mercy.
 
ON THE NUMBER OF SINS BEYOND WHICH GOD PARDONS NO MORE
“Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God” – Matt., 4:7

A sermon by St. Alphonsus Mary De Ligouri (1696-1787), Bishop and Doctor of the Church. St. Francis Jerome, when he visited the parents of St. Alphonsus shortly after his birth, made this prophecy: “This child will be blessed with length of days; he shall not see death before his ninetieth year; he will be a bishop and will do great things for Jesus Christ.” This prophecy certainly came true. One of the most accomplished of all the saints is Alphonsus Liguori. He was a lawyer in both civil and Church law before he dedicated his whole life to serving God. He was founder of a religious order, author of more than a hundred books, originator of modern moral theology, renowned preacher and confessor, bishop, musical composer and painter. For all of his 91 years on earth, he was also a man of prayer and deep personal holiness. He gives an example of true Christian living that all of us would do well to follow. Now his sermon:

In this day’s Gospel we read that having gone into the desert, Jesus Christ permitted the Devil to set Him on the pinnacle of the temple and say to Him: “If Thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down”; for the angels shall preserve Thee from all injury. But the Lord answered that in the Sacred Scriptures it is written: Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. The sinner who abandons himself to sin without striving to resist temptations, or without at least asking God’s help to conquer them, and hopes that the Lord will one day draw him from the precipice, tempts God to work miracles, or rather to show to him an extraordinary mercy not extended to the generality of Christians.

God, as the Apostle says, “will have all men to be saved” – I Tim. 2:4; but He also wishes us all to labor for our own salvation, at least by adopting the means of overcoming our enemies, and of obeying Him when He calls us to repentance. Sinners hear the calls of God, but they forget them, and continue to offend Him. But God does not forget them. He numbers the graces which He dispenses, as well as the sins which we commit. Hence, when the time which He has fixed arrives, God deprives us of His graces, and begins to inflict chastisement. I intend to show in this discourse that when sins reach a certain number, God pardons no more. Be attentive.
  1. St. Basil, St. Jerome, St. John Chrysostom, St. Augustine and other fathers, teach, that as God according to the words of Scripture, “Thou hast ordered all things in measure, and number, and weight” – Wis. 11:21 has fixed for each person the number of the days of his life, and the degrees of health and talent which He will give him, so He has also determined for each the number of sins which He will pardon; and when this number is completed, He will pardon no more.
  2. “The Lord hath sent me to heal the contrite of heart” – Isa. 61:1 God is ready to heal those who sincerely wish to amend their lives, but cannot take pity on the obstinate sinner. The Lord pardons sins, but He cannot pardon those who are determined to offend Him. Nor can we demand from God a reason why He pardons one a hundred sins, and takes others out of life and sends them to Hell, after three or four sins. By His Prophet Amos, God has said: “For three crimes of Damascus, and for four, I will not convert it” – 1:3. In this we must adore the judgments of God, and say with the Apostle: “O the depth of the riches, of the wisdom, and of the knowledge of God! How incomprehensible are His judgments” – Rom. 11:33. He who receives pardon, says St. Augustine, is pardoned through the pure mercy of God; and they who are chastised, are justly punished. How many has God sent to Hell for the first offense? St. Gregory relates, that a child of five years, who had arrived at the use of reason, for having uttered a blasphemy, was seized by the Devil and carried to Hell. The divine Mother revealed to that great servant of God, Benedicta of Florence, that a boy of twelve years was damned after the first sin. Another boy of eight years died after his first sin, and was lost. You say: I am young; there are many who have committed more sins than I have. But is God on that account obliged to wait for your repentance if you offend Him? In the Gospel of St. Matthew (21:19), we read that the Savior cursed a fig tree the first time He saw it without fruit. “May no fruit grow on thee henceforward forever. An immediately the fig tree withered away.” You must, then tremble at the thought of committing a single mortal sin, particularly if you have already been guilty of mortal sins.
 
  1. “Be not without fear about sin forgiven, and add not sin to sin” – Eccl. 5:5. Say not then, O sinner: “As God has forgiven me other sins, so He will pardon me this one if I commit it.” Say not this; for, if to the sin which has been forgiven you add another, you have reason to fear that this new sin shall be united to your former guilt, and that thus the number will be completed, and that you shall be abandoned. Behold how the Scripture unfolds this truth more clearly in another place. “The Lord patiently expecteth, that when the day of judgment shall come, He may punish them in the fullness of sins” – II. Mac. 6:14. God waits with patience until a certain number of sins is committed but, when the measure of guilt is filled up, He waits no longer, but chastises the sinner. “Thou hast sealed up my offenses as it were in a bag” – Job 14:17. Sinners multiply their sins without keeping any account of them; but God numbers them, that, when the harvest is ripe, that is, when the number of sins is completed, He may take vengeance on them. “Put ye in the sickles, for the harvest is ripe” Joel 3:13.
  2. Of this there are many examples in the Scriptures. Speaking of the Hebrews, the Lord in one place says: “All the men that have tempted Me now ten times. . . .shall not see the land” – Num. 14:22, 23. In another place, He says, that He restrained His vengeance against the Amorrhites, because the number of their sins was not completed. “For as yet the iniquities of the Amorrhites are not at the full” – Gen. 15:16. We have again the example of Saul who, after having disobeyed God a second time, was abandoned. He entreated Samuel to interpose before the Lord in his behalf. “Bear, I beseech thee, my sin, and return with me, that I may adore the Lord” – I Kings 15:25. But, knowing that God had abandoned Saul, Samuel answered: “I will not return with thee, because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, and the Lord hath rejected thee,” etc. – 5:26. Saul, you have abandoned God, and He has abandoned you. We have another example in Balthassar, who, after having profaned the vessels of the Temple, saw a hand writing on the wall, Mane, Thecel, Phares. Daniel was requested to expound the meaning of these words. In explaining the word Thecel, he said to the king: “Thou art weighed in the balance, and art found wanting” – Dan. 5:27. By this explanation, he gave the king to understand that the weight of his sins in the balance of divine justice, had made the scale descend." The same night Balthassar, the Chaldean king, was killed" – Dan. 5:30. Oh! how many sinners have met with a similar fate! Continuing to offend God till their sins amounted to a certain number, they have been struck dead and sent to Hell! “They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment they go down to Hell” – Job 21:13. Tremble, brethren, lest if you commit another mortal sin, God should cast you into Hell.
  3. If God chastised sinners the moment they insult Him, we should not see Him so much despised. But, because He does not instantly punish their transgressions, and because through mercy He restrains His anger and waits for their return, they are encouraged to continue to offend Him. “For, because sentence is not speedily pronounced against the evil, the children of men commit evil without any fear” – Eccles. 8:11. But it is necessary to be persuaded, that though God bears with us, He does not wait, nor bear with us forever. Expecting, as on former occasions, to escape from the snares of the Philistines, Samson continued to allow himself to be deluded by Delilah. “I will go out as I did before, and shake myself” – Judges 16:20. But “the Lord departed from him.” Samson was at length taken by his enemies, and lost his life. The Lord warns you not to say: I have committed so many sins, and God has not chastised me. “Say not: I have sinned, and what harm hath befallen me; for the Most High is a patient rewarder” – Eccl. 5:4. God has patience for a certain term, after which He punishes the first and last sins. And the greater has been His patience, the more severe His vengeance.
  4. Hence, according to St. Chrysostom, God is more to be feared when He bears with sinners, than when He instantly punishes their sin. And why? Because, says St. Gregory, they to whom God has shown most mercy shall, if they do not cease to offend Him, be chastised with the greatest rigor. The saint adds that God often punishes such sinners with a sudden death, and does not allow them time for repentance. And the greater the light which God gives to certain sinners for their correction, the greater is their blindness and obstinacy in sin. “For it had been better for them not to have known the way of justice, than, after they had known it, to turn back” – II Pet. 2:21. Miserable the sinners, who, after having been enlightened, return to the vomit. St. Paul says, that it is morally impossible for them to be again converted. “For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated-have tasted also the Heavenly gifts. . . and are fallen away, to be renewed again to penance” – Heb. 6:4, 6.
 
  1. Listen, then, O sinner, to the admonition of the Lord: “My son, hast thou sinned? Do so no more, but for thy former sins pray that they may be forgiven thee” – Eccl. 21:1. Son, add not sins to those which you have already committed, but be careful to pray for the pardon of your past transgressions; otherwise, if you commit another mortal sin, the gates of divine mercy may be closed against you, and your soul may be lost forever. When then, beloved brethren, the devil tempts you again to yield to sin, say to yourself: If God pardons me no more, what shall become of me for all eternity? Should the Devil in reply, say: fear not, God is merciful; answer him by saying: What certainty or what probability have I that, if I return again to sin, God will show me mercy or grant me pardon? Behold the threat of the Lord against all who despise His calls: “Because I have called and you refused,…I also will laugh in your destruction, and will mock when that shall come to you which you feared” – Prov. 1:24, 26. Mark the words “I also”; they mean that, as you have mocked the Lord by betraying Him again after your confession and promises of amendment, so He will mock you at the hour of death. I will laugh and will mock. But, “God is not mocked” – Gal. 6:7. “As a dog,” says the Wise Man, “that returneth to his vomit, so is the fool that repeateth his folly” – Prov. 26:11. Bl. Denis the Carthusian gives an excellent exposition of this text. He says that, as a dog that eats what he has just vomited, is an object of disgust and abomination, so the sinner who returns to the sins which he has detested and confessed, becomes hateful in the sight of God.
  2. O folly of sinners! If you purchase a house, you spare no pains to get all the securities necessary to guard against the loss of your money; if you take medicine, you are careful to assure yourself that it cannot injure you; if you pass over a river, you cautiously avoid all danger of falling into it: and for a transitory enjoyment, for the gratification of revenge, for a beastly pleasure, which lasts but a moment, you risk your eternal salvation, saying: I will go to confession after I commit this sin. And when, I ask, are you to go to confession? You say: On tomorrow. But who promises you tomorrow? Who assures you that you shall have time for confession, and that God will not deprive you of life as He has deprived so many others, in the act of sin? “Diem tenes” says St. Augustine, “qui horam non tenes.” You cannot be certain of living for another hour, and you say: I will go to confession tomorrow. Listen to the words of St. Gregory: “He who has promised pardon to penitents, has not promised tomorrow to sinners” – Hom. 12 in Evan. God has promised pardon to all who repent; but He has not promised to wait until tomorrow for those who insult Him. Perhaps God will give you time for repentance, perhaps He will not. But, should He not give it, what shall become of your soul? In the meantime, for the sake of a miserable pleasure, you lose the grace of God and expose yourself to the danger of being lost forever.
  3. Would you, for such transient enjoyments, risk your money, your honor, your possessions, your liberty, and your life? No, you would not. How then does it happen that, for a miserable gratification, you lose your soul, Heaven, and God? Tell me: do you believe that Heaven, Hell, eternity, are truths of faith? Do you believe that, if you die in sin, you are lost forever? Oh! what temerity, what folly is it, to condemn yourself voluntarily to an eternity of torments with the hope of afterwards reversing the sentence of your condemnation! “Nemo,” says St. Augustine, “sub spe salutis vult aegrotare.” No one can be found so foolish as to take poison with the hope of preventing its deadly effects by adopting the ordinary remedies. And you will condemn yourself to Hell, saying that you expect to be afterwards preserved from it. O folly! which, in conformity with the divine threats, has brought, and brings every day, so many to Hell. “Thou hast trusted in thy wickedness, and evil shall come upon thee, and thou shalt not know the rising thereof” – Isa. 47:10, 11. You have sinned, trusting rashly in the divine mercy: the punishment of your guilt shall fall suddenly upon you, and you shall not know from whence it comes. What do you say? What resolution do you make? If, after this sermon, you do not firmly resolve to give yourself to God, I weep over you and regard you as lost.
 
notredame_999 said:
According to Father Gruner at the Fatima Challenge, God allows us only so many mortal sins before we are sent to hell. He said it varies for each person and some are only allowed one. I was interested if anyone had ever heard of this before? Was it a pre-Vatican II doctrine? I respect him but I don’t know about this. On one hand I kind of agree with him, because I think a lot of people confess the same mortal sin over and over again. This is especially true I believe with some men like myself regarding masturbation. God certainly detests it. And it also matches up with St. Leonard of Port Maurice and his Sermon on so few saved. Yet on the other hand, doesn’t God always leave the door open for a TRUE repentance?
Click to expand...
just a note, father gruner has been suspended a divinis. he is not a priest in good standing with the Holy See.
 
notredame_999 said:
According to Father Gruner at the Fatima Challenge, God allows us only so many mortal sins before we are sent to hell. He said it varies for each person and some are only allowed one. I was interested if anyone had ever heard of this before? Was it a pre-Vatican II doctrine? I respect him but I don’t know about this. On one hand I kind of agree with him, because I think a lot of people confess the same mortal sin over and over again. This is especially true I believe with some men like myself regarding masturbation. God certainly detests it. And it also matches up with St. Leonard of Port Maurice and his Sermon on so few saved. Yet on the other hand, doesn’t God always leave the door open for a TRUE repentance?
Click to expand...
GOD doesnt “allow” any mortal sins. Every Sin will be accounted for. A Single unrepented for Mortal sin sends the Soul to Hell. Remember - the Sacrament of Penance has several parameters. Confession being only one part. You must be sorry for your sin. You must repent of your sin and confess your sin and amend your life so you dont commit the Sin anymore. Certainly I have heard some Catholics erroneouslt think that they can commit sin because they can always go and confess it later. Woe be to any Catholic who thinks that way.

Going to confession doesnt mean you are forgiven if the confession isnt sincere , especially if you have no interntion of amending your life. How sorry for your sin are you if you have no intention of amending your life. Any Catholic who trully wants to save their soul and not be damned to Hell for Eternity takes enough time to reflect on his life and make a good confession. The point of confession is to make amends with GOD.

There is not a single Sin that is more important in this life as to endanger Salvation. So if any Catholic is caught in the web of thinking they can sin and it doesnt matter so long as they “confess” is ignorant of the Sacrament of Penance. The sacrament isnt known as “Confession”. Its known as Penance. And in order to be forgiven - you have to be comply with all aspects of the Sacarment.

Its not impossible to not commit Mortal Sins. We are called in Scripture to put on the New Man - we are called to live the commandments - we are called to master our senses not be a slave to them and we are given grace by GOD to know the difference. We are to pray to do penance to sacrifice to mortify to fast and it is in doing the things we are called to do out of our Love for GOD that Sin can be overcome. When we seek to conform our will to the will of GOD is our repentance complete. GOD gives us the Sacraments in order to save us. So we need to partake of them as much as possible and to not take them for granted. Penance is a gift for Salvation.

I believe we all need to ask ourselves if we really use it for our salvation or if we try to get away with as much as we can get away with. You cannot fool GOD. And GOD will be the judge of everything we do - including our inner most intentions. And if we have been given ample opportunity to confess and to repent and we still refuse to repent to the standards GOD has set for each of us - then , who is to blame for the loss of your soul. Certainly not GOD. Holy Mother the Church gives us the means and GOD stands ready to forgive us. All we have to do is give up Sin and put on the new man. Can anyone really say that any sinful pleasure in this life is worth making oneself an enemy of GOD? I say no.
 
This is not a new teaching, you will find the same thing in the writings of St. Alphonsus Liguori and a number of other saints.

"St. Basil, St. Jerome, St. John Chrysostom, St. Augustine and other fathers, teach, that as God according to the words of Scripture, “Thou hast ordered all things in measure, and number, and weight” (Wis. 11:21) has fixed for each person the number of the days of his life, and the degrees of health and talent which He will give him, so He has also determined for each the number of sins which He will pardon; and when this number is completed, He will pardon no more. "

catholicapologetics.info/morality/general/number.htm

God does not always leave the door open for repentance, once He calls you to your judgement, that is once you die, that door is closed and repentance is no longer possible, and He can call any of us to judgement at ANY time and those times will different from one person to another.

We must amend our life’s now while there is still time.

youtube.com/watch?v=cIdgPpUHPdQ
 
Milesius said:
This is not a new teaching, you will find the same thing in the writings of St. Alphonsus Liguori and a number of other saints.

"St. Basil, St. Jerome, St. John Chrysostom, St. Augustine and other fathers, teach, that as God according to the words of Scripture, “Thou hast ordered all things in measure, and number, and weight” (Wis. 11:21) has fixed for each person the number of the days of his life, and the degrees of health and talent which He will give him, so He has also determined for each the number of sins which He will pardon; and when this number is completed, He will pardon no more. "

catholicapologetics.info/morality/general/number.htm

God does not always leave the door open for repentance, once He calls you to your judgement, that is once you die, that door is closed and repentance is no longer possible, and He can call any of us to judgement at ANY time and those times will different from one person to another.

We must amend our life’s now while there is still time.

youtube.com/watch?v=cIdgPpUHPdQ
Click to expand...
Yes, hence the reason to keep our souls in the state of grace at all times, because we neither “know the time nor the hour.”
 
NOTE: I have edited the name of the thread. You may discuss the sbuject on the title line. Please refrain from discussing Father Gruner. Let us respect his person and privacy.

Thank You,

Thomas Casey
Moderator
 
I can’t imagine why anyone would ever accuse the Latin West of “legalism”! :rolleyes: How many mortal sins are you allowed? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Answer me that and you have your number. This sort of talk makes God sound like some sort of a divine terrorist just waiting for you to screw up so He can pound you into the ground. It’s is distressingly sad. 😦
 
trophybearer said:
I can’t imagine why anyone would ever accuse the Latin West of “legalism”! :rolleyes: How many mortal sins are you allowed? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Answer me that and you have your number. This sort of talk makes God sound like some sort of a divine terrorist just waiting for you to screw up so He can pound you into the ground. It’s is distressingly sad. 😦
Click to expand...
Matthew 18 : 21 Then came Peter unto him, and said: *Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? Till seven times?

22 Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven:

So mathematically 490 Sins you must endure if your brother offends you. And yes I am joking.
 
notredame_999 said:
According to Father Gruner at the Fatima Challenge, God allows us only so many mortal sins before we are sent to hell. He said it varies for each person and some are only allowed one. I was interested if anyone had ever heard of this before? Was it a pre-Vatican II doctrine? I respect him but I don’t know about this. On one hand I kind of agree with him, because I think a lot of people confess the same mortal sin over and over again. This is especially true I believe with some men like myself regarding masturbation. God certainly detests it. And it also matches up with St. Leonard of Port Maurice and his Sermon on so few saved. Yet on the other hand, doesn’t God always leave the door open for a TRUE repentance?
Click to expand...
I think he is speaking theoretically in the grand scheme of Divine Providence.

What is true and wonderful is that God’s mercy is so great. This is of especial comfort to a person who converted after his teenage years.

I do have a problem squaring God’s mercy with the idea that 5/33000 are saved (as St.Leonard suggests) but I humbly defer to the Great Saint and instead cast my knees in front of Our Lord’s Sacred Heart and exclaim *mea culpa. *
 
John_of_Woking said:
I think he is speaking theoretically in the grand scheme of Divine Providence.

What is true and wonderful is that God’s mercy is so great. This is of especial comfort to a person who converted after his teenage years.

I do have a problem squaring God’s mercy with the idea that 5/33000 are saved (as St.Leonard suggests) but I humbly defer to the Great Saint and instead cast my knees in front of Our Lord’s Sacred Heart and exclaim *mea culpa. *
Click to expand...
The only relevance that question has seems to be to those who want to get away with as much as they can and then still make it into heaven IMO

But as St Alphonsus Ligouri said - Show me someone who aspires to Purgatory and I’ll show you someone who will end up in Hell. We are to repent our Sins. Be sorry we ever offended GOD and seek to no longer offend him in any way.

So can we save our soul? Yes - because GOD is infinitely merciful but will we save our soul? That depends entirely on how important Our love for GOD becomes in Our Life. I think it isnt so much the limits of GOD’S Mercy that is in question but rather it is the Fortitude of our resolve to amendment of life that is the overriding issue. GOD’s will is for all of us to be saved. Unfortunately that doesnt seem to be as important as it should be to many.
 
I have heard this sermon before. The point of the sermon is not that there is necessarily a formula that God uses to determine when enough is enough regarding mortal sin. It is rather that we cannot be presumptuous in expecting that we can sin freely and will always have the opportunity to seek absolution or a death bed Confession.

What we can depend on is that God will send us the necessary grace to avoid mortal sin. But, being finite creatures, we will eventually come to a point in our lives when we are about to commit the final mortal sin that our short lives afford us the time to commit. In advance of that sin, God will supply us with the grace necessary to avoid that sin. If we commit that sin and die unabsolved, we are lost for eternity.

That God may or may not assign the number of hours we have in this life according to the number of mortal sins we commit is immaterial because we always supplies the grace to avoid the sins whether we will be afforded the time to commit one or one million. We are NOT guaranteed that we will have time, after the last mortal sin we will ever commit, to seek sacramental absolution or even make a perfect act of contrition.

God being omniscient knows the number. Perhaps he does set the number, but again, it is immaterial since He also sends the grace to avoid it
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top