# of mortal sins we are allowed

[shaky]

I have always thought that the reason that dying without repenting is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is that it is like saying with your last dying breath that God is not powerful enough to save you. Sometimes despairing over your sinfulness seems like it is being humble but really it is a kind of pride.

Hi Journierman

How can despairing over you own sinfulness be a kind of pride. The tax collector and the Pharisee praying together. why was the tax collector Justified for despairing over his Sin
And the Pharisee thanking god he was not a sinner like the tax collector seemed not to be not Justified.

What Gets me about bible: You read who is born of God does not Sin. Also you got Jesus saying Sin no more unless worst comes upon you. Then you read he who says is without Sin is a liar and the Truth in not in him. Then you read who can say he is pure and without Sin.

 

[shaky]

Matthew 18 : 21 Then came Peter unto him, and said: *Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? Till seven times?

22 Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven:

So mathematically 490 Sins you must endure if your brother offends you. And yes I am joking.

Hi Robert

490: That does mean in a day: Not over a life time

 

[shaky]

What Fr. Gruner said is perfectly in line with what St. Alphonsus Maria de Ligouri said. It should be understood in that context.

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit exists.

Hi Shin

I thought Blasphemy against the holy Spirit is calling the holy-spirit the devil like the Pharisees did when Jesus was casting out demons out by the power of the holy spirit
The pharisees did say That Jesus was doing what he was doing by the power of Satan

I had a Jehovah witness saying that to me once. he believes any exorcism’s or healings or miracles that are done today is done by the power of satan. Because he believes all these powers are now passed away.

 

[Shin]

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit seems to always be always some variety of sin that is tied to permanent impenitence, one way or another it prevents it, because it fundamentally rejects/offends/sins against the Holy Spirit.

Traditionally there are six kinds:

(1) Despair,
(2) Presumption of God’s mercy,
(3) Impugning the known truth,
(4) Envy the spiritual good of another,
(5) Obstinacy in sin,
(6) Final impenitence.

FWIF from what comes to mind: You can see each of these causes problems in a different way. In despair, you block grace because you refuse to accept that you can accept it. In presumption you block grace because you believe you can go to Heaven in sin, impugning the truth traps oneself in living a lie through one own’s mortally sinful fault, envy kills charity towards neighbor, obstinancy locks you into sins that require repentance…

But there are a variety of opinions on the subject matter, the Summa goes over this.

 

[shaky]

Good stuff Shin…scary, but good.

@mary gail…I’m not sure I understand what you are saying? The story told by the Pope is that the boy is taken by demons. It is a sad thing to talk about a 5 yo being damned. But like Sr. Rosaria (best teacher ever!) used to say…"just because you are a child, doesn’t mean you can’t go to hell)!

Hi dailey

I think the concept of some baby who died less then 6 months old in hell does not seem right to me
Imagine if it was you and you find yourself there not understanding what is happening and what you have done to deserve this.
The scriptures are clear you are Judged according to you works.

 

[Shin]

In this case we’re talking about a five year old.

However, without the grace of baptism no one goes to Heaven.

And before Christ came, no one went to Heaven. Young, old, babies, young adults, married couples, single… you name it.

Nada.

Heaven is a gift, not a default destination. It appears at least, not making to Heaven for those without personal sins means not suffering any penalties for personal sins. So while one would lack the beatific vision there could perhaps be natural happiness despite this. There’s a lot of history on this subject.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God”

John 3:5

“Whoever believes and is baptized, will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned”

Mk 16:16

 

[Janet1983]

Sounds like someone taking 77 x 7 too literally. That on sin number 540 we go to hell. No, this isn’t traffic court that after getting enough points, you get your license taken away. God is infinitely merciful to those who seek His mercy.

I’ve always been taught to take the number given in the Bible as basically indefinite. Nobody would go ahead and count the times that he forgives his brother so meticulously and over such a long period of time to actually reach such an incredible number as 540.

 

[dailey]

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit seems to always be always some variety of sin that is tied to permanent impenitence, one way or another it prevents it, because it fundamentally rejects/offends/sins against the Holy Spirit.

Traditionally there are six kinds:

(1) Despair,
(2) Presumption of God’s mercy,
(3) Impugning the known truth,
(4) Envy the spiritual good of another,
(5) Obstinacy in sin,
(6) Final impenitence.

FWIF from what comes to mind: You can see each of these causes problems in a different way. In despair, you block grace because you refuse to accept that you can accept it. In presumption you block grace because you believe you can go to Heaven in sin, impugning the truth traps oneself in living a lie through one own’s mortally sinful fault, envy kills charity towards neighbor, obstinancy locks you into sins that require repentance…

But there are a variety of opinions on the subject matter, the Summa goes over this.

I understand 1 and 2…but would you care to elaborate on 3, 4, 5 and 6? If you have time?

 

[Shin]

Trying to think of better ways to explain it… don’t know much more m’self…

 

[JaMc]

I think what Fr. Gruner, St. Alphonsus, et al., are getting at is that we shouldn’t get into the “etch-a-sketch” way of thinking, i.e., “I can sin all I want, then I can go to confession, and I’m good!”, without making a firm commitment to at least TRY not to sin again. If we try to lead a good life, but stumble into sin, that’s fine. But if we deliberately sin, thinking “it’s O.K., I’ll just go to confession later,” as we are sinning that’s not fine, and should be discouraged in the strongest way possible, hence St. Alphsonsus’ sermon.

Any other way of looking at it would be to deny the forgiveness of sin, which, of course, would be a terrible heresy.

 

[dailey]

Trying to think of better ways to explain it… don’t know much more m’self…

Ha! Well now I don’t feel so bad.

 

[Robert_Burns]

I think what Fr. Gruner, St. Alphonsus, et al., are getting at is that we shouldn’t get into the “etch-a-sketch” way of thinking, i.e., “I can sin all I want, then I can go to confession, and I’m good!”, without making a firm commitment to at least TRY not to sin again. If we try to lead a good life, but stumble into sin, that’s fine. But if we deliberately sin, thinking “it’s O.K., I’ll just go to confession later,” as we are sinning that’s not fine, and should be discouraged in the strongest way possible, hence St. Alphsonsus’ sermon.

Any other way of looking at it would be to deny the forgiveness of sin, which, of course, would be a terrible heresy.

I dont necessarily agree with certain points of your answer although in principle I see where you are headed. It is important to remember that GOD is not mocked. He knows the underlying reasons we do the things we do. So are we to “Try” not to sin again? Actually , no. We are to resolve ourselves to change. To repent means to do exactly that , repent. When Jesus told the woman caught in adultery that neither do I condemn you after everyone dropped the stones - he didnt then say go and TRY not to sin again. He said go and sin no more. Meaning - no more. Can we all fall due to our fallen human nature? Of course. We are sinners. But we should never not resolve to never sin again. To put on the new man. In my view - if we say we are going to “Try” not to sin again - then we havent really made that commitment not to sin and that attitude makes it easier to sin again. Like the Woman - who came face to face with her mortality because of the gravity of her sins - do we likewise see our own mortality when we do the same? We should. Part of the problem today is that the Gravity of Sin has been lost on this generation and because it has - the number of Mortal sins has grown exponentially. But we as Catholics are to be the light of the world. So if we as Catholics adopt the lackadaisical attitude that doesnt reflect the gravity of sin then we become part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

pax

 

[journierman]

Hi Journierman

How can despairing over you own sinfulness be a kind of pride. The tax collector and the Pharisee praying together. why was the tax collector Justified for despairing over his Sin
And the Pharisee thanking god he was not a sinner like the tax collector seemed not to be not Justified.

What Gets me about bible: You read who is born of God does not Sin. Also you got Jesus saying Sin no more unless worst comes upon you. Then you read he who says is without Sin is a liar and the Truth in not in him. Then you read who can say he is pure and without Sin.

No no, I don’t mean despairing over your sins as in I agree with God that my sins are bad like the tax collector. I mean despairing over them by saying My sins are so great that even God, almighty God who made the heavens and the earth, cannot forgive me. That is actually a kind of pride as if what I can do presents an obstacle to what God can do so great that He can’t overcome it.

 

[LilyM]

Hi Journierman

How can despairing over you own sinfulness be a kind of pride. The tax collector and the Pharisee praying together. why was the tax collector Justified for despairing over his Sin
And the Pharisee thanking god he was not a sinner like the tax collector seemed not to be not Justified.

The tax collector was in fact the opposite of despairing - he asked for God’s mercy, which means he hoped and trusted in God rather than despairing.

He would have been despairing if he instead had convinced himself that his sins were too great for God to forgive. If that were so he wouldn’t even have ASKED for God’s mercy in the first place.

Despairing over sinfulness is basically saying ‘my sins are greater than God’s mercy’ or ‘my sins aren’t common or everyday sins like those everyone from Adam onwards has committed - they’re SO very bad’.

In other words ‘I am a special case, unique among all creation in my sinfulness’. Now surely we all know people who are sinful and also wear that sinfulness as some sort of a twisted badge of honour - they get a thrill out of telling people just how really rotten and awful they are, and all the evil things they’ve done.

That’s as great a sin of pride, in a sense, as saying ‘I am a special case, unique among all creation in my virtue’. Truth is, no-one sins or virtues are unique at all.

 

[shaky]

No no, I don’t mean despairing over your sins as in I agree with God that my sins are bad like the tax collector. I mean despairing over them by saying My sins are so great that even God, almighty God who made the heavens and the earth, cannot forgive me. That is actually a kind of pride as if what I can do presents an obstacle to what God can do so great that He can’t overcome it.

Hi Journierman

Sorry i misunderstood your last post: Thanks i have allot better understanding of things now.

 

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[willymonfrete]

In this case we’re talking about a five year old.

However, without the grace of baptism no one goes to Heaven.

And before Christ came, no one went to Heaven. Young, old, babies, young adults, married couples, single… you name it.

Nada.

Heaven is a gift, not a default destination. It appears at least, not making to Heaven for those without personal sins means not suffering any penalties for personal sins. So while one would lack the beatific vision there could perhaps be natural happiness despite this. There’s a lot of history on this subject.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God”

John 3:5

“Whoever believes and is baptized, will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned”

Mk 16:16

hell is a state of eternal punishment so there is no happy place in hell .also the israelites and others could have been saved before the coming of christ thru implicit desire for baptism.paul says in hebrews i think that the israelites were saved by implicit desire.

 

[Bookcat]

OLD thread.

We are not to “raise the thread”.

Let the rest in peace.

 

[willymonfrete]

[1 Corinthians 10]
{10:1} For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and they all went across the sea.
{10:2} And in Moses, they all were baptized, in the cloud and in the sea.
{10:3} And they all ate of the same spiritual food.
{10:4} And they all drank of the same spiritual drink. And so, they all were drinking of the spiritual rock seeking to obtain them; and that rock was Christ.

 

[Bookcat]

[1 Corinthians 10]
{10:1} For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and they all went across the sea.
{10:2} And in Moses, they all were baptized, in the cloud and in the sea.
{10:3} And they all ate of the same spiritual food.
{10:4} And they all drank of the same spiritual drink. And so, they all were drinking of the spiritual rock seeking to obtain them; and that rock was Christ.

OLD thread.

Please do not comment on old threads…this is from years ago…(understand your new here).