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ProVobis
Guest
But at least they went to Church.
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MrS
Guest
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
sorry
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JuanCarlos
Guest
Compare Eucharistic prayer I in the NO to the Roman Canon in a TLM missalette- in Latin it is (almost) word for word exactly the same.
Now look at the English for both. Which one is more beautiful?
Now look at the English for both. Which one is more beautiful?
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ethelzguy
Guest
Beauty, like women, is highly subjective. We’re never going to change one anothers’ mind with regard to the “beauty” of either form of Mass.
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LilyM
Guest
And? I fail to see your point here. Touching the sacred vessels has naught to do with Communion in the Hand for starters. And the mere fact that Popes didn’t like it all those years ago has naught to do with historial justification, after all we’ve had priestly marriage for longer than priestly celibacy, does that make priestly marriage more justifiable???
And yet your unworthy tongue DOES come into contact with Him? To touch Him with any part of our body is presumptuous in the extreme, no one part is more presumptuous than another. Above all, remember that He permits this presumption. He told the Apostles to take and eat, unworthy as they were. In the same manner He took Thomas’s hands and touched them to to His sacred wounded body in order to confirm his faith, unworthy as he was.
You’re positing the idea here that more repetitions = more worship. Great. Let’s repeat the Kyrie 15 times instead of nine then - no, 45 times - no, 102 times. Surely each option must be better than the last by your reasoning.
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Tommy_Joe
Guest
“most people would just go and stand there and have no idea what was really going on.”
I venture to say that there probably were quite a few who didn’t have a clue, but with a large percentage of todays church-going Catholics; (according to recent research), not believing in the “real presence”, being divorced, and the majority of them practicing birth control, I figure that particular problem is unbelievably worse today.
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pnewton
Guest
Since the TLM will never be in the vernacular, I think a better question would be what elements of the TLM would we like incorporated into the the Mass today, as well as which ones would be tolerable.
Ad orientum - I think I am all for this. I like the symbolism. With a sound system, nothing is lost. The Spirit of the Liturgy sold me on this.
More literal translation from the Latin. ICEL should be sent to remedial English.
Communion in the hand - I prefer this, but if things were changed, I would adapt pretty easily and never utter an unkind word.
Re-instituting of the Holy Days on the proper days - Oh yeah! I am all for that.
Some things that I am not so keen on are:
Responses by altar servers or schola, but not by the congregation.
Prayers that as inaudible.
Ad orientum - I think I am all for this. I like the symbolism. With a sound system, nothing is lost. The Spirit of the Liturgy sold me on this.
More literal translation from the Latin. ICEL should be sent to remedial English.
Communion in the hand - I prefer this, but if things were changed, I would adapt pretty easily and never utter an unkind word.
Re-instituting of the Holy Days on the proper days - Oh yeah! I am all for that.
Some things that I am not so keen on are:
Responses by altar servers or schola, but not by the congregation.
Prayers that as inaudible.
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pnewton
Guest
Vamped.
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Ghoti
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Claire_from_DE
Guest
Ditto.
I finally got rid of my St. Joseph Missals so I can’t refer to them. I recall the translations (or maybe I’m thinking of some of the other prayers in the missals) as being rather outdated language, not as someone would currently speak. For one thing, using the terms thee and thou, which in Latin are intimate and used among family members, seems ‘churchy’. Using them to speak to God today actually is seen as a more ‘formal’ way of praying rather than using ‘you’.
So I implore that some poster wilt vouchsafe to entrust to us poor inhabitants of this vale of tears the links requested by Ghoti
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Podo2005
Guest
No I am presently happy with the Novus Ordo mass and would not like to attend a TLM in english.
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belgianwaffles9
Guest
You fail to explain why. If you dont explain your reasons, I’m forced to make assumptions.
I already exlained why i prefer priestly celebacy, and if you bothered reading and trying to understand instea dof just bashing me, you’s have seen that i dont mind disagreement on that for th every reason that you mentioned: historically, it was something we adopted on our own, not by divine mandate. But i still prefer it because i want my priests devoted entirely to his job, his calling, his vocation.
And all of those sources, and MORE, show that until the last 40 years, the Church understood for almost the entirety of its history that the Eucharist was not to be touched by the hands of the laity. Why do you deny the authority and wisdom of the church from the first century until 40 years ago? Suddenly, 40 years ago, some random churchmen all the sudden became smarter than all the saints, popes, and patriarchs of the past? It seems to me liek YOU think you’re smarter than all of them.
If you knew more about the Church, you would know that it is impossible to “receive the Eucharist” in the hand. The very definition of “receive the Eucharist” means to eat it, which means in the mouth. Therefore, when the Eucarist is placed in your hands and you consume it, you are in fact, giving the eucharist to yourself instead of receiving it humbly from the priest, who acts in the perosn of Christ, and who is a part of the divine priesthood established by Christ all those years ago.
I would NEVER be so arrogant as to give myself the Eucharist. Apparently you have no such reservations.
What give you the right to tell me what my reasoning is. When you write things like that, it only leaves the rest of us to question if you yourself have any reason at all. I prefer using 9 because thats the way we’ve done it for hundreds of years, as the result of a process of ORGANIC DEVELOPMENT. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it! What is it that you seem to hate so much about 9 recitations? Explain to me what is theologically better about 3 recitatiosn than 9? Why do you reject the practice of 9 recitations, which the great majority of saints and holy men and women knew, and found appropriate? Why do you reject the organic development which the holy spirit guided over the years for the banal, on the spot product (the words of Pope Benedict XVI) which is the New Mass?
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brigid12
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Yes! Definitely! Along with Ad Orientum (at least for the Consecration) and Communion on the tongue at altar rails (kneeling if can).
Reason - the Mass of the '62 missal used English which is not used on the street anymore so would incorporate (IMHO) more of the sacred into it.
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tcraig
Guest
Latin, Ad Orientem? Those are so far out in “dream land” as to seem unattainable at my current parish. Goodness, I’d just be happy if my priest would say the prayers as written, without constant ad-libbing and inclusive language.
I’d also be happy if our music director actually read a document or two regarding music and the mass. Electric piano, electric guitar and a drum set … need I say more?
I’d also be happy if our music director actually read a document or two regarding music and the mass. Electric piano, electric guitar and a drum set … need I say more?
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SenorSalsa
Guest
belgianwaffles9;3893622 said:
What is it that you seem to hate so much about 9 recitations? Explain to me what is theologically better about 3 recitatiosn than 9? Why do you reject the practice of 9 recitations, which the great majority of saints and holy men and women knew, and found appropriate? Why do you reject the organic development which the holy spirit guided over the years for the banal, on the spot product (the words of Pope Benedict XVI) which is the New Mass?
First off, there a great majority of saints and holy men and women, who never would have dreamed about saying it nine times every Mass. Becuase for a long time, and during the part where the Holy Spirit was most visibly active, the Saints and Holy people would never have dreamed of a rubric for the Mass. The Mass was basically, to steal your terms, a “banal, on the spot product”. OK, so not exactly, but the Priests generally did just kind of let the Spirit flow, they didnt have a book to read from
Secondly, Im guessing that the qoute you so graciously attribute to Pope Benedict is taken so far out of context, politicians all over are celebrating. I have no doubt Benedict does not regard the NO as banal. Why? Possibly becuase I have only ever seen Benedict offer the Mass according the the NO rubrics. My guess is that he is refering to such inovations as “clown masses” and
“liturgical dancing”
Thirdly, how am I, or you, to distinguish organic from non organic. Its not like people showed up to Mass one day, and all of a sudden there was a book with set Prayers, or that the Gloria was suddenly said 9 times, and nobody noticed. They were changes, and would have been noticed. The very term makes me angry, because no change to the Catholic Mass is ever going to be organic, because Rome will eventually mandate the change. It may start organically(and people in that parish will shout “abuse”), but if adapted, it wont be organically.
Lastly, as I have said in a previous post, if celebrated as originally intended, the NO would look like a fairly organic change. It would be Ad Orientum still, it would be in Latin still, Communion rails would still be used, etc. etc.
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JuanCarlos
Guest
Here’s the Novus Ordo Eucharistic Prayer I with Latin:
catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/Text/Index/4/SubIndex/67/ContentIndex/22/Start/9
Here’s a more accurate translation (from a TLM missal)
sacred-texts.com/chr/lmass/ord.htm
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jedi
Guest
I think the N.O mass should change some texts. if i not mistaken by end of this year some of the churches in America change the text in N.O mass. make it more closer to Latin form. for example:::::
- “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you,” now goes
~ “Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof.” That’s much closer to the original – “Domine, non sum dignus, ut intres sub tectum meum.” - in the Nicene Creed, “born of the Virgin Mary” will revert to
~ “incarnate of the Virgin Mary” (“incarnatus…ex Maria Virgine”). - And, in the exchange between priest and congregation: Priest: “The Lord be with you.” Congregation: “And also with you.”
~ will become: Priest: “The Lord be with you.” Congregation: “And with your spirit.” Again, this is much closer to the original Latin: Priest: “Dominus Vobiscum.” Congregation: “Et cum spiritu tuo.”
i hope all the church around the world will follow this new text.
and i also hope that Our Father should be pray in Latin (Pater Noster) make it universal, please…
please tell me what wrong with Our Father in Latin??? if no problem why we never pray in Latin (Pater Noster) during mass???
to Pope Benedict16…
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LilyM
Guest
Here in Oz in our Nicene Creed we DO say ‘he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary’.I think the N.O mass should change some texts. if i not mistaken by end of this year some of the churches in America change the text in N.O mass. make it more closer to Latin form. for example:::::
- “Lord, I am not worthy to receive you,” now goes
~ “Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof.” That’s much closer to the original – “Domine, non sum dignus, ut intres sub tectum meum.”- in the Nicene Creed, “born of the Virgin Mary” will revert to
~ “incarnate of the Virgin Mary” (“incarnatus…ex Maria Virgine”).- And, in the exchange between priest and congregation: Priest: “The Lord be with you.” Congregation: “And also with you.”
~ will become: Priest: “The Lord be with you.” Congregation: “And with your spirit.” Again, this is much closer to the original Latin: Priest: “Dominus Vobiscum.” Congregation: “Et cum spiritu tuo.”
i hope all the church around the world will follow this new text.
and i also hope that Our Father should be pray in Latin (Pater Noster) make it universal, please…
please tell me what wrong with Our Father in Latin??? if no problem why we never pray in Latin (Pater Noster) during mass???
As for ‘and with your spirit’ - what in the blue blazes is that supposed to mean anyway? It sounds like pure jibberjabber. God is either with a person or He isn’t, He isn’t with a person’s ‘spirit’, and, for example, NOT with their body or their mind or something. Peace is either with a person or it isn’t, it isn’t with their ‘spirit’ as opposed to any other part of them.
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MrS
Guest
A prime example of what happens when there is neither proper catechesis nor retention for the proven liturgy.Here in Oz in our Nicene Creed we DO say ‘he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary’.
As for ‘and with your spirit’ - what in the blue blazes is that supposed to mean anyway? It sounds like pure jibberjabber. God is either with a person or He isn’t, He isn’t with a person’s ‘spirit’, and, for example, NOT with their body or their mind or something. Peace is either with a person or it isn’t, it isn’t with their ‘spirit’ as opposed to any other part of them.
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