Of what harm would it do

[Mijoy2]

If God revealed himself to a much greater degree?

My question is not meant to call into light the degree of which he has revealed Himself. I’m hoping not to get answers of the variety;
the beauty of the creation, love, objective good etc. I don’t dispute these issues, these revelations. Yet they can, and have been argued since the beginning of time as to whether they are God’s revelation or, from the atheist perspective, a by product of evolution.

My question, admittedly seemingly silly (yet I ask with all seriousness) why hasn’t he revealed Himself in a indisputable manner? I realize there are hardcore atheists who would dispute nearly everything but I fail to see what the secret is. Why can’t (or more to the point; won’t) God reveal Himself in a manner such as moving Mount Everest to a different country, alphabetically every 10 years.

The obvious answer is He calls us to faith. My ignorance asks why? Why does He ask us to believe with a limited degree of revelation? It would not disable our free will. We would still be able to accept or reject Him. He could still read our hearts.

Frankly, why the mystery? What is the purpose?

 

[MonicaC]

I guess my only answer to your question is simple that he wants us to truely love him. When St Thomas the apostle doubted that Jesus had risen from the dead Jesus told him you believe because you see but blest is he who believes without seeing. I think that it is because it is easier to believe when it is constantly in front of you but than you are also blinded by ordainaryness of it as to when you truely believe and have not actually seen can you imagen how it would be when you actually do see!

I really do hope that this helps!

 

[Genesis315]

He has revealed Himself in an indisputable manner a few times in the OT. I mean, He revealed Himself to Adam and Eve for one. He revealed Himself to Moses.

Of course He totally revealed Himself when He became man and walked the earth, worked all sorts of miracles, and rose from the dead. I mean, there’s miracles quite often nowadays too, from Eucharistic miracles, to Guadalupe and Lourdes. I mean, we’ve canonized a bunch of saints recently, that means there have been a bunch of miracles. Don’t forget about the little miracles that happen in our own lives. When you really think about it, God has probably revealed Himself more than enough. Only those with a hardened, self worshipping heart still reject Him.

 

[surfinpure]

I know that C.S. Lewis addressed this very question in one of his many books. I’ll see if I can track down what he had to say on the subject.

 

[Mijoy2]

Genesis315:

He has revealed Himself in an indisputable manner a few times in the OT. I mean, He revealed Himself to Adam and Eve for one. He revealed Himself to Moses.

Of course He totally revealed Himself when He became man and walked the earth, worked all sorts of miracles, and rose from the dead. I mean, there’s miracles quite often nowadays too, from Eucharistic miracles, to Guadalupe and Lourdes. I mean, we’ve canonized a bunch of saints recently, that means there have been a bunch of miracles. Don’t forget about the little miracles that happen in our own lives. When you really think about it, God has probably revealed Himself more than enough. Only those with a hardened, self worshipping heart still reject Him.

I thank you for the reply, Monicas as well. but both replies prompt the follow-up question I anticipated asking.

Obviously whether Adam and Eve and well as Moses existed are heavily disputed in this world. The other revelations you mention are disputed even among Christians. Guadalupe, Lourdes, Fatima, Eucharistic Miracles, Miracles that canonized Saints etc, are not revelations that 1/2 of Christians hold to, let alone people of other faiths. They are Roman Catholic beliefs and not required beliefs at that. In fact I think it is these type revelations that initially began to cast doubts my way. These revelations cast Christian against Christian. let alone believer against non-believer.

The fact that revelation is held at arms length must have a reason. It’s escaping me.

In all other aspects of life, we are required to use logic and gather evidence before we are to come to opinion or believe something. If I were to make a descion at work without data to support it, I’d be fired in a heart beat.

Just why was* faith, *an blessed quality to Christ? If one were to make other decisions based on faith, he be considered a fool. Yet Christ asks of us to believe on faith. I am not sure I ever heard a compelling reason why.

 

[Mijoy2]

surf(name removed by moderator)ure:

I know that C.S. Lewis addressed this very question in one of his many books. I’ll see if I can track down what he had to say on the subject.

ahhh, i’d much appreciate it. I do love his books. I’ve possibly read it myself, but the short term memory is fading i’m afraid.

 

[MonicaC]

Just why was* faith, *an blessed quality to Christ? If one were to make other decisions based on faith, he be considered a fool. Yet Christ asks of us to believe on faith. I am not sure I ever heaerd a strong reason why.

Well, I think that we need to remember that God is not of this world, we as Humans tend to think that we need to always have solid proof for our actions. Who created our world, but God. If say you had a child that you adored and loved, but you died before your child’s long term memory came in. All of his living relatives tell him his whole life that you loved him with all of your heart and all that he has came from you. Than naturally that child will have Faith that he was loved by this parent that he has never meet, and he now has the choice of wether he should love you in return. How is he to know if you even existed except by having faith.

 

[puzzleannie]

He sent his only begotten Son who became man, like us in all things except sin, and whom we crucified, who rose again and redeemed us from bondage to sin and death. This is not enough of a revelation for you? I am at a loss to know what else you are looking for.

 

[Annunciata]

puzzleannie:

He sent his only begotten Son who became man, like us in all things except sin, and whom we crucified, who rose again and redeemed us from bondage to sin and death. This is not enough of a revelation for you? I am at a loss to know what else you are looking for.

Now that is profound…And you’re absolutely right…what else would we need for proof…:clapping:

 

[masterjedi747]

Mijoy2:

Of what harm would it do if God revealed himself to a much greater degree? The obvious answer is He calls us to faith. My ignorance asks why? Why does He ask us to believe with a limited degree of revelation? What is the purpose?

raises hand I know this one!!!
OK: Why? Because God wants us to love him for Who He is. He doesn’t want to to believe in Him and follow Him and avoid sin just because of how powerful He is…He really wants us to love Him with our whole hearts, and avoid sin for that reason most of all. Jesus didn’t come down to attract crowds with spectacular miracles, to become a worldly Messiah like everybody wanted Him to. Instead, he came down to become someone just like us, someone that we can identify with more perfectly and learn to grow a true friendship with. He reveals Himself to us in very subtle ways (think: the Eucharist), and wants us to grow in our understanding of Him through that intimate relationship. He wants to raise us up to spend eternity in friendship (not just servantship) with Him. (So does that explanation help you out at all?)

 

[Pax]

I believe Peter Kreeft gave a great answer to this question. I will do what I can to relate his thoughts but apologize in advance for my ineptitude at remembering it properly. Kreeft suggests that God, in His infinite wisdom, respects our free will and has thus balanced his revelation in such a way as to let people freely come to faith or to freely choose against it. God provides just enough light for those that seek Him to come to faith. There is insufficient light, however, to remove any doubt that would otherwise force those to believe that would otherwise choose unbelief. Although this is not well stated by me, it is essentially the explanation given by Peter Kreeft.

 

[Mijoy2]

puzzleannie:

He sent his only begotten Son who became man, like us in all things except sin, and whom we crucified, who rose again and redeemed us from bondage to sin and death. This is not enough of a revelation for you? I am at a loss to know what else you are looking for.

You either missed my point or deliberately felt like tossing an insult I didn’t deserve.

My question was genuine. And if in fact he did that, of course it is enough for me. He also asked us not to judge.

 

[Mijoy2]

raises hand I know this one!!!
OK: Why? Because God wants us to love him for Who He is. He doesn’t want to to believe in Him and follow Him and avoid sin just because of how powerful He is…He really wants us to love Him with our whole hearts, and avoid sin for that reason most of all. Jesus didn’t come down to attract crowds with spectacular miracles, to become a worldly Messiah like everybody wanted Him to. Instead, he came down to become someone just like us, someone that we can identify with more perfectly and learn to grow a true friendship with. He reveals Himself to us in very subtle ways (think: the Eucharist), and wants us to grow in our understanding of Him through that intimate relationship. He wants to raise us up to spend eternity in friendship (not just servantship) with Him. (So does that explanation help you out at all?)

YES, however I have a follow-up when I have a little more time.
Thank you.

 

[Mijoy2]

Pax:

I believe Peter Kreeft gave a great answer to this question. I will do what I can to relate his thoughts but apologize in advance for my ineptitude at remembering it properly. Kreeft suggests that God, in His infinite wisdom, respects our free will and has thus balanced his revelation in such a way as to let people freely come to faith or to freely choose against it. God provides just enough light for those that seek Him to come to faith. There is insufficient light, however, to remove any doubt that would otherwise force those to believe that would otherwise choose unbelief. Although this is not well stated by me, it is essentially the explanation given by Peter Kreeft.

“God provides just enough light for those that seek Him to come to faith”

Maybe this answers it. Maybe He desires to be sought because somehow it is a display of our integrity, or a display of our desire for Him.

“There is insufficient light, however, to remove any doubt that would otherwise force those to believe that would otherwise choose unbelief”

It’s the word “believe” I guess I have trouble with. I love my daughters without having to be forced to believe they exist. Can’t I chose to either love or reject Him based on the choices I make minus the belief factor?

 

[Mijoy2]

MonicaC:

Well, I think that we need to remember that God is not of this world, we as Humans tend to think that we need to always have solid proof for our actions. Who created our world, but God. If say you had a child that you adored and loved, but you died before your child’s long term memory came in. All of his living relatives tell him his whole life that you loved him with all of your heart and all that he has came from you. Than naturally that child will have Faith that he was loved by this parent that he has never meet, and he now has the choice of wether he should love you in return. How is he to know if you even existed except by having faith.

Yes, thank you Monica. However God is still with us. Yet He choses no further public revelation. This is where the root of my question is.

I thank all those who see I find this troubling and elect to help.

 

[Mijoy2]

puzzleannie:

He sent his only begotten Son who became man, like us in all things except sin, and whom we crucified, who rose again and redeemed us from bondage to sin and death. This is not enough of a revelation for you? I am at a loss to know what else you are looking for.

You missed my question and this was completely uncalled for.
But thank you anyway.

 

[Mijoy2]

Annunciata:

Now that is profound…And you’re absolutely right…what else would we need for proof…:clapping:

Many peole believe, with all thier logic, mind and even hearts, that this did not occur. I am trying to believe with all my heart as well as my mind.

I desperately want to believe. I pray for more faith each time I recite the rosary, and each time I go to Mass and more. I confess this and have had some discussion regarding this in the confessional.

Thank you for your contribution.

 

[puzzleannie]

Mijoy2:

You missed my question and this was completely uncalled for.
But thank you anyway.

I’m sorry if I missed the point of your question, it was not the clearest post I have ever read, I though you asked why God did not reveal Himself indisputably, and I answered that His Revelation in the Person of Jesus Christ is complete, entire and indisputable. Sorry if you disagree.

 

[VociMike]

I believe such an in-your-face revelation would come close to compelling us to believe, which then becomes a compelling to love (or at least fear). God does not want to compel us, for the compelled believer is no believer at all, and the compelled lover is no lover at all.

 

[Mijoy2]

puzzleannie:

I’m sorry if I missed the point of your question, it was not the clearest post I have ever read, I though you asked why God did not reveal Himself indisputably, and I answered that His Revelation in the Person of Jesus Christ is complete, entire and indisputable. Sorry if you disagree.

So on top of being a heathen I am also not articulate. Don’t pass this around, I wouldn’t want this to get out.

Annie, with all due respect, I truly admire your unwavering and total belief. If I could snap my fingers and attain your level of belief I think I would.

To say it is “undisputable” is, I believe, completely inaccurate. Christ’s redeemtion story has been heavily disputed throughout history. Your belief that it should not be disputed is probably another issue indeed.

I have been told by Priests and some of the wonderful Friars in the city of which I work, that I am not in sin having doubts. I came to these forums to express these doubts and, hopefully, to lessen them through those of greater faith and greater knowledge of the faith.

I apologize in advance if this is not articualte enough to be understood.