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buffalo
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Off The Rails: Was Vatican II Hijacked?
By James Hitchcock
By James Hitchcock
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Exporter
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All I know is that U.S. Bishops took “suggestions” as “must do”.
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Fr_Ambrose
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Do what your supposed to do…when your supposed to do it. Bear Bryant
Not just Bear Bryant but Huxley said it too!
“Perhaps the most valuable result of all education is the ability to make yourself do the thing that you have to do, when it ought to be done, whether you like it or not. This is the first lesson to be learned.”
Not just Bear Bryant but Huxley said it too!
“Perhaps the most valuable result of all education is the ability to make yourself do the thing that you have to do, when it ought to be done, whether you like it or not. This is the first lesson to be learned.”
T. Huxley
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fix
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buffalo said:
YES.
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DavidFilmer
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Of course not. That’s stupid. Vatican II was an Ecumenical Council and thus protected by the guarantee of the Holy Spirit that it would not teach error.
Did some foolish people mischaracterize what the Council Fathers taught? Sure. What else is new? Opponents of the Catholic Church have been mischaracterizing Her teachings for centuries (Marian worship, re-sacrificing of Jesus in the Eucharist, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc).
If someone wants to claim that V2 was “hijacked,” I issue this challenge: Cite the Council document that is contrary to established Catholic doctrine. Well, I’m waiting…
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Church_Militant
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DavidFilmer said:
Well said! I agree!
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tom.wineman
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Why don’t you site the document that mandated the complete
rewrite of the Mass. Not the peripheral ones, before or after, but the actual one from the Council that demanded it.
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James0235
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DavidFilmer said:
I’m not saying that there is error in any of the Documents of Vatican II but your argument is built on the premise that the Documents of Vatican II are protected from error because it was an Ecumenical Council. Please cite a source that Ecumenical Councils are, in general, protected from error by the guarantee of the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit protects the Church from error when the Church invokes the charism of infallibility. And that was not done in Vatican II. Vatican II contains no infallible statements. If you think otherwise then please cite the Dogma that was defined at the Council.
And, again, I don’t believe there are any errors in the Documents of Vatican II. There are ambiguities which can and have been twisted to seem like error by various groups but there is no real error.
James
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Teresita
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To say that ‘Vatican II was hijacked’ is precisely to affirm what most people on this list (among whom I’d count myself) are saying: that the documents of VII are not in error, but that they were used by those with a particular agenda: call it liberal, neo-modernist or whatever. The image is of a ship or aircraft: the vessel itself is perfectly sound and is being directed to a particular, legitimate destination - but if the hijackers take over, it will be diverted from its proper port and taken elsewhere by force. This seems to me a very vivid and altogether convincing metaphor.
To continue the image: the reason that the documents of the Council could be thus hijacked was the purposeful abandonment of anti-hijacker scanners and searches - here, the anathemata and rigorous exclusions of anything which could be interpreted as less than orthodox, or even simply ‘offensive to pious ears’. Pope John XXIII deliberately avoided this - he wanted to be positive, not negative. It reminds me of the Authorities in my own profession (teaching) who tell us that we must couch everything in terms of encouragement, never criticism: as a result, children become angry and discouraged when they do, eventually, meet criticism. Did you know that, some years ago, American children, tested in an exam. which compared about 50 countries, were found to be in the lowest quartile as far as score went; however, they were right at the top when they were asked how they thought they’d done. Self-esteem can be harmful when it’s baseless; and if the world is reassured at every turn that it’s doing just fine, whereas the Church has to apologise for all previous actions, it’s just the same.
Sorry - don’t quite know how I got to this point. Must be all that coursework I’ve been marking over the holidays (“This is a very interesting essay; you could improve it slightly by using full stops and consulting a dictionary occasionally.”)
Sue
To continue the image: the reason that the documents of the Council could be thus hijacked was the purposeful abandonment of anti-hijacker scanners and searches - here, the anathemata and rigorous exclusions of anything which could be interpreted as less than orthodox, or even simply ‘offensive to pious ears’. Pope John XXIII deliberately avoided this - he wanted to be positive, not negative. It reminds me of the Authorities in my own profession (teaching) who tell us that we must couch everything in terms of encouragement, never criticism: as a result, children become angry and discouraged when they do, eventually, meet criticism. Did you know that, some years ago, American children, tested in an exam. which compared about 50 countries, were found to be in the lowest quartile as far as score went; however, they were right at the top when they were asked how they thought they’d done. Self-esteem can be harmful when it’s baseless; and if the world is reassured at every turn that it’s doing just fine, whereas the Church has to apologise for all previous actions, it’s just the same.
Sorry - don’t quite know how I got to this point. Must be all that coursework I’ve been marking over the holidays (“This is a very interesting essay; you could improve it slightly by using full stops and consulting a dictionary occasionally.”)
Sue
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katherine2
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buffalo said:
Yes. The Council Fathers are now all in Cuba, hoping for release.
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fix
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I agree. It is not that VII was invalid, but it was hijacked by the heterodox who think the Church is their private property. Each bishop, priest, layman, etc can claim VII said this or that or the Spirit of VII mandates this or that. Never being true to the authentic intent of the council.
Time for a reform of the reform.
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oat_soda
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first, im surprised your from portland or, a diocese that is bankrupt because of the plague of homosexuality. second, did you read the article? it was an excellent analysis of how VII failed to meet its objectives and how it was hijacked by the times.
look at the facts, priestly ordinations are at a all time low since shortly after the end of the council, mass attendence is down to around 30% from 80% of catholics (of which nearly half voted for a pro-abortion candidate) and divorse rates between catholics and non-catholics are exactly the same not to mention the horrible catechesis of the last 40 years. was this the intended fruit of VII? open your eyes, the church and society are in bad shape -4,000 babies killed a day!
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terrcatholic
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Well, I was listening to Father Corpao on EWTN the other night, and he talked about his calling, and all of the different orders called him and wanted him to go with them, and their big sell was “Well, you know after V2, our Order can allow you now as a Priest to wear every day clothes, etc etc” He said “Forget it!”. If I wanted to blend in I would never have become a Priest. When you go to church now you have the sisters dressed in their slacks strummin that ole guitar, sometimes with a crucifix, when you go to a Traditional Church, the feeling of reverence when you see all of the sisters go up to the altar rail, kneel to receive our Lord in their mouth from CONSECRATED hands and not some old lady eucharistic minister. It makes you realize the sacrifice of these people who entered Holy Orders and took those vows and recieved that sacrment, that Yes,the are different and special. Now when someone goes to church, and they see the priest, they pull their little child close next to them because they fear they will be abused. My cousin just refused having his son be an altar boy as he said no way would he allow him to be anywhere near a priest alone, and God forbid if he ever wanted to be a Priest. Pre Vatican II, Mothers Dreamed that their children would enter vocations as such. Thank you Vatican II and your liberalism for ruining what we love so much.
katherine2:
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katherine2
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I guess at least you can be assured she is not menstrating.
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TNT
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buffalo said:
It is blatantly clear that the net effect of V2 has been devastating to the Church in every part of the civilized world.
Whether or not it was hijacked, the results are anything but beneficial to Her.
I have more Faith in the Holy Ghost than to think He is a Masochist toward the Bride of Christ.
Therefore, V2 was a source of great harm to the Church either directly or indirectly thru misapplication. If there had been no V2, then misapplication would not be possible.
It does not matter whether it taught error explicitly, implicitly or not at all. What matters is that we, both Traditionalists and all flavors of conservatives work toward the repair of the Church. Each will go about it in different ways…some more aggressive, some less.
BUT, we must first agree somehow that the objective reality is that it was at least complicite if not directly responsible in totality, for the disaster of historical proportions.
Until the Faithful join instead of scatter toward repairing the Church, things will not get better. The hierarchy as a group have been sterile in reversing the negative trends in the Catholic Church.
If we never remove this masterful mask of “innocence” from V2, then absolutely nothing will improve in the long term.
The Trads cannot do it alone nor can the conservatives, all flavors included. If the two were ever to join together on a common agenda the effects would shortly arrive as they represent 70% of the financial support of the Church and 80% of Her attendance. (Those %'s are just a common sense guess, so do not ask me for a Funk and Wagnall)
Now my question here is:
Are we willing to remove the masterful mask of innocence from V2, or continue to
maintain that it was a blessing to the Church, regardless of subsequent conditions?
That the Holy Ghost intended all the disasters as fruits for the Body of Christ to Enjoy?
If we keep attacking the messengers, the common enemy gets a free entry into the veins of the Church.
(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
St Athanasius Guide Us
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katherine2
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Holy Saint Athanasius guide as we worship to appreciate how you worshipped. Open our eyes to the benefit of hearing the Old Testament at Holy Mass. Help us to more deeply experience the wonderful sacrament of the altar administered as you did in the form of bread and wine. You, in your outstanding holiness celebrated the Liturgy in the language of the people, teaching them love of the Lord, help us to do the same when we worship. O holy Athanasius, in our liturgical renewal, we imitate you by now including acclamations during the Eucharistic Pray and no longer minimizing the great Kiss of Peace. May we appreciate the holy practices you followed tand that we too follow in our renewed liturgy. AMEN.
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oat_soda
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I sympathize with you trust me. it is hard not to associate VII and all of the destruction in its aftermath. But when you read the documents, you realize that they are subject to interpretation like anything else. SC can be vague and ambiguous which created disaster when it was put in the wrong hands.
Keep in mind that the devil has been given more liberty by God. Pope Leo XIII and even St. John Bosco foresaw the looming onslaught of the devil. who can say he isn’t running the world right now, especially during the 20th century? it even says in the bible that all of the principalities were given to him and that he was cast down to earth and isn’t locked up in hell yet. the devil is certainly at work in the church today at all levels. fr. Corapi pointed out that the present homo scandal in the priesthood could of only come out of the bowls of hell.
this attack goes way back to the reformation and the 17th century. look at how France, a catholic country, persecuted the catholic church during the French revolution. in the 50’s, the church was in better shape but i think there were some serious cracks in society then. things were overly materialistic and catholics wanted to blend in with american culture. i remember seeing some art work from the late 40s which was pornographic. so this underlying attack by masonic/satanic forces has always been at work in our society trying to undermine and destroy the catholic church, which they pretty much did.
and notice how subtle satan was during his attack. first it starts with contraception, then it’s abortion, now it’s gay marriage. in the church it started with communion in hand, abolishment of latin and traditional devotions, universal abuse of lay eucharistic ministers,… etc. satan doesn’t want you to know he’s there. he’s been slowly raising our threshold for detecting him so that now we are deaf to his works. his attack is centered on the eucharist and that’s why he’s been at work on the priesthood. look at how vocations are down to near nothing in large catholic cities.
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TNT
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Help me stumble thru this:
- Athanasius said Mass in Greek. Latin was the language of the empire. So, do we need to have the Mass in Athanasius language…Greek?
- I love ANTIQUARIANISM too. I hated to see it condemned by PP XII.
- P Paul VI fulfilled his objectives well on the new Mass. Unfortunately, it was not antiquarianism that he sought as you suppose: But you refuse to acknowledge that when I showed you the interview with the ABBOTT involved. Why is that?
Even I acknowledge when the proof is presented. Why do you ignore it? I really wonder.
Do you not care about your own credibility? You asked for proof that P Paul’s objective was to bring the NOM into agreement with protestants, and I showed you from the closest of sources available. Yet you acknowledge nothing presented nor offer any refutation.
are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ. St Athanasius Guide Us where ere you desire
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TNT
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Pope Pius XII Again:
BTW: This thread was specific to the Council preceding the NOM by 5 years. So I will respect the thread starter and no longer follow any commentary on the Mass. That subject is abundantly available on other threads.
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Jakub
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I do enjoy to see Novus Ordo people use Latin in their quotes etc.
If one wanted to revise the Roman Liturgy, one would just translate the Latin accurately into the vernacular and it is complete.
One would not destroy its structure and tradition with “Liturgical Experts” outside the Church.
The separated brethern identfied in many documents are not the Orthodox or Eastern Catholics but Protestants.
So who are you trying to bring back into the fold ? Duh.
james, proud to be a traditional, as my parents & grandparents were.
If one wanted to revise the Roman Liturgy, one would just translate the Latin accurately into the vernacular and it is complete.
One would not destroy its structure and tradition with “Liturgical Experts” outside the Church.
The separated brethern identfied in many documents are not the Orthodox or Eastern Catholics but Protestants.
So who are you trying to bring back into the fold ? Duh.
james, proud to be a traditional, as my parents & grandparents were.
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