Offending God

[Porcupine]

Well, once a person gets an idea into their head that’s erroneous it’s really hard to get it out. You cannot change God, God is unchanging, He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. No matter what you believe you cannot change Him. But God has feelings. He loves everybody and it is His desire that all men be saved. Yes, you can offend him by sinning because that’s His nature as God but you are not effecting a change in Him.

Sorry, you’re just not as powerful as you thought you were!

Thanks, Ricko, but that just sounds like double-talk. If something/someone is offended by what I have done, then I have caused a change of state in that entity/person. They have changed from being un-offended to being offended. That’s just the plain sense of the words.

 

[Porcupine]

All you need is a mustard seed!! God will work with you There are times I picture Jesus very excited saying, “Come on, Teri! I have such a great adventure ahead for you!”

I’m sure he’s thinking the same about you:thumbsup:

Praying for you,
Teri

Thanks, Teri.

 

[Porcupine]

Don’t forget we are made in God’s image. Do you think he’s incapable of emotion?


I’ve actually said something exactly like that!

You’re apologizing because you did something wrong and you know it. You need to acknowledge your sinfulness and promise to try to do better. Putting it into words, saying it to God rather than just thinking vaguely about it helps you to realize that it’s not just about “you”, it’s about your relationship with God. If someone you love was always doing things to bug you but never apologizing for it, wouldn’t that offend you? The other person could say “well you know I love you and I’m sorry, why do I have to say it?” Wouldn’t you say “well it’s still nice to hear it”

If, as you say, God has emotions, then all the things you say here make sense. But, for me at least, picturing God as emotional, getting weepy or blue about all the sinning we get up to down here, just doesn’t jibe with the idea of God as all-knowing, unchanging, etc…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

With respect, what about Jesus? Jesus is ‘just as much God’ as the Father or Spirit–and I think we can picture Jesus having emotions. . .

 

[Porcupine]

With respect, what about Jesus? Jesus is ‘just as much God’ as the Father or Spirit–and I think we can picture Jesus having emotions. . .

True, that’s easier to picture. That puts a more human face on it. And of course we’re used to seeing artwork in which Jesus looks dismayed and maybe on the verge of shedding a tear or two. But if he’s God, then that just pushes the argument back to where it was: he’s God, and I still maintain that I can’t really be said to *change *God. Maybe I could offend Jesus’ human nature, but not his divine nature.

I think if there were a ready answer on this, I’d have latched onto it by now—though I do appreciate the attempts here, and I was obviously drawn to ask the question. I’ve been seeking for a long time, without much in the way of results, unfortunately. And I miss my faith.

 

[Porcupine]

And it’s not just this question that is the faith-hurdle for me. It seems that every time I’m feeling drawn back toward Catholicism (because, as I say, I DO miss it), I come across some passage, some concept, some doctrine or other, that just throws up a roadblock. Very frustrating, and I’ve had a lifetime of it.

 

[Tezza]

And it’s not just this question that is the faith-hurdle for me. It seems that every time I’m feeling drawn back toward Catholicism (because, as I say, I DO miss it), I come across some passage, some concept, some doctrine or other, that just throws up a roadblock. Very frustrating, and I’ve had a lifetime of it.

So, can you focus on what you do know? What is it about Catholicism that you miss?

Do you feel you have to have all the answers in order to even attend Mass or sit in Adoration or have a conversation with Jesus?

The person I was 15 years ago is nowhere near the person I am today. And I never stopped going to Mass or “practicing” my faith. But man, you should’ve heard my justifications for sin back then I was sure I knew better than God and/or the Church on many, many matters. Thank you, God, for being patient and merciful.

 

[Porcupine]

So, can you focus on what you do know? What is it about Catholicism that you miss?

Do you feel you have to have all the answers in order to even attend Mass or sit in Adoration or have a conversation with Jesus?

The person I was 15 years ago is nowhere near the person I am today. And I never stopped going to Mass or “practicing” my faith. But man, you should’ve heard my justifications for sin back then I was sure I knew better than God and/or the Church on many, many matters. Thank you, God, for being patient and merciful.

I guess what I miss most is the comfort and satisfaction that comes from believing. It’s very nice to feel that you’ve got the meaning of life more or less figured out—knowing that it’s tough, of course, to live right and achieve the goal, but that there IS a meaning, and it’s fairly clearly spelled out. That’s what I miss. No, I don’t feel that I have to have all the answers in order to attend Mass (I do that somewhat regularly with my wife, who is a devoted and very involved Catholic), but I need to have at least some basic faith for any of those exercises to mean much to me.

I don’t feel as though I’m avoiding it in order to justify some sinful or otherwise decadent lifestlye; I just flat don’t believe much of what the Church teaches anymore–in the way of dogma and doctrine, I mean. Their moral program seems right on the money to me, however. No quibbles there.

It’s a weird situash, but, as I say, it’s been going on a long time. I’m fifty.

 

[aarontassin]

I understand what the concept of offending God means, and the sort of thing that is said to cause it. My problem is whether or not it’s really possible to offend the almighy, omniscient, omnipotent creator.

Oh ok… The Creator? That’s completely different from God. I don’t think you can offend the Creator. He created all things good and evil and gave you the option to choose. I really don’t think the Creator cares either way.

 

[Porcupine]

Oh ok… The Creator? That’s completely different from God. I don’t think you can offend the Creator. He created all things good and evil and gave you the option to choose. I really don’t think the Creator cares either way.

I thought God *was *the creator. Please 'splain.

 

[Tezza]

I guess what I miss most is the comfort and satisfaction that comes from believing. It’s very nice to feel that you’ve got the meaning of life more or less figured out—knowing that it’s tough, of course, to live right and achieve the goal, but that there IS a meaning, and it’s fairly clearly spelled out. That’s what I miss. No, I don’t feel that I have to have all the answers in order to attend Mass (I do that somewhat regularly with my wife, who is a devoted and very involved Catholic), but I need to have at least some basic faith for any of those exercises to mean much to me.

QUOTE]

OK. Sorry for all of the personal questions…are you struggling to even believe in God? In Christianity?

On a big level I feel I have life figured out…love God with all of your heart, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Day to day level–not so much.

 

[latin_rite]

I understand what the concept of offending God means, and the sort of thing that is said to cause it. My problem is whether or not it’s really possible to offend the almighy, omniscient, omnipotent creator.

Yeah i know what you mean. I don’t think if you offend God he is suprised or hurt. Maybe it dissapoints him. Sort of like if someone calls you stupid. It is offending you. But does it hurt you? Not really ( well it shouldn’t) Because thats their view And their view really has no effect on you know does it? well unless he is your boss or a protentional employer. Then yeah i suppose it does. But…since noone is Gods boss. It doesn’t apply to him.

 

[NoWhereMan]

I understand what the concept of offending God means, and the sort of thing that is said to cause it. My problem is whether or not it’s really possible to offend the almighy, omniscient, omnipotent creator.

God never changes, he is a pure spirit, He has no need of us, we have need of him
. He is sufficient unto himself, whether we sin & offend him or not, I dont believe he changes. I think it is Jesus , who laid down his life for us that we offend

 

[Porcupine]

Porcupine;6010080:

I guess what I miss most is the comfort and satisfaction that comes from believing. It’s very nice to feel that you’ve got the meaning of life more or less figured out—knowing that it’s tough, of course, to live right and achieve the goal, but that there IS a meaning, and it’s fairly clearly spelled out. That’s what I miss. No, I don’t feel that I have to have all the answers in order to attend Mass (I do that somewhat regularly with my wife, who is a devoted and very involved Catholic), but I need to have at least some basic faith for any of those exercises to mean much to me.

QUOTE]

OK. Sorry for all of the personal questions…are you struggling to even believe in God? In Christianity?

On a big level I feel I have life figured out…love God with all of your heart, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. Day to day level–not so much.

No worries about the personal questions; Porcupine’s not my real name. Funny thing is, I don’t really struggle about believing in God. I do believe in God. I believe God created both the universe and the moral law that underlies our consciences. But I feel, really, that that’s about all I can say with any degree of confidence. Christianity, I don’t know. Not so much, I guess, though I will say I have great admiration for its history and institutions, and for its accomplishments. Most of the people I love and who love me are Christians of one stripe or another. In fact, the best people I know are Christians. I used to be a fairly fervent one myself.

I’ve looked into other religions a lot, spent considerable time among Buddhists and Hindus, and the viewpoint I’ve come to in recent years is that all these religions, Catholicism included, are built around a core of Truth–the existence of God and the moral law mentioned above–and that each of them has also accumulated multiple centuries’ worth of its own specific cultural baggage. Once you have that viewpoint, it’s tough to go back and give a full, unquestioning embrace to those kinds specifics in my own tradition, which is Catholicism. But I don’t have the cultural background to really jump into Buddhism or Hinduism with any real sense of belonging, and really they’re not that attractive to me. So I’d like to rejoin the Church, with my old level of fervor, but that doesn’t seem to be available to me, and doing intellectual handstands in order to re-convince myself that I “believe” doesn’t seem possible either. So I kind of limp along.

 

[aarontassin]

I thought God *was *the creator. Please 'splain.

I thought that as well. I started questioning that when I started reading the Bible everyday and devoting every waking moment of my day to searching for the Truth that is evident in the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus is “The Son of Man” AND “The Son of God.” That alone made me ask some questions. I also started questioning the polarity paradigm that is evident in all creation. AKA the Good/Evil, Light/Dark, Positive/Negative. The Creator created ALL things good and evil as well as light and dark. If God is “ALL good” then I have a hard time believing that the Creator is God.
The Christ said, “The gate that leads to Heaven is narrow and the path difficult. The gate that leads to destruction is wide and many will choose it.” The gate is wide because it is a path that has been designed for the masses. The path to Heaven is narrow because it is a path made for YOU! The Apostles taught people to believe NOTHING and question EVERYTHING. Our modern day leadership, politics and religion, has been hijacked by deceit. The masses are deliberately lead astray into thinking that God is a man in the clouds that watches and knows everything you do. Two-thousand years ago, the masses crucified the Truth. Do you really think they are going to tell us the Truth now? Hell no!
I’m not knocking the practice of attending church and “Mass” regularly, but if you think you are going to find God that way or establish a relationship with the All Mighty Creator then you are going to lose everything. God is not there. You have been led to believe that He is because if you were to figure out your realationship with God and the Creator is PERSONAL, then the Church wouldn’t have their 12 figure bank account. It’s all about manipulation and control through instilling fear in the masses. Fear that if you don’t go to church then God will send you to Hell. Don’t take anything I say seriously. I just feel that this is my narrow path. Find your own. Question everything because one thing is for certain. In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth makes you a terrorist. - George Orwell
You will suffer everyday if you thirst for the Truth. You will feel as if you are being crucified right alongside Christ. It’s an amazing feeling… But to " 'splain " I think the bible makes it clear that God and The Creator are different."

 

[baltobetsy]

There’s a popular saying that goes like this: If you are far from God, who moved? You did, of course. God, unchangeable and perfect, did not. When one offends God, he puts himself in a position of incompatibility with God - he (the sinner) moves away. God does not change in any way as a result of your offense. God has not moved, and when you repent, you are welcome to move back to your position close to God. God’s love and mercy are always there for you, unchanged.

Does this help?

Betsy

 

[Porcupine]

I thought that as well. I started questioning that when I started reading the Bible everyday and devoting every waking moment of my day to searching for the Truth that is evident in the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus is “The Son of Man” AND “The Son of God.” That alone made me ask some questions. I also started questioning the polarity paradigm that is evident in all creation. AKA the Good/Evil, Light/Dark, Positive/Negative. The Creator created ALL things good and evil as well as light and dark. If God is “ALL good” then I have a hard time believing that the Creator is God.
The Christ said, “The gate that leads to Heaven is narrow and the path difficult. The gate that leads to destruction is wide and many will choose it.” The gate is wide because it is a path that has been designed for the masses. The path to Heaven is narrow because it is a path made for YOU! The Apostles taught people to believe NOTHING and question EVERYTHING. Our modern day leadership, politics and religion, has been hijacked by deceit. The masses are deliberately lead astray into thinking that God is a man in the clouds that watches and knows everything you do. Two-thousand years ago, the masses crucified the Truth. Do you really think they are going to tell us the Truth now? Hell no!
I’m not knocking the practice of attending church and “Mass” regularly, but if you think you are going to find God that way or establish a relationship with the All Mighty Creator then you are going to lose everything. God is not there. You have been led to believe that He is because if you were to figure out your realationship with God and the Creator is PERSONAL, then the Church wouldn’t have their 12 figure bank account. It’s all about manipulation and control through instilling fear in the masses. Fear that if you don’t go to church then God will send you to Hell. Don’t take anything I say seriously. I just feel that this is my narrow path. Find your own. Question everything because one thing is for certain. In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth makes you a terrorist. - George Orwell
You will suffer everyday if you thirst for the Truth. You will feel as if you are being crucified right alongside Christ. It’s an amazing feeling… But to " 'splain " I think the bible makes it clear that God and The Creator are different."

Thanks for the explanation. I have to say wow, weird theory. Doesn’t seem to have much to do with Catholicism, but I’m glad it’s working for you.

 

[Porcupine]

There’s a popular saying that goes like this: If you are far from God, who moved? You did, of course. God, unchangeable and perfect, did not. When one offends God, he puts himself in a position of incompatibility with God - he (the sinner) moves away. God does not change in any way as a result of your offense. God has not moved, and when you repent, you are welcome to move back to your position close to God. God’s love and mercy are always there for you, unchanged.

Does this help?

Betsy

Thanks, Betsy. I see what you mean here, but it seems like just another way of saying that “offending God” doesn’t really mean “offending God.” Seems like there’s a dozen ways to nuance the idea, but the plain sense of the Act of Contrition seems pretty clear. I appreciate the post, though.

 

[Tezza]

I thought that as well. I started questioning that when I started reading the Bible everyday and devoting every waking moment of my day to searching for the Truth that is evident in the teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus is “The Son of Man” AND “The Son of God.” That alone made me ask some questions. I also started questioning the polarity paradigm that is evident in all creation. AKA the Good/Evil, Light/Dark, Positive/Negative. The Creator created ALL things good and evil as well as light and dark. If God is “ALL good” then I have a hard time believing that the Creator is God.
The Christ said, “The gate that leads to Heaven is narrow and the path difficult. The gate that leads to destruction is wide and many will choose it.” The gate is wide because it is a path that has been designed for the masses. The path to Heaven is narrow because it is a path made for YOU! The Apostles taught people to believe NOTHING and question EVERYTHING. Our modern day leadership, politics and religion, has been hijacked by deceit. The masses are deliberately lead astray into thinking that God is a man in the clouds that watches and knows everything you do. Two-thousand years ago, the masses crucified the Truth. Do you really think they are going to tell us the Truth now? Hell no!
I’m not knocking the practice of attending church and “Mass” regularly, but if you think you are going to find God that way or establish a relationship with the All Mighty Creator then you are going to lose everything. God is not there. You have been led to believe that He is because if you were to figure out your realationship with God and the Creator is PERSONAL, then the Church wouldn’t have their 12 figure bank account. It’s all about manipulation and control through instilling fear in the masses. Fear that if you don’t go to church then God will send you to Hell. Don’t take anything I say seriously. I just feel that this is my narrow path. Find your own. Question everything because one thing is for certain. In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth makes you a terrorist. - George Orwell
You will suffer everyday if you thirst for the Truth. You will feel as if you are being crucified right alongside Christ. It’s an amazing feeling… But to " 'splain " I think the bible makes it clear that God and The Creator are different."

Don’t think you’ll find that one in the Catechism.

 

[Tezza]

Porcupine’s not my real name.

Get outta here!

do believe in God. I believe God created both the universe and the moral law that underlies our consciences. But I feel, really, that that’s about all I can say with any degree of confidence.

Well, you’re doing better than a lot of people. I never struggled with a belief in God, either, and always felt blessed to have that gift.

Christianity, I don’t know. Not so much, I guess, though I will say I have great admiration for its history and institutions, and for its accomplishments. Most of the people I love and who love me are Christians of one stripe or another. In fact, the best people I know are Christians. I used to be a fairly fervent one myself.

Gotcha. You speak highly of Christianity, but how do you feel about Christ? I’m personally blown away by the guy. My hero.

If you don’t mind my asking, what caused the enthusiasm to wane? Was it your studies of other religions?

I think you’re on a great path, even if you’re just limping along. It feels to me that when God puts questions in our hearts, it’s because he’s encouraging us to move up the ladder. He wants intimacy. Questioning leads to discovery. It leads to communication. It leads to a deepening relationship. My most intense prayer times are when I get mad at God. I throw my tantrum and God says, “Alright. Now we’re talking. Thank you for finally being honest with me!”

I’ve looked into other religions a lot, spent considerable time among Buddhists and Hindus, and the viewpoint I’ve come to in recent years is that all these religions, Catholicism included, are built around a core of Truth–the existence of God and the moral law mentioned above–and that each of them has also accumulated multiple centuries’ worth of its own specific cultural baggage. Once you have that viewpoint, it’s tough to go back and give a full, unquestioning embrace to those kinds specifics in my own tradition, which is Catholicism.

I hear you. My World Religions course in college really shook me up. I’m glad it did, though. Brought me to the place where I really owned my faith, not just went along with what people told me. Led me to a place where I started to study. I gotta tell you, if I’m wrong in following Jesus who went through what he went through, and he turns out not to be God, I’m still glad I followed him. I find the fact that the Apostles went to their graves proclaiming Jesus as the Messiah pretty compelling as well. I’m cool with dying for Jesus, but tortured for Him? Yikes! I hope I’m never put in that predicament.

So I’d like to rejoin the Church, with my old level of fervor, but that doesn’t seem to be available to me, and doing intellectual handstands in order to re-convince myself that I “believe” doesn’t seem possible either.

All things are possible with God! I don’t think he wants your old fervor. I think he wants a better relationship than you had before.

I lifted you up in prayer at Mass this evening. Praying God hits you over the head with a 2x4 (but not because He’s offended )