Official Lutheran Anti-Papacy Document

[Catholic_Dude]

From the Book of Concord which lists the official Lutheran documents one of them is called:
A Treatise on the Power and Primacy of the Pope. A lutheran pointed it out to me and I decided to respond. I went through that document and all its “proof texts” and found that it was misleading unfounded commentts with a twist at the end.

The end of the document is very interesting:40] …the Pope assumes to himself divine authority in a threefold manner. First, because he takes to himself the right to change the doctrine of Christ and services instituted by God, and wants his own doctrine and his own services to be observed as divine; secondly, because he takes to himself the power not only of binding and loosing in this life, but also the jurisdiction over souls after this life; thirdly, because the Pope does not want to be judged by the Church or by any one, and puts his own authority ahead of the decision of Councils and the entire Church. But to be unwilling to be judged by the Church or by any one is to make oneself God. Lastly, these errors so horrible, and this impiety, he defends with the greatest cruelty, and puts to death those dissenting.
Now if people would stop and think about this, they would see these same claims that these men attack the CC over are the very things they have done! Classical means of usurping of power! Trash the opponent and smear him first!

42] To dissent from the agreement of so many nations and to be called schismatics is a grave matter. But divine authority commands all not to be allies and defenders of impiety and unjust cruelty. On this account our consciences are sufficiently excused; for the errors of the kingdom of the Pope are manifest. And Scripture with its entire voice exclaims that these errors are a teaching of demons and of Antichrist.
Aha! This one is a keeper. From the horses mouth we see this action taken by these men was illegal, yet they had to “excuse” themselves.

Another keeper:57] Therefore, even though the bishop of Rome had the primacy by divine right, yet since he defends godless services and doctrine conflicting with the Gospel, obedience is not due him; yea, it is necessary to resist him as Antichrist. The errors of the Pope are manifest and not trifling.
How much more clear can it be? These men openly admit to usurping of authority!

Im interested to hear this…67] For wherever the Church is, there is the authority [command] to administer the Gospel. Therefore it is necessary for the Church to retain the authority to call, elect, and ordain ministers. And this authority is a gift which in reality is given to the Church, which no human power can wrest from the Church…

Here we see the foundation of confusion and chaos, here we see the divine right of ordination given to whomever wants to become a church authority. Either these guys didnt think about what they were saying or else they had evil intentions in mind.
What exactly are they proving by saying “no human power can wrest from the church” when they are the ones setting up shop?
76] Since, therefore, bishops have tyrannically transferred this jurisdiction to themselves alone, and have basely abused it, there is no need, because of this jurisdiction, to obey bishops. But since there are just reasons why we do not obey, it is right also to restore this jurisdiction to godly pastors [to whom, by Christ’s command, it belongs], and to see to it that it is legitimately exercised for the reformation of morals and the glory of God.

Phase two in destroying the church. Attack the office of Bishop itself. By doing so they dont have to recognize that authority and dont have to apply it to their own selves.

There is no hiding anymore! These men openly admit over and over again their illegal and shameless usurping of the Church of Christ!

 

[Catholic_Dude]

DOCTORS AND PREACHERS
Who Subscribed the Augsburg Confession and Apology, A. D. 1537.

According to the command of the most illustrious princes and of the orders and states professing the doctrine of the Gospel, we have reread the articles of the Confession presented to the Emperor in the Assembly at Augsburg, and by the favor of God all the preachers who have been present in this Assembly at Smalcald harmoniously declare that they believe and teach in their churches according to the articles of the Confession and Apology. They also declare that they approve the article concerning the primacy of the Pope and his power, and the power and jurisdiction of bishops, which was presented to the princes in this Assembly at Smalcald. Accordingly, they subscribe their names.

What so they turn to princes and governments who support them yet trash the CC for its supposed governmental ties?1] I, Dr. John Bugenhagen, Pomeranus, subscribe the Articles of the Augsburg Confession, the Apology, and the Article presented to the princes at Smalcald concerning the Papacy. 2] I also, Dr. Urban Rhegius, Superintendent of the churches in the Duchy of Lueneburg, subscribe.

3] Nicolaus Amsdorf of Magdeburg subscribed.

…
…
…
31] Frederick Myconius subscribed for himself and Justus Menius.
32] Ambrose Blaurer.

Who are these men? How many are bishops? How many are priests? What happened to all the other Christians in the world? I have read, and again and again reread, the Confession and Apology presented at Augsburg by the Most Illustrious Prince, the Elector of Saxony, and by the other princes and estates of the Roman Empire, to his Imperial Majesty. I have also read the Formula of Concord … And in my humble opinion I judge that all these agree with Holy Scripture, and with the belief of the true and genuine catholic Church. But although in so great a number of most learned men who have now assembled at Smalcald I acknowledge that I am of all the least yet, as I am not permitted to await the end of the assembly, I ask you, most renowned man, Dr. John Bugenhagen, most revered Father in Christ, that your courtesy may add my name, if it be necessary, to all that I have above mentioned. For I testify in this my own handwriting that I thus hold, confess, and constantly will teach, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Wow.

 

[jim1130]

DOCTORS AND PREACHERS
Who Subscribed the Augsburg Confession and Apology, A. D. 1537.

According to the command of the most illustrious princes and of the orders and states professing the doctrine of the Gospel, we have reread the articles of the Confession presented to the Emperor in the Assembly at Augsburg, and by the favor of God all the preachers who have been present in this Assembly at Smalcald harmoniously declare that they believe and teach in their churches according to the articles of the Confession and Apology. They also declare that they approve the article concerning the primacy of the Pope and his power, and the power and jurisdiction of bishops, which was presented to the princes in this Assembly at Smalcald. Accordingly, they subscribe their names.

What so they turn to princes and governments who support them yet trash the CC for its supposed governmental ties?1] I, Dr. John Bugenhagen, Pomeranus, subscribe the Articles of the Augsburg Confession, the Apology, and the Article presented to the princes at Smalcald concerning the Papacy. 2] I also, Dr. Urban Rhegius, Superintendent of the churches in the Duchy of Lueneburg, subscribe.

3] Nicolaus Amsdorf of Magdeburg subscribed.

…
…
…
31] Frederick Myconius subscribed for himself and Justus Menius.
32] Ambrose Blaurer.

Who are these men? How many are bishops? How many are priests? What happened to all the other Christians in the world? I have read, and again and again reread, the Confession and Apology presented at Augsburg by the Most Illustrious Prince, the Elector of Saxony, and by the other princes and estates of the Roman Empire, to his Imperial Majesty. I have also read the Formula of Concord … And in my humble opinion I judge that all these agree with Holy Scripture, and with the belief of the true and genuine catholic Church. But although in so great a number of most learned men who have now assembled at Smalcald I acknowledge that I am of all the least yet, as I am not permitted to await the end of the assembly, I ask you, most renowned man, Dr. John Bugenhagen, most revered Father in Christ, that your courtesy may add my name, if it be necessary, to all that I have above mentioned. For I testify in this my own handwriting that I thus hold, confess, and constantly will teach, through Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Wow.

This is from Saint Francis de Sales (1567-1622), Bishop and Doctor of the Church.

The Catholic Controversy: angelfire.com/ms/seanie/fds/fds_index.html

The Authority of the Church: angelfire.com/ms/seanie/fds/fds_church0.html

The Authority of the Pope: angelfire.com/ms/seanie/papacy/fds_pope0.html

The Protestant Violation of Holy Scripture: angelfire.com/ms/seanie/deuteros/francisdesales.html

Peace.

 

[Angainor]

Catholic Dude:

Now if people would stop and think about this, they would see these same claims that these men attack the CC over are the very things they have done!

Could you cite some examples?

42] …On this account our consciences are sufficiently excused…
Aha! This one is a keeper. From the horses mouth we see this action taken by these men was illegal, yet they had to “excuse” themselves.

The wording of this was very carefully chosen. It is one thing for us to declare our consciences sufficiently excused. It is quite another to excuse ourselves.

Another keeper:57] Therefore, even though the bishop of Rome had the primacy by divine right, yet since he defends godless services and doctrine conflicting with the Gospel, obedience is not due him; yea, it is necessary to resist him as Antichrist. The errors of the Pope are manifest and not trifling.
How much more clear can it be? These men openly admit to usurping of authority!

Would there be any point in denying it?

What exactly are they proving by saying “no human power can wrest from the church” when they are the ones setting up shop?

Who is “they” and what “shop” are you accusing them of setting up?

There is no hiding anymore! These men openly admit over and over again their illegal and shameless usurping of the Church of Christ!

Umm… No hiding anymore? That document was written in AD1537. No one has been hiding.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Angainor:

Could you cite some examples?

he takes to himself the right to change the doctrine of Christ and services instituted by God, and wants his own doctrine and his own services to be observed as divine;
Read the whole link and you will see its them saying what the “truth” is, one example:
I have also read the Formula of Concord … And in my humble opinion I judge that all these agree with Holy Scripture, and with the belief of the true and genuine catholic Church.
Who gave these men the authority to write up their own doctrine?
secondly, because he takes to himself the power not only of binding and loosing in this life, but also the jurisdiction over souls after this life;
Well lets see who is taking up the power of binding and loosing:
But since there are just reasons why we do not obey, it is right also to restore this jurisdiction to godly pastors [to whom, by Christ’s command, it belongs], and to see to it that it is legitimately exercised
Finally:
thirdly, because the Pope does not want to be judged by the Church or by any one, and puts his own authority ahead of the decision of Councils and the entire Church.
They dont want to be judged either:
To dissent from the agreement of so many nations and to be called schismatics is a grave matter. But divine authority commands all not to be allies and defenders of impiety and unjust cruelty. On this account our consciences are sufficiently excused

Since, therefore, bishops have tyrannically transferred this jurisdiction to themselves alone, and have basely abused it, there is no need, because of this jurisdiction,** to obey bishops**.

The wording of this was very carefully chosen. It is one thing for us to declare our consciences sufficiently excused. It is quite another to excuse ourselves.

Whats the difference?

Would there be any point in denying it?

With the shameless schism/heresy they were taking part in they openly admit it. Think about what your saying, your agreeing that the “the bishop of Rome had the primacy by divine right”, do they have this primacy? do they have this divine right? no, yet they take this authority upon themself.

Who is “they” and what “shop” are you accusing them of setting up?Umm…

They are establishing their personal version of the gospel and leading people astray.

No hiding anymore? That document was written in AD1537. No one has been hiding.

I have never seen this document quoted by anyone, its amazing no one has mentioned their openly admitting to these shameful acts.

 

[Angainor]

Catholic Dude:

Angainor:

                          The wording of this was very carefully chosen. It is one thing for us to declare *our consciences*

sufficiently excused. It is quite another to excuse ourselves.Whats the difference?

Ask Paul.

With the shameless schism/heresy they were taking part in they openly admit it. Think about what your saying, your agreeing that the “the bishop of Rome had the primacy by divine right”, do they have this primacy? do they have this divine right? no, yet they take this authority upon themself.

The operative word is “had”. There is no shame in disobeying that whom obediance is no longer due.

I have never seen this document quoted by anyone, its amazing no one has mentioned their openly admitting to these shameful acts.

It is boldly displayed on the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod website. We are not ashamed nor are we proud. Here we stand, we can do no other.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Ask Paul.

I know what he has to say about itching ears:
1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.
3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.-2Tm4

The operative word is “had”. There is no shame in disobeying that whom obediance is no longer due.

So at any time a person disagrees with their pastor it is their God given right to overthrow that pastor and set up your own teachings and church? The scary thing is, this is exactly what these “reformers” were saying and they were opening the door for.

It is boldly displayed on the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod website. We are not ashamed nor are we proud. Here we stand, we can do no other.

Im meant actually qutoing from it, especially the passages I cited. They are openly admitting to throwing off the men in power and establishing their own pastors to say what they want to hear.

 

[Angainor]

Catholic Dude:

Read the whole link and you will see its them saying what the “truth” is, one example:I have also read the Formula of Concord … And in my humble opinion I judge that all these agree with Holy Scripture, and with the belief of the true and genuine catholic Church.
Who gave these men the authority to write up their own doctrine?

These men are hardly setting themselves up as authorities. “IMHO I judge that…”

If it is also your humble opinion that… then we have something in common and can choose to gather together in Jesus name.

secondly, because he takes to himself the power not only of binding and loosing in this life, but also the jurisdiction over souls after this life;
Well lets see who is taking up the power of binding and loosing:But since there are just reasons why we do not obey, it is right also to restore this jurisdiction to godly pastors [to whom, by Christ’s command, it belongs], and to see to it that it is legitimately exercised

If you knew anything about the protestant office of pastors then you would know it is not the men writing the words you are reading from who are taking up the power of binding and loosing.

 

[Angainor]

Catholic Dude:

I know what he has to say about itching ears:1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.
3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.-2Tm4

The time has come for that, no doubt. I wish people wouldn’t choose to listen to teachers who say what their itching ears want to hear, but I know they are out there. I cannot answer for them.

Myself, I look to sound doctine. Do you look to sound doctrine? How do you know it is sound?

 

[Angainor]

CatholicDude:

So at any time a person disagrees with their pastor it is their God given right to overthrow that pastor and set up your own teachings and church?

God given right? No, not if it is by thier whim. But if there is cause? I think you know the answer to that. The document you are reading describes what cause a pastor can, in good conscience, be disobeyed.

Im meant actually qutoing from it, especially the passages I cited.

It is an old dispute. I don’t know what could be gained by going around quoting it. We go about our business.

…to say what they want to hear.

Umm… no.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

These men are hardly setting themselves up as authorities. “IMHO I judge that…”

amazing, so they dismantled the church authority and singned off on a bunch of doctrines but at the end of the day it was simply their “most humble opinion”? what prevents anyone from taking on this view and having their own most humble opinions?
what kind of leadership is this?

If it is also your humble opinion that… then we have something in common and can choose to gather together in Jesus name.

Just like any two or more people who gather have the option to preach whatever gospel they feel like it? I highly doubt that is what Jesus is saying, rather “if he fails to listen to the Church let him be to you as a heathen”

If you knew anything about the protestant office of pastors then you would know it is not the men writing the words you are reading from who are taking up the power of binding and loosing.

Throwing off the Pope, every single Bishop and priest with the stroke of a pen and you call that insignificant? Thats outright usurping of authority.

Myself, I look to sound doctine. Do you look to sound doctrine? How do you know it is sound?

According to the passage: 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
The lutheran document openly admits to writing those documents according to their own unhistorical unauthorized desires and openly admits to disregard each and every authority out there and openly admits to selecting teachers who will preach what they want to hear.
No official Catholic document I know of says such things.

Angainor:

God given right? No, not if it is by thier whim. But if there is cause? I think you know the answer to that. The document you are reading describes what cause a pastor can, in good conscience, be disobeyed.

Does the Bible state such things as this? Can I write my own document and state on what grounds I can disobey church leaders? What about the various Lutheran synods that are not in agreement?

Note one HUGE point about that document, Luther’s name was NOT on it.

It is an old dispute. I don’t know what could be gained by going around quoting it. We go about our business.

Did you know the document says this stuff? I have never heard a lutheran admit the papacy was a divine right, rather I have heard the exact opposite.

Umm… no.

For wherever the Church is, there is the authority [command] to administer the Gospel. Therefore it is necessary for the Church to retain the authority to call, elect, and ordain ministers. And this authority is a gift which in reality is given to the Church, which no human power can wrest from the Church…

…
…But since there are just reasons why we do not obey, it is right also to restore this jurisdiction to godly pastors [to whom, by Christ’s command, it belongs], and to see to it that it is legitimately exercised for the reformation of morals and the glory of God.

 

[jimmy]

jim1130:

This is from Saint Francis de Sales (1567-1622), Bishop and Doctor of the Church.

The Catholic Controversy: angelfire.com/ms/seanie/fds/fds_index.html

The Authority of the Church: angelfire.com/ms/seanie/fds/fds_church0.html

The Authority of the Pope: angelfire.com/ms/seanie/papacy/fds_pope0.html

The Protestant Violation of Holy Scripture: angelfire.com/ms/seanie/deuteros/francisdesales.html

Peace.

Since when has that book been online? I read that book and thought it was great.

 

[Angainor]

Catholic Dude:

Angainor:

		 				 Myself, I look to sound doctine. Do you look to sound doctrine? How do you know it is sound?

According to the passage: 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

That’s it? A doctrine is sound if it does not suit your own desires?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

[/indent]
That’s it? A doctrine is sound if it does not suit your own desires?

The lutheran document openly admits to writing those documents according to their own unhistorical unauthorized desires and openly admits to disregard each and every authority out there and openly admits to selecting teachers who will preach what they want to hear.

** No official Catholic document I know of says such things**.

 

[Angainor]

Catholic Dude:

Did you know the document says this stuff? I have never heard a lutheran admit the papacy was a divine right, rather I have heard the exact opposite.

It is just acknowledging history. Rome had the primacy since Emperor Phocas:

21] Also, when for a long time there had been contests concerning the primacy
between the bishops of Rome and Constantinople, the Emperor Phocas finally determined that
the primacy should be assigned to the bishop of Rome. But if the ancient Church had
acknowledged the primacy of the Roman Pontiff, this contention could not have occurred,
neither would there have been need of the decree of the emperor.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Angainor:

It is just acknowledging history. Rome had the primacy since Emperor Phocas:

21] Also, when for a long time there had been contests concerning the primacy
between the bishops of Rome and Constantinople, the Emperor Phocas finally determined that
the primacy should be assigned to the bishop of Rome. But if the ancient Church had
acknowledged the primacy of the Roman Pontiff, this contention could not have occurred,
neither would there have been need of the decree of the emperor.

And who’s interpretation of history is this?

What is it about “primacy by divine right” and the call to eliminate every single bishop that your having trouble with?

 

[Angainor]

Catholic Dude:

And who’s interpretation of history is this?

Isn’t it a historical fact that Emperor Phocas issued a decree in AD606 that the bishop of Rome was the Supreme Bishop?

Anyone out there? Is this not a historical fact?

What is it about “primacy by divine right” and the call to eliminate every single bishop that your having trouble with?

He no longer has primacy by divine right.

 

[Angainor]

Catholic Dude:

Angainor:

That’s it? A doctrine is sound if it does not suit your own desires?

                          The lutheran document **openly admits**

to writing those documents according to their own unhistorical unauthorized desires and openly admits to disregard each and every authority out there and openly admits to selecting teachers who will preach what they want to hear.

** No official Catholic document I know of says such things**.

I know why you don’t think Lutheran doctrines are sound but… 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
How do you know Catholic doctrines are sound?

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Angainor:

I know why you don’t think Lutheran doctrines are sound but… 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
How do you know Catholic doctrines are sound?

A few reasons why I consider them sound because:
1)they have historical foundation
2)they take a systematic approach to things
3)they are supported by historical Church writings
4)the openly claim to be the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that Jesus founded and have a continuous line of succession

 

[jim1130]

jimmy:

Since when has that book been online? I read that book and thought it was great.

This (Sean’s Faith Website) is just one great Web site with an absolute WEALTH of information.

angelfire.com/ms/seanie/index.html

It might behoove the Lutheran brethran to read The Catholic Controversy (angelfire.com/ms/seanie/fds/fds_index.html) by St. Fancis de Sales (1567-1622), Bishop and Doctor of the Church.

Peace.