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If by “negative light” you mean “communicated disagreement,” then I’m not so sure you’ll ever be able to get away from this sort of thing, and neither is your pointing to it something meaningful or useful. Presumably, if someone does not belong to a particular religion, there is at least in part a disagreement that has led to such a state. Why should a person stifle and suppress this disagreement? or pretend that they are capable of a sort of objectivity in which they see things as they really don’t, as if they were outside of their own minds, and in the mind of someone else?

Why, your even mentioning this is an example of someone viewing and communicating the methodology of certain religious scholars “in a most nuanced and veiled but negative light.”
I apologize if I offended you. I think it is ok to realize that even scholars are subject to the same basic sins that all people are, and that education is not the equivalent of Charity, honesty and saintliness.

Just on this forum alone I have witnessed a large number of misrepresentations of other faiths-- often written by official staff. It usually goes like this-- the favored position is presented in the most positive light while the unfavored position is presented in the most derisive light. This is a subtle but very real form of dishonesty and bearing false witness. I don’t think there is anything wrong with pointing this out. In fact it is important that this is pointed out. We all have to be very careful about our motives for things no matter how much knowledge we have gained in this life. The more deeply entrenched we are in a particular position or system the harder it becomes to see this bias and dishonesty.

A very good case in point of not so subtle bias is the home page article that came out recently called Yoga Bare.
 
If by “negative light” you mean “communicated disagreement,” then I’m not so sure you’ll ever be able to get away from this sort of thing, and neither is your pointing to it something meaningful or useful. Presumably, if someone does not belong to a particular religion, there is at least in part a disagreement that has led to such a state. Why should a person stifle and suppress this disagreement? or pretend that they are capable of a sort of objectivity in which they see things as they really don’t, as if they were outside of their own minds, and in the mind of someone else?

Why, your even mentioning this is an example of someone viewing and communicating the methodology of certain religious scholars “in a most nuanced and veiled but negative light.”
I apologize if I offended you. I think it is ok to realize that even scholars are subject to the same basic sins that all people are, and that education is not the equivalent of Charity, honesty and saintliness.

Just on this forum alone I have witnessed a large number of misrepresentations of other faiths-- often written by official staff. It usually goes like this-- the favored position is presented in the most positive light while the unfavored position is presented in the most derisive light. This is a subtle but very real form of dishonesty and bearing false witness. I don’t think there is anything wrong with pointing this out. In fact it is important that this is pointed out. We all have to be very careful about our motives for things no matter how much knowledge we have gained in this life. The more deeply entrenched we are in a particular position or system the harder it becomes to see this bias and dishonesty.

A very good case in point of not so subtle bias is the home page article that came out recently called Yoga Bare.
 
This is actually official Catholic teaching. His wording is a little fancier, which can be confusing. Watch. This is from the CCC. It is the official position of the Catholic Church.

819 “Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

**839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”, “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”**

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."


**“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation**.337

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”
Thank you deeply for this lengthy reply. It has helped immensely and I will be taking your and others advice of getting an official Catechism and comparing the language in it with MCBrien’s work. This is also a relief to me and especially my wife who is a practicing Catholic.

In the meantime if you are willing I would like to make a statement and then see your response. Here is the statement.

"All religions form a part of the mystical body of Christ in a way that we do not fully understand. They may even form an important and integral part of the mystery of salvation and even some of the theological errors contained therein can serve the purpose of illuminating our own faith. It could be that Christ has called some to be a part of other religions as unknowing ambassadors of the faith, forming them as it were in secret, bringing Christ there but in a hidden way that they themselves do not realize."

I make this statement because it is my experience of being led by Christ in an unknown way to eventually find him. It also is my experience that at least one of my teachers certainly worked for Christ but did not know it. He is dead now but in retrospect I have always felt that Jesus left him in the state he was not knowing the fullness of Christ just so that he could reach certain people who would eventually come to know Christ as saviour. To me this seems like one of the ways that Jesus overcomes “invincible ignorance.”
 
You may be right. I really can’t speak to any fringe groups as I have not been exposed to them. On the other hand it could be that some fringe groups are more in alignment with Christ than the official position of the Church and the main body of the Church has it wrong. Ultimately that would be my stance at least.
If you are viewing Catholicism from the outside starting with the presumption that the catholic church is nothing more than an organization constructed by humans nominally following (with rather many exceptions!) Christ and his teachings, then this is a perfectly reasonable position. Catholics find such a position untenable precisely because we already understand the church to be something established deliberately by Christ and which receives certain limited protections by Grace so as to perpetually be the source of reliable teaching regarding Christ and the gospel throughout the world.

It sounds like you’ve come across plenty of catholics who know their faith partially, but not at the scholarly level that you seem to want to ponder religion. This forum really isn’t an academic one (not even the staff). It’s apologetics for lay people who find their faith criticized or attacked. I’m not sure it’s fair of you to conclude that Catholicism is intellectually lacking since a forum of laymen doesn’t use phd level philosophy, proofs and reasoning processes.

The one example you mentioned is classic. You were saddened to see a poster falsely conflate ignorance with “invincible ignorance.” Such is life. Not every guy in the pew really needs to know the difference, even if it’s simple. The great thing about Catholicism is that it’s simple enough for my fifth grader to grasp the basics and yet profound enough that a lifetime of phd studies isn’t enough to master it. Back to your example. The muslim in Yemen who has never heard the gospel is ignorant of Christ. The muslim in Chicago whose neighbor is practically a saint and has explained it to him can still be “invincibly ignorant.” He may genuinely fail to make the connection between the unusual virtues of his neighbor and the action of Grace in his life through Christ. He may even sincerely be seeking God and responding to the promptings of Grace that he actually does perceive. But catholics don’t believe that all religions have similar value. We believe that all PEOPLE have similar value and that even those who have outwardly rejected Christ or those who have never heard of him have sometimes received him in their hearts without knowing what it is that’s happening. That’s very different than proclaiming all religions to be valid.

Unfortunately, I’m not remotely a scholar. Listen to JREducation on intellectual matters. He’s the smartest guy you’ll come across in these parts.
 
Read the book. Awful. He should not be a Catholic
There are many things in the book that are mistaken and others that are just poorly explained, but I would never say to anyone, especially a priest, that he should not be a Catholic. Whom am I to judge that?
 
There are many things in the book that are mistaken and others that are just poorly explained, but I would never say to anyone, especially a priest, that he should not be a Catholic. Whom am I to judge that?
I did not say he would have salvation.

But, if a person does not follow Catholic teaching, then I will call a spade a spade.

I do not believe in Cafeteria Catholics. If, for a example, a Catholic politician supports abortion, I will say the person should not be Catholic.

I do not care what a person claims to be. But if you claim to be something BE IT. Do not say you are Catholic, Jew, Muslim, whatever…and then promote or teach things contrary to the beliefs you claim to espouse.
 
=franklinstower;11198316]I have a question about a certain book that I read. It is called “Catholicism” it is by Richard P. Mcbrian. It is over 1000 pages and when I read twice, I took it to be an official catholic statement about the faith. I have recently found out under not to comfortable of conditions that this book is not definitive and could even be heretical.
Please enlighten me on the status of this book according to official Catholic teachings. If it is not an accurate assessment of the Catholic Churches teachings why would they allow such a book to exist without trying to do something about it.
All information on this subject will be very appreciated. Also I should say that I am very impressed with this book and deeply disappointed to find that it does not accurately state the faith of the Catholic Church. I have been under the assumption that it did for a number of years now.
Acctually he is on ROMES FORBIDDEN teacher list, and may even be excommunicated?

Not positive on that point?

Rome has NOT the ability to prevent heritics from publishing. :o
 
Acctually he is on ROMES FORBIDDEN teacher list, and may even be excommunicated?

Not positive on that point?

Rome has NOT the ability to prevent heritics from publishing. :o
I am sorry. I am not sure I understood your post. Did you say that the book and the writer are on the forbidden list for certain or not?
 
I am sorry. I am not sure I understood your post. Did you say that the book and the writer are on the forbidden list for certain or not?
I think the poster might be confusing Fr. McBrien with Fr. Charles Curran. Fr. Curran was far less careful about disseminating his own rebellious ideas. I’m not aware of Fr. McBrien ever being formally disciplined (other than the USCCB criticizing certain aspects of the book). I could be wrong, but I suggest you verify before taking a forum post’s word for it.
 
If you are viewing Catholicism from the outside starting with the presumption that the catholic church is nothing more than an organization constructed by humans nominally following (with rather many exceptions!) Christ and his teachings, then this is a perfectly reasonable position. Catholics find such a position untenable precisely because we already understand the church to be something established deliberately by Christ and which receives certain limited protections by Grace so as to perpetually be the source of reliable teaching regarding Christ and the gospel throughout the world.

It sounds like you’ve come across plenty of catholics who know their faith partially, but not at the scholarly level that you seem to want to ponder religion. This forum really isn’t an academic one (not even the staff). It’s apologetics for lay people who find their faith criticized or attacked. I’m not sure it’s fair of you to conclude that Catholicism is intellectually lacking since a forum of laymen doesn’t use phd level philosophy, proofs and reasoning processes.

The one example you mentioned is classic. You were saddened to see a poster falsely conflate ignorance with “invincible ignorance.” Such is life. Not every guy in the pew really needs to know the difference, even if it’s simple. The great thing about Catholicism is that it’s simple enough for my fifth grader to grasp the basics and yet profound enough that a lifetime of phd studies isn’t enough to master it. Back to your example. The muslim in Yemen who has never heard the gospel is ignorant of Christ. The muslim in Chicago whose neighbor is practically a saint and has explained it to him can still be “invincibly ignorant.” He may genuinely fail to make the connection between the unusual virtues of his neighbor and the action of Grace in his life through Christ. He may even sincerely be seeking God and responding to the promptings of Grace that he actually does perceive. But catholics don’t believe that all religions have similar value. We believe that all PEOPLE have similar value and that even those who have outwardly rejected Christ or those who have never heard of him have sometimes received him in their hearts without knowing what it is that’s happening. That’s very different than proclaiming all religions to be valid.

Unfortunately, I’m not remotely a scholar. Listen to JREducation on intellectual matters. He’s the smartest guy you’ll come across in these parts.
I just want to heartily agree with you on the many exceptions part. One of the great strengths of the Catholic faith in my opinion is that it can and does produce bona fide saints. I love this about your faith! There are also many less than saintly but still wonderfully spiritual people in the faith.

Here you must have misunderstood me, maybe I presented my point poorly. I do not believe that the Catholic Church is intellectually lacking in fact I would say the opposite. I think the point I made is that education- as powerful a tool as it is-- is not synonymous with spirituality, honesty, integrity or holiness and these are traits that ought to be held in the highest regard, especially by people who represent the faith. I do stand by that.

I was heartened to find out that it is the position of the Catholic Church that other religious people can and do go to heaven. I was saddened not because a catholic lay person did not know this part of the faith, but because for a moment-- based on many posters and some quotes from Catholic leaders-- I thought the Church did not know and teach that and that I was mistaken thinking they did! I am very happy to find out official Church teaching is what it is on this level.
 
=franklinstower;11199771]Also I wanted to mention to you “Jreducation” that I am only interested in comparative theology or else primarily interested in comparative theology so this kind of work does not bore me at all. I feel like it is very difficult to come to the truth of things in any case, but nearly impossible to do if we are not reading outside of our “system”.
I have to state however that although you present the scholarly approach very favorably I have not come to the same conclusion even though I am sure it sometimes operates this way. My extensive reading has led me to believe that it is almost impossible to get a scholar of say, Catholicism to treat the teachings of one protestant faith or another in any fair way at all, and vice versa. If I am reading a work from any one religion and it is describing the stance of another I can feel quite confident it is being presented in a most nuanced and veiled but negative light. I do not believe the reasons for this are entirely devoid of sin.
It seems that education does not heal sin and bias, and sometimes it seems that it only conceals these behind a wall of carefully constructed and deliberate logical arguments.
I’M NOT SURE BY WHAT YOU MEAN 'BY FAIR WAY?" I’LL ASSUME IT MEANS FAVORABLE; BUT SUCH IS A LOGICAL, THEOLOGICAL AND MORAL IMPOSSIBILITY.

GOD IS ONE

THEREFORE GOD [PERFECT AND GOOD] AND ONLY HAVE ONE SET OF TRUE FAITH BELIEFS [WHICH HE DID NOT WAIT MORE THAN 1,000+ YEARS TO EXPOSE THROUGH HENRY, LUTHER, CALVIN. SMITH OR ANYONE ONE ELSE. 🙂

AND ALWAYS ONLY ONE CHOSEN PEOPLE
CF. I DO GIVE TO YOU PETER ALONE THE ONLY ET OF KEYS TO MY [SINGULAR] KINGDOM; AND UPON YOU [PETER] “I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH” [SINGULAR]

SO THERE IS NO ROOM FOR DEBATE, NO ROMM FOR DISCUSSION AND LOTS OF ROOM OPEN FOR THE TRUTH [WHICH TOO MUST BE SINGULAR]👍

GOD BLESS YOU1
PJM
 
I think the poster might be confusing Fr. McBrien with Fr. Charles Curran. Fr. Curran was far less careful about disseminating his own rebellious ideas. I’m not aware of Fr. McBrien ever being formally disciplined (other than the USCCB criticizing certain aspects of the book). I could be wrong, but I suggest you verify before taking a forum post’s word for it.
Perhaps, but I do not think so. McBrien’s book was NOT Catholicism. It was a very watered-down version of doctrine. I felt I had to go to confession just for reading it…

McBrien’s two volume work, Catholicism, does not bear a Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur declarations from the Church that state the book is free of moral or doctrinal error. It was officially disapproved by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops on the grounds that many of its statements are “inaccurate or misleading,” that it exaggerates “plurality” within the Catholic theological tradition, and that it overemphasizes “change and development” in the history of Catholic doctrine, even though official dogmas of the Catholic Church are, according to the Magisterium, unchangeable truths.[4]

Scholarly reviews of Encyclopedia of Catholicism

A report on McBrien in Catholic Culture stated McBrien also served as the general editor of The Harper Collins Encyclopedia of Catholicism. According to the review of that book in First Things, “one has the impression that it was written for undergraduates who have little or no idea of what was once the common world and parlance of Catholic culture.”.[5] The review itself elaborates, “It is intended as a handy reference for students or journalists who need a quick and succinct explanation of some Catholic term or practice.” It concludes by stating that some “articles are models of precision and succinctness. The better ones include Revelation, Apostolic Succession, Conciliarism, Faith, Hell, Heresy, Homosexuality, Immortality, Inerrancy, Justification, Magisterium, Mary, Purgatory, and the Vicar of Christ. These have the merit of explaining clearly and concisely what the Catholic Church believes and why.”[6]

The DaVinci Code

McBrien served as a paid consultant for the controversial film The DaVinci Code, a movie that offended many Catholics because it portrayed a sexual relationship between Jesus Christ and Mary Magdalene.[8]

Eucharistic adoration

In September 2009, McBrien published an article in the National Catholic Reporter in which he criticized the centuries-old devotional practice of Eucharistic Adoration, calling it “a doctrinal, theological, and spiritual step backward, not forward.”[9] McBrien’s outspoken critique, shaped by an understanding of the Eucharist which centers upon the communal meal (and thus locates the proper place for the Eucharist within the setting of the Mass), was met with a sharp and critical reaction from some Catholics.

Criticism of Popes

Criticizing Pope John Paul II, McBrien stated that, “He’s left the Catholic Church with probably the worst crop of bishops it’s had in centuries” and that “Some of my liberal friends just say he’s a disaster and can see nothing good that he’s done.”[citation needed]

In a 1991 op-ed piece, McBrien discussed “the prolonged, slow-motion coup that has been under way in the church since the election of Pope John Paul II in October 1978.” (articles.baltimoresun.com/1991-12-10/news/1991344148_1_vatican-council-vatican-ii-catholic-church, retrieved December 10, 2012)

In regards to the papal conclave after Pope John Paul II’s death, McBrien said several times during the sede vacante that he did not expect Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) to be elected. In fact, he predicted that if the German were elected, “thousands upon thousands of Catholics in Europe and the United States would roll their eyes and retreat to the margins of the Church.”

Referring to the conclave itself, McBrien complained about “watching 115 men in liturgical dress. There isn’t a woman among them.”
 
TexKni, Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a McBrien fan. But there’s a pretty wide gap between writing theologically faulty ideas and teaching them in class versus doing to in manner bad enough and stubborn enough to result in disciplinary action that revoke’s one’s authority to teach in a catholic university. As I recall, Fr. Curran and Hans Kung reached that point. I don’t believe Fr. McBrien ever actually triggered such disciplinary action. Arguably he should have, but it isn’t my call or yours. You and I don’t speak for the church.
 
Thank you deeply for this lengthy reply. It has helped immensely and I will be taking your and others advice of getting an official Catechism and comparing the language in it with MCBrien’s work. This is also a relief to me and especially my wife who is a practicing Catholic.
If you are doing an in depth investigation of this topic, I recommend that you also look at the document Dominus Iesus vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html . There were enough misinterpretations of the teaching Brother quoted from the Catechism that the Vatican issued this document as a clarification. I think that it will help you to understand what the official position of the Church is.
 
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