Official teaching?

[henrikhank]

I am tired of all the discussion on what kind of celebration of the liturgy is correct. Different priests and Bishops seem to have different views on this. I guess different cardinals or even popes have or had different views on this. Then we have a big problem. How can we get the official view from the church on this? It’s always novus ordo vs tridentine or singing lutheran/catholic hymns (some hymns come from the lutheran tradition) vs gregorian chant or being against vs being for guitars at mass (seem to be more common in hispanic liturgies) or whatever. Well, you get the point. Who is right according the the official teaching by the church in this issue? Then we have the debate whether the pope realy should wash the feet like he does (including women) on maundy thursday which is said to go against liturgical law. I trust Benedict XVI way more than I trust Pope Francis when it comes to things liturgical but that guy had personal views and that doesn’t make them official.
Where is the official view on all of this? I just don’t want catholic people’s opinion on this. I wanna know the truth! I haven’t been to church coffe or mass for a while but if you attend a tridentine mass you will hear a lot about novus ordo vs tridentine when people socialize after mass.
My only opinuon here is that guitar played in church sound terrible (maybe Janne Schaffer could it better).

 

[1ke]

I am tired of all the discussion on what kind of celebration of the liturgy is correct. Different priests and Bishops seem to have different views on this. I guess different cardinals or even popes have or had different views on this.

What many people arguing about what is correct or not correct do not understand is the authority that individual bishops and bishops’ conferences have to establish norms in their territories. Therefore, it is more than simply an “opinion” but rather exercise of their authority as bishops to allow or disallow various things in the liturgy in their dioceses.

The GIRM (and numerous other documents) govern the liturgy. And then, the norms of the bishops’ conference, and then any norms in the particular Church of the diocese.

The so called “new order” mass is the ordinary form of the mass and the Tridentine mass is the extraordinary form. The extraordinary form is available widely in some places, and less in others. Both are valid masses. Each has its own rubrics.

I How can we get the official view from the church on this?

From the documents of the Church on the liturgy.

IIt’s always novus ordo vs tridentine or singing lutheran/catholic hymns (some hymns come from the lutheran tradition) vs gregorian chant or being against vs being for guitars at mass (seem to be more common in hispanic liturgies) or whatever. Well, you get the point. Who is right according the the official teaching by the church in this issue?

They aren’t issues. And no one is right or wrong on any of them. Because it is not ordinary vs extraordinary-- it is both/and not either/or. Hymns, chant, and instrumentation are within the purview of the bishop and even down to the pastor.

I Then we have the debate whether the pope realy should wash te feet like he does (including women) on maundy thursday which is said to go against liturgical law.

Those who make such arguments fail to understand the Pope is the supreme legislator.

Also, it’s a moot point since Pope Francis issued new instructions on the matter earlier this year.

I trust Benedict XVI way more than I trust Pope Francis when it comes to things liturgical but that guy had personal views and that doesn’t make them official.

That is a sad and misplaced sentiment. The Pope is the supreme legislator.

I
Where is the official view on all of this?

In the liturgical documents of the church and the particular laws of various countries.

You are looking for things that aren’t there. None of the items you listed is prohibited from mass. And the foot washing is a moot point because Pope Francis has revised the rubric.

I
I just don’t want catholic people’s opinion on this. I wanna know the truth! I haven’t been to church coffe or mass for a while but if you attend a tridentine mass you will hear a lot about novus ordo vs tridentine when people socialize after mass.
My only opinuon here is that guitar played in church sound terrible (maybe Janne Schaffer could it better).

Well, when people want to frame it as THIS vs THAT, all you will get is opinion, because the Church does not frame things that way.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I am tired of all the discussion on what kind of celebration of the liturgy is correct. Different priests and Bishops seem to have different views on this. I guess different cardinals or even popes have or had different views on this. Then we have a big problem. How can we get the official view from the church on this? It’s always novus ordo vs tridentine or singing lutheran/catholic hymns (some hymns come from the lutheran tradition) vs gregorian chant or being against vs being for guitars at mass (seem to be more common in hispanic liturgies) or whatever. Well, you get the point. Who is right according the the official teaching by the church in this issue? Then we have the debate whether the pope realy should wash the feet like he does (including women) on maundy thursday which is said to go against liturgical law. I trust Benedict XVI way more than I trust Pope Francis when it comes to things liturgical but that guy had personal views and that doesn’t make them official.
Where is the official view on all of this? I just don’t want catholic people’s opinion on this. I wanna know the truth! I haven’t been to church coffe or mass for a while but if you attend a tridentine mass you will hear a lot about novus ordo vs tridentine when people socialize after mass.
My only opinuon here is that guitar played in church sound terrible (maybe Janne Schaffer could it better).

You are not going to get what you want-sorry. The Church does not regulate every iota of worship. All of these things are disciplines and traditions, not dogmas and doctrines. There are rubrics to be followed when Mass is said, and guidelines, but there is a lot of freedom of choice. The Extraordinary Form and the Ordinary Forms of the Mass have been declared two forms of the same Mass by the Pope, and one is not superior to the other. That much has been declared by the Church. When people say one form is better than the other, they are giving an opinion, and going against this teaching. The foot washing is a discipline, and may be changed. There is no doctrine or dogma concerning it. It is not part of Sacred Tradition. Disciplines may be changed by any Pope. Also, the Bishop is the chief liturgist of the Diocese, and if he permits or disallows something, that is the Church speaking, unless he going against what the Vatican has decreed. Music is mostly the choice of the Pastor and the Parish. There are general guidelines, a document on this. Chant is preferred, but not necessary, and various instruments are permitted. You have to read the documents. But none of this is set in concrete. So you are not going to find an absolute for everything. There is a lot of freedom of choice. And you have to accept that.

And if people, at the coffee social are trashing the Ordinary Form of the Mass and saying it is not as good as the EF, or vice-versa, they are going against Church teaching. They may have a preference and an opinion, but if they denigrating either one, that is wrong.

Whether or not you like or agree with Pope Francis, he IS the Pope, he IS to be respected as such, and he was duly elected by the College of Cardinals under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and he IS Christ’s Vicar on earth. What he says may not be always infallible, but it should be carefully considered and prayed about and respected.

 

[pianistclare]

Two great responses. Print them out and pray over them.
They very succinctly put it in terms anyone can grasp.
And they’re right.
God bless.

 

[Neofight]

Where is the official view on all of this? I just don’t want catholic people’s opinion on this. QUOTE]

Sometimes we get so worried about organizational law, we seem to lose sight of God’s law.

The answer to your question (and all questions regarding what is the “official view” boil down to what Christ told the scholar who had a question about the 619 laws of the Jewish religious hierarchy (see Luke Chapter 10).

Jesus told him:

You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

If you love God with all your being, and your neighbor, everything else will work its way out…read today’s Gospel, and relax and rejoice in the Lord like Mary did…and worry about the details like Martha did, but later.

Peace and all good!

 

[Graceful_Lamb]

henrikhank;14047547:

Where is the official view on all of this? I just don’t want catholic people’s opinion on this. QUOTE]

Sometimes we get so worried about organizational law, we seem to lose sight of God’s law.

The answer to your question (and all questions regarding what is the “official view” boil down to what Christ told the scholar who had a question about the 619 laws of the Jewish religious hierarchy (see Luke Chapter 10).

Jesus told him:

You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

If you love God with all your being, and your neighbor, everything else will work its way out…read today’s Gospel, and relax and rejoice in the Lord like Mary did…and worry about the details like Martha did, but later.

Peace and all good!

This, and:

Canon Law:

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

Catechism of the Catholic Church:

ccc.usccb.org/flipbooks/catechism/index.html

Official Vatican Website:

w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/en.html

 

[otjm]

Well, we might a well stir it up a little more: While people refer to the “Roman Catholic Church”, that is not a correct title. It properly would be something like the "Roman rite of the Catholic Church.

There are 23 rites in the Eastern Church, all part of the Catholic Church, and in the West, the Roman rite is distinct from them, but they are all Catholic.

The Eastern rites have different ways of saying Mass (and different names for it - such as Divine Mysteries) but it is still the Mass. And should you go to one of them on a Sunday, it fulfills the obligation to attend Mass, and one does not need permission to attend.

And the Roman rite uses unleavened bread; but at least some of the Eastern rites use leavened bread - and once consecrated, it is the same Eucharist - body, blood, soul and divinity.

They have their own liturgical rules; and have some rules which the Roman rite does not have; and vice versa.

The Catholic Church is universal. However, universal does not mean uniform. As noted in the thread, the Roman rite has two main forms for saying the Mass; the Extraordinary Form and the Ordinary Form. By far, the Ordinary Form is the form which most Masses are said in, which does not make the Extraordinary Form any less legitimate or effective; it is just that the OF is what most people prefer - world wide.

The Church makes rules where it feels they are necessary; and there are a number of areas where there is no specific rule; their may be options; or there may be practices for which no rule has been made, but the practices are allowed to exist. In short, the Church does not micro manage.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

I am tired of all the discussion on what kind of celebration of the liturgy is correct. Different priests and Bishops seem to have different views on this. I guess different cardinals or even popes have or had different views on this. Then we have a big problem. How can we get the official view from the church on this? It’s always novus ordo vs tridentine or singing lutheran/catholic hymns (some hymns come from the lutheran tradition) vs gregorian chant or being against vs being for guitars at mass (seem to be more common in hispanic liturgies) or whatever. Well, you get the point. Who is right according the the official teaching by the church in this issue? Then we have the debate whether the pope realy should wash the feet like he does (including women) on maundy thursday which is said to go against liturgical law. I trust Benedict XVI way more than I trust Pope Francis when it comes to things liturgical but that guy had personal views and that doesn’t make them official.
Where is the official view on all of this? I just don’t want catholic people’s opinion on this. I wanna know the truth! I haven’t been to church coffe or mass for a while but if you attend a tridentine mass you will hear a lot about novus ordo vs tridentine when people socialize after mass.
My only opinuon here is that guitar played in church sound terrible (maybe Janne Schaffer could it better).

While I am pained by our local liturgies. And they may be the single biggest obstacle in my faith, let me ask you a question. What would it matter if there were an official teaching? There are lots of official teachings that are flaunted by Catholics every day.

I doubt I have been to a liturgically correct celebration that followed the teachings in over a year.

 

[pianistclare]

While I am pained by our local liturgies. And they may be the single biggest obstacle in my faith, let me ask you a question. What would it matter if there were an official teaching? There are lots of official teachings that are flaunted by Catholics every day.

I doubt I have been to a liturgically correct celebration that followed the teachings in over a year.

If the Mass really is a stumbling block to your faith eek then it’s time for a serious silent retreat with a great spiritual director.
I’m praying for you.
Hanging all your beliefs on whether or not one approves of any parish’s liturgy is really skating on the edge of falling away. I’d hate to see that happen to anyone.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

If the Mass really is a stumbling block to your faith eek then it’s time for a serious silent retreat with a great spiritual director.
I’m praying for you.
Hanging all your beliefs on whether or not one approves of any parish’s liturgy is really skating on the edge of falling away. I’d hate to see that happen to anyone.

It’s larger than that but thanks for your concern.

I know Clare, that you are blessed. There are places that are not as fortunate as yours. I know, I’ve lived in both areas.

 

[RPRPsych]

While I am pained by our local liturgies. And they may be the single biggest obstacle in my faith, let me ask you a question. What would it matter if there were an official teaching? There are lots of official teachings that are flaunted by Catholics every day.

I doubt I have been to a liturgically correct celebration that followed the teachings in over a year.

Perhaps that is part of the problem.

I know I used to play “liturgical police” with my brother when we were younger. We even had an array of funny names for the more egregious offenders. (I can still reduce my mother to stitches by imitating one of them). Today? I’m just grateful that I can get to a Mass every Sunday. If there are infelicities, I either let them slide or use them as an opportunity to practice patience. After all, one can’t be a teenager forever.

 

[pianistclare]

It’s larger than that but thanks for your concern.

I know Clare, that you are blessed. There are places that are not as fortunate as yours. I know, I’ve lived in both areas.

All I know is, that the prince of lies would love nothing more than to feed you full of “you know better than the Bishop, better than the pastor, better than everyone else”.
Don’t fall for it. Don’t let ANYONE lead you from the true Church The grass is not greener elsewhere.
I work in a parish where the music is …well…let’s say, it’s not great. I’m a professional musician as you know, and have been a Parish Music Director fro 16years as well.
The pain I feel in the pew is real, SO much so, that I now volunteer at the Spanish Mass, just so I can control what we do. In short, I worked within the system, but there are many parish events where I have to attend Mass with really abysmal music and odd liturgical practices. but Christ is still there in Eucharist, and really, that’s the bottom line. I won’t ever go where there is schism. It’s just not worth it. I try to think how Christ Himself suffered through the agony in the garden. It must have been unbearable and disheartening, But He didn’t walk away from what He had to do.
Be at peace.
the alternative is really bad. For you, and your precious family