Officially recognised Churches in Austria

[Esdra]

Hi

as I have been asked what it means to be “officially a Catholic, but in the heart a Baptist”.

I believe there is no such thing as an ‘official’ resignation from the Catholic Church. The Church would simply consider you a lapsed Catholic. Welcome home at any time.

I was referring to the State:
In Austria you secularly have to resign from the Roman Catholic Church (as it is recognized by the State; The Baptists i.e. are NOT recognized by the state!) in the county-government.
Because if you don’t, you are still “Roman Catholic” on the paper.

This is very different than in the US, you know? Austria and Germany are known for their bureaucracy, aren’t they?
Well, different countries, different customs, right?

And as this “secular resignation” doesn’t exist in the English speaking world, it’s hard to describe for me. I guess many others here in CAF don’t know if I am a Catholic now, or not!

1) I’d like to present to you the Churches that are officially recognised by the Austrian government:

* Old Catholic Church/Utrecht
* Armenian-Apostolic Church
* Lutheran and Reformed Evangelical Church (They are seen as one Church by the government!)
* United Methodist Church
* Greek-oriental (=Orthodox) Church

o Greek Orthodox Church
o Bulgarian Orthodox Church
o Rumanian-Greek Oriental Church
o Russian Orthodox Church
o Serbian-Greek-Oriental Church
* Islam
* Jews/Jewry
* Jehovah’s Wittnesses (Since May 7, 2009)
* Catholic Churches
o Roman Catholic
o Greek Catholic
o Armenian Catholic
* Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (=Mormons) (Since 1955)
* Coptic-Orthodox Church
* New Apostolic Church
* Buddism
* Syriaic-Orthodox Church

If you are a reocgnised Church in Austria, you have another tax-system (than a club which the other Churches are; except the ones below), are allowed to gather Church contribution (which is 1.1% of the gross monthly wage), and you can apply for supported Religious Instruction in Schools at the government.

2) These Churches have legal entity (legal personality) in Austria, but are not recognised as Churches in Austria:

* Bahá'i
* Alliance of Baptist Churches (US Baptists)
 * Alliance of Evangelical Churches (="European Baptists")*** ***
 * [The Christian Community](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Christian_Community) 
 * Elaia Church (couldn't find an English Article on them! And I am also not sure what kind of Church this is. I probably even translated them wrong.)
 * Assemblies of God
* Hinduism
* Seventh Day Adventists
* Mennonites
* Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee)

Until 2009 Jehovah’s Wittnesses also have been in the list above.
Every Church can propose a motion for becoming a recognized Church in Austria. The “Alliance of Evangelical Churches” have often done so so far, but each time the motion was defeated by the Austrian government.

So unless you haven’t officially resigned from the Church you are (born) in at the local county-government, you are officially still part of that Church! Therefore, I am “officially” a Catholic, but “inofficially” a European-Baptist.

References from help.gv.at (in German only!)

Hope that helps! **

 

[PRmerger]

Hi

as I have been asked what it means to be “officially a Catholic, but in the heart a Baptist”.

1) I’d like to present to you the Churches that are officially recognised by the Austrian government:

* Old Catholic Church/Utrecht
* Armenian-Apostolic Church
* Lutheran and Reformed Evangelical Church (They are seen as one Church by the government!)
* United Methodist Church
* Greek-oriental (=Orthodox) Church

o Greek Orthodox Church
o Bulgarian Orthodox Church
o Rumanian-Greek Oriental Church
o Russian Orthodox Church
o Serbian-Greek-Oriental Church
* Islam
* Jews/Jewry
* Jehovah’s Wittnesses (Since May 7, 2009)
* Catholic Churches
o Roman Catholic
o Greek Catholic
o Armenian Catholic
* Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (=Mormons) (Since 1955)
* Coptic-Orthodox Church
* New Apostolic Church
* Buddism
* Syriaic-Orthodox Church

If you are a reocgnised Church in Austria, you have another tax-system (than a club which the other Churches are; except the ones below), are allowed to gather Church contribution (which is 1.1% of the gross monthly wage), and you can apply for supported Religious Instruction in Schools at the government.

2) These Churches have legal entity (legal personality) in Austria, but are not recognised as Churches in Austria:

* Bahá'i
* Alliance of Baptist Churches (US Baptists)
 * Alliance of Evangelical Churches (="European Baptists")*** *****
 * [The Christian Community](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Christian_Community) 
 * Elaia Church (couldn't find an English Article on them! And I am also not sure what kind of Church this is. I probably even translated them wrong.)
 * Assemblies of God
* Hinduism
* Seventh Day Adventists
* Mennonites
* Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee)

Until 2009 Jehovah’s Wittnesses also have been in the list above.
Every Church can propose a motion for becoming a recognized Church in Austria. The “Alliance of Evangelical Churches” have often done so so far, but each time the motion was defeated by the Austrian government.

So unless you haven’t officially resigned from the Church you are (born) in at the local county-government, you are officially still part of that Church! Therefore, I am “officially” a Catholic, but “inofficially” a European-Baptist.

References from help.gv.at (in German only!)

Hope that helps!

Interesting, Esdra.

It’s like you’re in the family but have left to be with another family.

My husband’s brother is like that. He prefers to be with his wife’s family, rather than my husband, their sisters and mother.

I am not judging you or my BIL. Just making a comparison.

But, even if my BIL doesn’t participate in any of the family functions, he still is a member of the family!

 

[JHow]

…If you are a reocgnised Church in Austria, you have another tax-system (than a club which the other Churches are; except the ones below), are allowed to gather Church contribution (which is 1.1% of the gross monthly wage), and you can apply for supported Religious Instruction in Schools at the government…

Wait! Are you saying that 1.1% of your wages (I assume you have wages) are going to support the church at which you are officially registered (i.e., Roman Catholic)? Wouldn’t you want to correct your status with the state so that the Baptists get the funds? Or is it somehow optional?

Also what’s that about the religious instruction? You can sign up for instruction in Roman Catholicism at the state school?

Sorry for the amazement, but these are really foreign concepts to me. It should be a matter of conscience what church you support, and how much you give, and how often. It should be no business of the state.

Once in the army, I was given the job of collecting the religious affiliation of soldiers in our unit for the purpose of making “dog tags” (metal identity tags you wear on your neck). There was a form, each soldier filled it out, and essentially, whatever one put on the form, that’s what was put on the dog tag. The only limiting factor was the number of letters the dog tag machine would hold. As such “Roman Catholic” often ended up being “RC”. “CHRISTIAN” would fit, however. We also got “BUDDHIST”, “AGNOSTIC”, “NONE”, “BAPTIST”, and one guy who wanted “JEDI”. I asked this last guy if he was serious and he said, "No, put “AGNOSTIC”. But at the end of the day, the official army policy was: “Your religious affiliation is whatever you say it is on this form.”

 

[Esdra]

Wait! Are you saying that 1.1% of your wages (I assume you have wages) are going to support the church at which you are officially registered (i.e., Roman Catholic)? Wouldn’t you want to correct your status with the state so that the Baptists get the funds? Or is it somehow optional?

Yes, you have to pay 1.1% of your gross wage to your Church, if it is officially recoognised in Austria (see above!)
Hitler introduced that in Austria and Germany (in Germany the percentage is even higher!° - about 8- 9 %! depending where in gemany you live.) so that many people will leave the Church. 70 years ago he didn’t succeed. Nowadays, most people who leave the RCC (resign from it officially) give the percentage to the Church as the reason: “As I am not participating in Church life anyway, why should I pay?” (And I would say I can understand people saying so, especially in Germany!)
However, not all Churches charge their members for the govermental Church-fee. The Catholic Churches do, the Orthodox Churches and the two Evangelical Churches.
Baptists (both Baptist Churches) are first of all not recognised as a Church in Austria (see above) and secondly wouldn’t charge the people for the percentage, as giving to the Church is voluntarley there. (Most people give 10% of their gross wage! - voluntarely)

Also what’s that about the religious instruction? You can sign up for instruction in Roman Catholicism at the state school?

Yes, in former times you were oblidged to take R.I. in the meantime you can choose between R.I. and Ethics as a subject!
(starting In primary Schools there is Islamic R.I. (for the islamic migrants) and Catholic R.I.)
In the higher schools usually Roman Catholic, Evangelical Lutheran (or Reformed or both) R.I. and Ethics (for non-Lutherans, non-Catholics or non-Reformed).
Every person (also non-Christians, or with another denomination, are, however, invited to attend Roman Catholic R.I. [which is the standard R.I. in Austrian schools!)
These R.I. teachers a payed by the state. LDS and JWs could also ask for R.I. in public schools (there are only VERY few private schools, unlike in the UK or the US; most of them are run by monasteries!) - but so far, I’ve never heard they did. (Also the other officially recognised Churches in Austria could. I don’t know which else do…)

Sorry for the amazement, but these are really foreign concepts to me. It should be a matter of conscience what church you support, and how much you give, and how often. It should be no business of the state.

Different country, different customs! (see also above, concerning history of that!)

Once in the army, I was given the job of collecting the religious affiliation of soldiers in our unit for the purpose of making “dog tags” (metal identity tags you wear on your neck). There was a form, each soldier filled it out, and essentially, whatever one put on the form, that’s what was put on the dog tag. The only limiting factor was the number of letters the dog tag machine would hold. As such “Roman Catholic” often ended up being “RC”. “CHRISTIAN” would fit, however. We also got “BUDDHIST”, “AGNOSTIC”, “NONE”, “BAPTIST”, and one guy who wanted “JEDI”. I asked this last guy if he was serious and he said, "No, put “AGNOSTIC”. But at the end of the day, the official army policy was: “Your religious affiliation is whatever you say it is on this form.”

Funny, I see. In Austria you often have to fill in your Religious Affiliation, you know?

 

[Esdra]

Interesting, Esdra.

It’s like you’re in the family but have left to be with another family.

My husband’s brother is like that. He prefers to be with his wife’s family, rather than my husband, their sisters and mother.

I am not judging you or my BIL. Just making a comparison.

But, even if my BIL doesn’t participate in any of the family functions, he still is a member of the family!

Yes, you could say that.
If you want to leave a Church, you even don’t need to go to your parish priest. It’s enough to go to the council-government and officially resign from the Church. (Which I haven’t done so far, and thus I am still a Catholic! )
(However, you have to go to the Church-organisation who collects the percentage (set by the Austrian government) you have to pay for a Church. So that they know, they don’t need to charge you anymore.)

Another point: And since this money is a lucrative income for the Churches collecting it, this practice hasn’t been abondoned by the Churches after WW II.

 

[1ke]

Wait! Are you saying that 1.1% of your wages (I assume you have wages) are going to support the church at which you are officially registered (i.e., Roman Catholic)?

Yes.

Wouldn’t you want to correct your status with the state so that the Baptists get the funds?

The Baptist church is not recognized by the state, therefore the state would not collect tax revenues for them

Or is it somehow optional?

It’s complicated.

Also what’s that about the religious instruction? You can sign up for instruction in Roman Catholicism at the state school?

Yes.

Sorry for the amazement, but these are really foreign concepts to me. It should be a matter of conscience what church you support, and how much you give, and how often. It should be no business of the state.

Are you implying that the American way of doing things is the only way? Austria is not America. They have a different history, culture, and structure. Surely you can see past your Americanism to see that others may want to do things differently in their own country.

But at the end of the day, the official army policy was: “Your religious affiliation is whatever you say it is on this form.”

Yes, well, that is not the Austrian policy.

 

[Esdra]

Yes.

The Baptist church is not recognized by the state, therefore the state would not collect tax revenues for them

It’s complicated.

Yes.

Are you implying that the American way of doing things is the only way? Austria is not America. They have a different history, culture, and structure. Surely you can see past your Americanism to see that others may want to do things differently in their own country.

Yes, well, that is not the Austrian policy.

have you lived for a longer time in Austria or Germany, or why are you answering these questions?
Just curious!

 

[Esdra]

Yes, you have to pay 1.1% of your gross wage to your Church, if it is officially recoognised in Austria (see above!)
Hitler introduced that in Austria and Germany (in Germany the percentage is even higher!° - about 8- 9 %! depending where in gemany you live.) so that many people will leave the Church. 70 years ago he “succeed”.

EDIT: Found a mistake, sorry!

 

[JHow]

…Are you implying that the American way of doing things is the only way? Austria is not America. They have a different history, culture, and structure. **Surely you can see past your Americanism ** to see that others may want to do things differently in their own country…

On this point, which I see as freedom of conscience (see the First Amendment to U.S. Constitution), YES, I am prepared to say that what you call the “American way of doing things” is certainly a better approach. I’ll even go further and say that it is no business of any government anywhere to garnish wages, voluntary or otherwise, for the purpose of supporting religious institutions - and I say that primarily for the obvious reason that it has a tendency to comprise the moral effectiveness of those institutions. You can see this in the U.S. with the “tax-exempt” status of churches being used routinely to suppress political speech from the pulpit, particularly during elections, to use one of many examples.

 

[1ke]

have you lived for a longer time in Austria or Germany, or why are you answering these questions?
Just curious!

My sister is married to an Austrian and lives in Vienna. So, yes, I am very familiar with this even if not an Austrian myself.

Whether an Austrian thinks this is a good way, or the best way, or whatever, it’s not my place to say. But, I do think that we Americans show poorly when we insist that our way is the right, best, or only way simply because it’s American. I think that’s myopic.

 

[JHow]

…I do think that we Americans show poorly when we insist that our way is the right, best, or only way simply because it’s American. I think that’s myopic.

That’s great, because I didn’t do that. I don’t think that freedom of conscience is a specifically American idea.

 

[Esdra]

On this point, which I see as freedom of conscience (see the First Amendment to U.S. Constitution), YES, I am prepared to say that what you call the “American way of doing things” is certainly a better approach. I’ll even go further and say that it is no business of any government anywhere to garnish wages, voluntary or otherwise, for the purpose of supporting religious institutions - and I say that primarily for the obvious reason that it has a tendency to comprise the moral effectiveness of those institutions. You can see this in the U.S. with the “tax-exempt” status of churches being used routinely to suppress political speech from the pulpit, particularly during elections, to use one of many examples.

I think also another point plays a role in the above difference between Austria and the US:
In the US there are “no officially recognised Churches”, as all religions are “recognised”. (Freedom of Choice)
But since Austria always has been a Catholic Church (with over 80% of the inhabitants being Catholic!),

But that the government is very present in Economy and in everyday life of the Austrians has also its good things: Medical Inssurance is granted - in former times nearly 100% of the people had a job, as many very employed in govermental-run businesses (the Austrian railway company, i.e. has been a govermental-business until 10 years ago!) etc.

I mean, I don’t know how changing denominations works in the US. How does it? Do you go to your Catholic parish priest and tell him, all right, I am gone now for the Presbyterians (if you want to become Presbyterian) and then go the Presbyterian pastor and tell him, here I am, let me belong to your Church, or how does that work?

I really can’t imagine that…

 

[1ke]

I mean, I don’t know how changing denominations works in the US. How does it? Do you go to your Catholic parish priest and tell him, all right, I am gone now for the Presbyterians (if you want to become Presbyterian) and then go the Presbyterian pastor and tell him, here I am, let me belong to your Church, or how does that work?

I really can’t imagine that…

Keep in mind that one is **always **Catholic by virtue of their baptism, it isn’t possibly to “not” be Catholic no matter whether one practices their faith or not. You will be Cathoilc until the day you die, and beyond into eternity. It is an ontological fact.

Now, given that, what a Catholic can do is use a process to formally defect. This is a universal process (not just American) from canon law. (This is what must occur in Germany to be removed from the state church). The person must write a letter to their bishop stating their desire to formally defect and the bishop must accept the defection. If he does, then a notation is made in the sacramental records in the baptismal parish. The person would then have to go through the Bishop if they desired to return. From the Catholic standpoing, formal defection does not make one “not Catholic.” It merely makes a notation in their sacramental records. From the state’s standpoing (Germany, Austria, etc) it does. In the US, the state isn’t invovled at all.

Now, because in the US the state isn’t involved, there are very few Catholics who know about formal defection or even if they do there are very few who actually take the time to do it. In the US if a Catholic wanted to join a Presbyterian church, they would simply stop going to the Catholic Church and start going to the Presbyterian. They’d do whatever the Presbyterian church outlines in order to join. And vice versa.

The state is nowhere in the equation.

 

[PRmerger]

Now, because in the US the state isn’t involved, there are very few Catholics who know about formal defection or even if they do there are very few who actually take the time to do it. In the US if a Catholic wanted to join a Presbyterian church, they would simply stop going to the Catholic Church and start going to the Presbyterian. They’d do whatever the Presbyterian church outlines in order to join. And vice versa.

The state is nowhere in the equation.

I seem to remember reading that a Catholic in a US diocese can “formally” defect by writing a letter to his bishop. Then, he would not be bound by the Catholic requirements for marriage.

(This formal defection is helpful when marriage tribunals are evaluating whether a past “marriage” was sacramental or not.)

 

[Esdra]

Keep in mind that one is **always **Catholic by virtue of their baptism, it isn’t possibly to “not” be Catholic no matter whether one practices their faith or not. You will be Cathoilc until the day you die, and beyond into eternity. It is an ontological fact.

Now, given that, what a Catholic can do is use a process to formally defect. This is a universal process (not just American) from canon law. (This is what must occur in Germany to be removed from the state church). The person must write a letter to their bishop stating their desire to formally defect and the bishop must accept the defection. If he does, then a notation is made in the sacramental records in the baptismal parish. The person would then have to go through the Bishop if they desired to return. From the Catholic standpoing, formal defection does not make one “not Catholic.” It merely makes a notation in their sacramental records. From the state’s standpoing (Germany, Austria, etc) it does. In the US, the state isn’t invovled at all.

Now, because in the US the state isn’t involved, there are very few Catholics who know about formal defection or even if they do there are very few who actually take the time to do it. In the US if a Catholic wanted to join a Presbyterian church, they would simply stop going to the Catholic Church and start going to the Presbyterian. They’d do whatever the Presbyterian church outlines in order to join. And vice versa.

The state is nowhere in the equation.

Hi
thanks for this interesting insight!

So, if I were in the US now and I wanted to join the Baptists, I simply would only need to go the the Baptist pastor, get (re)baptised and maybe do an Alpha-course (sth like RCIA among European Baptists here; Don’t know if this term’s also used in English).

 

[Esdra]

I seem to remember reading that a Catholic in a US diocese can “formally” defect by writing a letter to his bishop. Then, he would not be bound by the Catholic requirements for marriage.

(This formal defection is helpful when marriage tribunals are evaluating whether a past “marriage” was sacramental or not.)

One question: What’s a “marriage tribunal”? I don’t know this term. (Yes, sometimes it’s a curse to be a non-native speaker in a Forum! )

So “defect” is then the English word I am looking for? Does this mean than “to officially resign” from the Church?

Concerning marriage: Nowadays hardly none cares about the Catholic requirements to marriage. At least this is what I got to know here in Austria.
Sex before marriage? No problem! Teenagers start at the age of 13 nowadays! (And if you don’t have the first time sex before 20 you are seen odd or old-fashioned or even unsocial!)
Divorce? No problem! The divorce-rate is higher than ever!
Remarriage being divorced? No problem!
And the CC in Austria doesn’t really care. So if a woman’d be divorced and then remarry - she would get the Eucharist anyway. (There are very few “traditional” priests left here who would strictly act to the Catholic law and doctrine. Most of them are really old. - the younger generation of priests are far more liberal! Too liberal, I am tempted to say!)
And remember: Nearly EVERYONE here in Austria is a baptised Catholic! Does that hinder them to “violate” Catholic law? No, not at all!
So in my opinion many Catholics are uprooted here. In most Catholics here I don’t see much difference to an Atheist.
And, frankly, I think in the US this isn’t any different, is it?

 

[PRmerger]

One question: What’s a “marriage tribunal”? I don’t know this term. (Yes, sometimes it’s a curse to be a non-native speaker in a Forum! )

It’s a tribunal in the Archdiocese that reviews those wishing to receive annulments.

So “defect” is then the English word I am looking for? Does this mean than “to officially resign” from the Church?

Yes.

[qute]Concerning marriage: Nowadays hardly none cares about the Catholic requirements to marriage. At least this is what I got to know here in Austria.
Sex before marriage? No problem! Teenagers start at the age of 13 nowadays! (And if you don’t have the first time sex before 20 you are seen odd or old-fashioned or even unsocial!)
Divorce? No problem! The divorce-rate is higher than ever!
Remarriage being divorced? No problem!

Yes. Just what the devil ordered, IMHO. :sad_yes: (This is a spin, Esdra, in an American aphorism: " just what the doctor ordered", in case you were unfamiliar with the saying.)

As Pope JPII said (paraphrasing), “As the marriage goes, so goes society; as society goes, so goes the nation; as the nations go, so goes the world”.

So if you were the Author of Darkness, the first think you would attack would be marriage, would it not?

And, frankly, I think in the US this isn’t any different, is it?

Ohmygosh! 'Tis quite different here. Quite! Thank goodness.

 

[Roy5]

I can’t accept the idea that Baptism as an infant makes one a Catholic regardless of the choice which the person may make later.

For example, one reads that as many as 30,000,000 US Catholics have fallen away from the church, some joining Protestant churches, some becoming unchurched. Now, does the Church still count those as Catholics? I have a relative who left Catholicism to become a Protestant. Does the Church still view her as a Catholic? It simply seems so unrealistic. I can understand it happening in a country with a state church, perhaps, but not in the USA.
As for Austria, I'm learning as I read. Thanks. Which leads to this question: Was Hitler, born in Austria, always a Catholic since he was baptized Catholic - despise his paganism, bigotry and crimes? How about Al Capone and a host of other Mafia-style criminals who openly defied Catholic ethics?

 

[PRmerger]

I can’t accept the idea that Baptism as an infant makes one a Catholic regardless of the choice which the person may make later.

It makes one a Christian, not necessarily a Catholic.

Was Hitler, born in Austria, always a Catholic since he was baptized Catholic - despise his paganism, bigotry and crimes? How about Al Capone and a host of other Mafia-style criminals who openly defied Catholic ethics?

At baptism, their soul was changed. Ontologically. They were marked with the seal of Christ. That can never be erased. Never. But if they choose to not cooperate with the grace they received, then, God says, “thy will be done.”

Is there evidence that these men that you cite were confirmed in the Catholic Church? Just wondering.

 

[1ke]

I seem to remember reading that a Catholic in a US diocese can “formally” defect by writing a letter to his bishop. Then, he would not be bound by the Catholic requirements for marriage.

No, this is no longer the case as of December 2009. Pope Benedict XVI issued an update to canon law.