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SeriousQuestion
Guest
It doesn’t seem like they interact in the first place and its mostly an honorary role.
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1ke
Guest
Well you can really do that for for your child. You can help her deal with it constructively. Time will heal the hurt.
Well you can’t remove the fact that she was the sponsor. She doesn’t have to have a “role” in your daudhter’s life. I find it odd you “feel the need to remove her, just her role”. I don’t even know what that means.
Frankly no.
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Lifeisbeautiful3
Guest
Is there ever a scenario where canon law can/should be changed?
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on_the_hill
Guest
Godparents have different roles in different cultures, I think. In some, they’re more significant, in others hardly at all.
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Axsenex
Guest
It’s ceremonial name that’s all… no one is perfect & if she messed up then forgive her… and… move on!
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QwertyGirl
Guest
We can’t “make” someone be something they aren’t or something they don’t want to be. This is a lesson most of us have to learn sometime in life, and it can be a painful and disappointing lesson. The flip side of that lesson is remembering that we do have control over how we, ourselves, behave and what we “make” ourselves to be.
I say this compassionately, but it sounds to me like you are putting far too much importance on this disappointing relationship. Further, it sounds like you are teaching (by example) your daughter to do the same. In my experience, that isn’t a good way to go through life. I am sure there are other people in your daughter’s life who can be excellent mentors to her, starting with yourself. It may be she doesn’t have a person who is “the complete package”. I would even argue that “the complete package” doesn’t really exist.
I would suggest considering that you spend your efforts encouraging your daughter to follow the good examples set by a variety of people. Afterall, that is sort of what life is about, right? Enjoying all different kinds of people and the image of God you can see in them.
I actually know few people who have deep, meaningful relationships with their godparents, unless said godparent is part of their biological family. It doesn’t have to be a huge disappointment if you do your best to look at that glass as half full. I don’t believe there has to be an official “removal”, or understnd why one would want to seek that. I would just move on from it, and encourage my child to do the same.
I say this compassionately, but it sounds to me like you are putting far too much importance on this disappointing relationship. Further, it sounds like you are teaching (by example) your daughter to do the same. In my experience, that isn’t a good way to go through life. I am sure there are other people in your daughter’s life who can be excellent mentors to her, starting with yourself. It may be she doesn’t have a person who is “the complete package”. I would even argue that “the complete package” doesn’t really exist.
I would suggest considering that you spend your efforts encouraging your daughter to follow the good examples set by a variety of people. Afterall, that is sort of what life is about, right? Enjoying all different kinds of people and the image of God you can see in them.
I actually know few people who have deep, meaningful relationships with their godparents, unless said godparent is part of their biological family. It doesn’t have to be a huge disappointment if you do your best to look at that glass as half full. I don’t believe there has to be an official “removal”, or understnd why one would want to seek that. I would just move on from it, and encourage my child to do the same.
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adgloriam
Guest
You don’t know this for sure. The other person can have an enormous multitude of problems in her life (or be completely unable to cope). Over the years I’ve asked and heard hundreds of people about their relationship with their Godparents and the answers included all walks of life we care to imagine. It’s tough, more times than not it’s a story of disappointment. Your daughter shouldn’t hear this but as an example to you: the spouse that is required to forgive an adultery…
Again, lessons are to be drawn. That humans are fallible and only God doesn’t fail us. To rely on anyone is half a step towards disappointment. Jeremiah 17:5-7.
The same thing you are telling of your daughter has happened to friends of mine who were abandoned by one parent or who’s other parent simply shunned/distanced the former. It’s like an open wound that isn’t easy for either party to tend to, even much latter when they are adults. Building trust and a relationship is a process that takes time, and that takes forgiveness, it takes our will and it takes charity…The “sense of entitlement” even in the face of complete failure, is the surest way to loose a relationship and hold nothing but disappointment and resentment.
If indeed the lady is a practicing catholic, she should be able to take your call (not your daughters!!) And the first thing you should ask yourself is if you can make that call without a “sense of entitlement”? If you can forgive and start anew? If you can understand and forgive more than you resent, exact and levy? THAT IS THE PARABLE OF THE UNFORGIVING SERVANT Matthew 18:21-35 in the context of a baptismal relationship.
Tell her that it’s high time you get together and have a good time laying the past behind you. Any justification the Godmother can give is her entire life in these years gone bye. And think of those who’s Godparents aren’t catholic to begin with, in which one or both parties fell from faith completely. Perhaps you do have something to be thankful for.
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adgloriam
Guest
That is a terrible thing to undergo. I would forgive the Godmother faster than the school principle. Because you see, had that experience not been so terrible your daughter would probably not feel so disappointed at her godmother because she wouldn’t have felt such an enormous need for a friend to counterbalance the injustice she suffered at school. Still, both cases are unrelated, for each of the two are responsible for their own actions. The main issue, is that your daughter doesn’t desist on the faith due to disillusion. That would be the extreme and complete loss. And a person having suffered bullying will be at greater odds and fragility further down the road - which prompts continued and increased attention, because problems and injustice will persist. You perhaps should have her switch school earlier, with all the drawbacks that might have entailed…A child once bullied becomes more vulnerable to peer pressure, smoking drinking and vices -seeking acceptance through those fallacies-, and that well into early adulthood and well into college.
God bless.
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1ke
Guest
Well, no, not really. A properly formed sponsor understands their role:
Can. 872 Insofar as possible, a person to be baptized is to be given a sponsor who assists an adult in Christian initiation or together with the parents presents an infant for baptism. A sponsor also helps the baptized person to lead a Christian life in keeping with baptism and to fulfill faithfully the obligations inherent in it.
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LilyM
Guest
It’s a strange idea.
The godparent’s first and foremost (and frequently, at least in western countries, only) role is as witness to the baptism. That’s a historical fact.
If a godparent turns out to be an awful person, that doesn’t change the fact that they were there and a witness.
There are important reasons why her role still needs to be acknowledged, at least officially.
Let’s say your daughter wants to get married in church - she’ll need to produce her baptism certificate. Let’s say, and it’s not unheard of, the parish record is lost or destroyed. Let’s also say, and again it happens, that you, the child’s father and the priest are all either passed away, or uncontactable, or don’t remember when or where the baptism happened. Then the evidence of the godparent can be crucial in establishing that the baptism took place.
The godparent’s first and foremost (and frequently, at least in western countries, only) role is as witness to the baptism. That’s a historical fact.
If a godparent turns out to be an awful person, that doesn’t change the fact that they were there and a witness.
There are important reasons why her role still needs to be acknowledged, at least officially.
Let’s say your daughter wants to get married in church - she’ll need to produce her baptism certificate. Let’s say, and it’s not unheard of, the parish record is lost or destroyed. Let’s also say, and again it happens, that you, the child’s father and the priest are all either passed away, or uncontactable, or don’t remember when or where the baptism happened. Then the evidence of the godparent can be crucial in establishing that the baptism took place.
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Diaconia
Guest
A sponsor cannot be removed, period. They are a witness to an historic act. (“sponsor” is the canonical term for a godfather or godmother)
You cannot remove a baptismal sponsor, you cannot remove a confirmation sponsor, you cannot remove the witnesses to a marriage. They are recorded witnesses to acts that took place.
You can, of course, just pick another person to provide the spiritual benefits of being a “godfather” or “godmother,” but the Church can’t change the records to reflect that.
Sometimes a former Catholic who has become a Jehovah’s Witness will call the parish and ask that their baptismal record be destroyed and nullified. That, of course, cannot happen either. What is written in the sacramental record of a person stays written, no matter what.
You cannot remove a baptismal sponsor, you cannot remove a confirmation sponsor, you cannot remove the witnesses to a marriage. They are recorded witnesses to acts that took place.
You can, of course, just pick another person to provide the spiritual benefits of being a “godfather” or “godmother,” but the Church can’t change the records to reflect that.
Sometimes a former Catholic who has become a Jehovah’s Witness will call the parish and ask that their baptismal record be destroyed and nullified. That, of course, cannot happen either. What is written in the sacramental record of a person stays written, no matter what.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Seems some people have cultural ideas of “godparent”, likely because they use a term that is vague!
This person is either a Baptismal Sponsor or a Confirmation Sponsor. When chosen to be the Sponsor, they are to be a Catholic in good standing “able to receive the Sacraments” is the basic rule of thumb. They would be striving to give a good example to their godchild. For me, I want to also be the person who will answer questions my godchild may have about the Faith. I would never try to lead one astray!
We sponsors don’t have to swear to lead impeccable lives. Like all of us, we will make mistakes and likely will sometimes sin. Some may even leave the practice of the faith. This is sad, but, it does not mean they were not the Sponsor for that Sacramental event.
The cultural ideal of godparent, someone who showers the godchild with gifts, buys the First Communion finery, pays for parts of the wedding or quince, takes over parenting should the child be orphaned, these are all cultural things.
If people could replace the recorded sponsor on a whim because of sin, insult, even crime, parishes would have to hire a full time person to simply handle that record keeping because there is never a perfect sponsor.
This person is either a Baptismal Sponsor or a Confirmation Sponsor. When chosen to be the Sponsor, they are to be a Catholic in good standing “able to receive the Sacraments” is the basic rule of thumb. They would be striving to give a good example to their godchild. For me, I want to also be the person who will answer questions my godchild may have about the Faith. I would never try to lead one astray!
We sponsors don’t have to swear to lead impeccable lives. Like all of us, we will make mistakes and likely will sometimes sin. Some may even leave the practice of the faith. This is sad, but, it does not mean they were not the Sponsor for that Sacramental event.
The cultural ideal of godparent, someone who showers the godchild with gifts, buys the First Communion finery, pays for parts of the wedding or quince, takes over parenting should the child be orphaned, these are all cultural things.
If people could replace the recorded sponsor on a whim because of sin, insult, even crime, parishes would have to hire a full time person to simply handle that record keeping because there is never a perfect sponsor.
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Lifeisbeautiful3
Guest
In the case of a wedding, for example, an annulment means that, retroactively, the bride and groom weren’t bride and groom since, indeed, the was no wedding (i.e. the event did not take place). Should there be a similar process for a Godparent?
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TheLittleLady
Guest
The decree of nullity means that while a wedding took place, a valid marriage did not result from that wedding. The wedding will always exist in the Sacramental Register of both the parish where the wedding took place AND the registers or the parish where the man and woman were each baptized. The witnesses at that wedding are not blotted out of the register.
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Lifeisbeautiful3
Guest
And after a decree of nullity is granted, she will not be referenced as a wife because she no longer is and, in fact, never was a wife. Should a similar process exist for a Godparent?
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TheLittleLady
Guest
The decree of nullity does not change that there was a legal marriage that ended. They are referred to as “My ex wife” or something similar. The decree of nullity does not impact the legal marriage that was.
In the parish registers, the decree of nullity is noted but the names are still recorded. They still had a wedding, they still attempted marriage.
In the parish registers, the decree of nullity is noted but the names are still recorded. They still had a wedding, they still attempted marriage.
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Deditus_Domina
Guest
I
A big part of growing up is learning to rejoice in others good without being envious or hurt by it.
My dad abandoned me. That is a fact. A hurtful one. Striking him from my birth certificate won’t change the fact he was there at my conception or erase the hurt of him wanting nothing to do with me. I couldn’t very well go around being hurt by the existence of in tact happy families.
Sometimes we just have to come to grips with the reality that there are people who should be in our lives are not. Other times we have to cope with the fact they are not the people they should be. And yes sometimes we have to look at other people doing everything right and people who have everything we don’t and be happy for them.
I understand your desire to comfort your daughter but the fact she had a neglectful Godmother is never going away. It’s not just because of church rules, we humans are great at holding on to hurts.
A big part of growing up is learning to rejoice in others good without being envious or hurt by it.
My dad abandoned me. That is a fact. A hurtful one. Striking him from my birth certificate won’t change the fact he was there at my conception or erase the hurt of him wanting nothing to do with me. I couldn’t very well go around being hurt by the existence of in tact happy families.
Sometimes we just have to come to grips with the reality that there are people who should be in our lives are not. Other times we have to cope with the fact they are not the people they should be. And yes sometimes we have to look at other people doing everything right and people who have everything we don’t and be happy for them.
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kmalone
Guest
Thank you, adgloriam. Yes, you are so right about the bullying. It wasn’t done by peers - it was done by the Principal himself - and NO ONE at the Catholic school, the Archdiocese, the BVM who run the school stood up for her. It was a huge donor whose child was bullied by this man after our daughter who finally got him removed.
Our daughter was very mature and able to discern between her faith and the Principal, but when every one else (including big donors to the school whom we directly asked for help) looked away from the abusive Principal - at her expense, that is what started her down the road to thinking Catholics aren’t who they say they are. She even watched Spotlight to strengthen her view of how children can be hurt while adults look away.
We removed her from the school within 3 months of the bullying - tried to work it out and then finally her doctors asked us to get her away from him because it was impacting her health.
The godmother issue is on top of the Principal, BVM, Archdiocese, “friends,” and now just solidifying her doubts. She wants faith, but I don’t know that she can ever return to Catholicism - even Christianity. She’s been studying Buddhism. Have to wonder how many other kids that man hurt and where they are in their individual faith journeys. It was interesting because this was happening right when the Pope was in Chicago (where we are) and on TV saying something like ‘it is not just what you do, but what you don’t do that makes you culpable.’ That’s not a quote, but the gist of it. Thanks for your thoughts, you are perfectly on target. The whole thing breaks my heart.
Our daughter was very mature and able to discern between her faith and the Principal, but when every one else (including big donors to the school whom we directly asked for help) looked away from the abusive Principal - at her expense, that is what started her down the road to thinking Catholics aren’t who they say they are. She even watched Spotlight to strengthen her view of how children can be hurt while adults look away.
We removed her from the school within 3 months of the bullying - tried to work it out and then finally her doctors asked us to get her away from him because it was impacting her health.
The godmother issue is on top of the Principal, BVM, Archdiocese, “friends,” and now just solidifying her doubts. She wants faith, but I don’t know that she can ever return to Catholicism - even Christianity. She’s been studying Buddhism. Have to wonder how many other kids that man hurt and where they are in their individual faith journeys. It was interesting because this was happening right when the Pope was in Chicago (where we are) and on TV saying something like ‘it is not just what you do, but what you don’t do that makes you culpable.’ That’s not a quote, but the gist of it. Thanks for your thoughts, you are perfectly on target. The whole thing breaks my heart.
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kmalone
Guest
Thanks, Augustinian. Appreciate you taking the time to reply. Yeah, I got that this isn’t going to happen. That’s what I wanted to know and I do appreciate the definitive answer.
With regard to other mentors, it’s not about finding someone else. It’s the pain caused by seeing her in overlapping social circles and her total lack of interest in our daughter’s life (which includes some substantial health issues that she could at least ask about). My daughter would like her not to be her “godmother.” I wanted to oblige her - she’s been so hurt, while suffering chronic illness. Just a mom & dad wanting to remove emotional pain if we could from a very young, very physically painful life. Thanks again.
With regard to other mentors, it’s not about finding someone else. It’s the pain caused by seeing her in overlapping social circles and her total lack of interest in our daughter’s life (which includes some substantial health issues that she could at least ask about). My daughter would like her not to be her “godmother.” I wanted to oblige her - she’s been so hurt, while suffering chronic illness. Just a mom & dad wanting to remove emotional pain if we could from a very young, very physically painful life. Thanks again.
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kmalone
Guest
Thanks, TheLittleLady.
I understand your situation. Our daughter chose this woman based on geography and connection with our family - she had choices that were far away who in hindsight, may have been better. If her godmother is praying for her, but ignoring her (in person, not what you speak of), that’s just strange.
When the school was abusive over her doctors’ requests for her to have cognitive rest - ignoring them and threatening this really good kid with F’s or expulsion if she didn’t ignore her doctors, we went to some of our best ‘friends’ (and big donors) who knew our daughter and knew what a good girl she was. They agreed that there was severe injustice going on to this straight A, Christian student who spent tons of time (amazing efforts) working with a women and children’s shelter and creating amazing opportunities for the children there and for Christian service for her peers weekly (often with these very friends whom we were asking to help!), a multiple varsity athlete until her tbi, when she couldn’t ride in a car any longer due to her health - and these “friends” and “Catholics” said they’d “pray for her” while not ever standing up for her. The “look away and pray,” practice just sickens me. You situation is not the same - it’s nice that you care about your godchildren and pray for them. This isn’t the same. It’s just sad.
I understand your situation. Our daughter chose this woman based on geography and connection with our family - she had choices that were far away who in hindsight, may have been better. If her godmother is praying for her, but ignoring her (in person, not what you speak of), that’s just strange.
When the school was abusive over her doctors’ requests for her to have cognitive rest - ignoring them and threatening this really good kid with F’s or expulsion if she didn’t ignore her doctors, we went to some of our best ‘friends’ (and big donors) who knew our daughter and knew what a good girl she was. They agreed that there was severe injustice going on to this straight A, Christian student who spent tons of time (amazing efforts) working with a women and children’s shelter and creating amazing opportunities for the children there and for Christian service for her peers weekly (often with these very friends whom we were asking to help!), a multiple varsity athlete until her tbi, when she couldn’t ride in a car any longer due to her health - and these “friends” and “Catholics” said they’d “pray for her” while not ever standing up for her. The “look away and pray,” practice just sickens me. You situation is not the same - it’s nice that you care about your godchildren and pray for them. This isn’t the same. It’s just sad.
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