B
Berean2
Guest
The “Protestant/Proselytizing” thread is already somewhat derailed, so I didn’t want to throw it off even more, but I do think that some statements there need to be addressed:
To boot, Paul says in Colossians 2,* “If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.”* [alternate reading: *are of no value, serving only to indulge the flesh]
As for fasting or abstaining from meat, again, these are volitional acts, not ones that can be forced on the individual believer. *“One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.” *(Romans 14) It does not matter that the specific case here is talking about permanent abstention, the point is that this passage illustrates also that abstention is a matter of individual, personal conscience, not something that can be dictated from the outside.
As for the analogy with the president, first of all, there are strict term limits, as well as the checks and balances of the other 2 branches, and further, if that gentleman gets really out of line, he can be impeached, not to mention the fact that the president is not THE ostensible one and only, ultimate representative of Christ on earth. So, the analogy fails.
(all emphases mine)
“Flesh” is not simply the body: it is rather the fallen/base nature of man. Look @ the works of the flesh listed in Galatians 5, and see how few of them have to do with the body, and how many have to do with the mind/heart: * “sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies…” *
To boot, Paul says in Colossians 2,* “If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.”* [alternate reading: *are of no value, serving only to indulge the flesh]
As for fasting or abstaining from meat, again, these are volitional acts, not ones that can be forced on the individual believer. *“One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him.” *(Romans 14) It does not matter that the specific case here is talking about permanent abstention, the point is that this passage illustrates also that abstention is a matter of individual, personal conscience, not something that can be dictated from the outside.
*“An overseer, as God’s steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined.” *(Titus 1) *“An overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not a drunkard, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own household well, with all dignity keeping his children submissive, for if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church?” *(1 Tim. 3) How is a man of the cloth “cooperating with grace” or “above reproach” when he…oh, I don’t know, has mistresses & gluttonous orgies? Sexually violates minors?
As for the analogy with the president, first of all, there are strict term limits, as well as the checks and balances of the other 2 branches, and further, if that gentleman gets really out of line, he can be impeached, not to mention the fact that the president is not THE ostensible one and only, ultimate representative of Christ on earth. So, the analogy fails.
(all emphases mine)