Oh oh, my friend got me with this one! Acts 15:11

[RomanRyan1088]

Well let me read to yall this outta the bible,

1. On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the lord Jesus Christ, in the same way as they.

Well, my friend said that this justifies Faith alone. I looked at the footnotes in the bible and it says, In the support of paul, peter formulates the fundamental meaning of Gospel: that we are all invited to be saved through the faith of christ"

Does this passage justify faith alone?

 

[Hananiah]

Not a chance. Salvation is by grace alone in Catholic soteriology as well as the Protestant variety. The differences have to do with such issues as what grace is, what it does, what channels it works through, etc.

Here’s an essay I wrote recently on the issue.
personal.psu.edu/users/b/m/bmd175/soteriology.htm

 

[Zski01]

RomanRyan1088:

Well let me read to yall this outta the bible,

1. On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the lord Jesus Christ, in the same way as they.

Well, my friend said that this justifies Faith alone. I looked at the footnotes in the bible and it says, In the support of paul, peter formulates the fundamental meaning of Gospel: that we are all invited to be saved through the faith of christ"

Does this passage justify faith alone?

This passage justifies justification by grace alone (sola gratia), which both Catholic and Protestant Christianity agree upon. No one earns their way into heaven; it is all done by God’s grace (unmerited friendship) alone. The question of justification is the manner in which we enter into such friendship.

When it somes to justification by “faith,” it’s a little more in-depth than a single verse or a single argument. It all boils down to how you view faith, hope, and love and if these three theological virtues are all one (in the Protestant version of “faith”) or not (in ours). In the end, we all say the same thing…you have to believe in Christ, hope in His redemptive promises to those who follow him, and love God and others as “fruit of your repentance.”

 

[GodKid]

hmmm…

new here… but a few quick questions:

1 - @ Zski01: Are you saying that faith, hope and love are one, or are you saying Protestants beleive faith, hope and love are one? If it is the former… please reply with your scripture references. Thanks.

2 - @ Hananiah: I’ll be honest… I’m writing this after reading only the first and last 2 paragraphs of your essay and I can tell yah… you seem to write well… but your scripture references are a little off (in my view)… your BIGGEST mistake being your equation of “knowing the [T/t]ruth” and coming into salvation. It is easily refuted as it is NECESSARY to know the [T/t]ruth BEFORE one can be saved… thus they are two separate ideas… not one as you would imply… BUT I’ll reserve any further comment until I’ve read the rest of your postulate. Oh… a question to you. If the fastest man in the world enters a race with the slowest man if the world:
(a) would you say the fastest man is assured victory?
(b) should you say that the man HAD to run in order to win? and therefore (c) could you say that UNLESS the man run the race he cannot win?.. but he is assured the victory if he does?

3 - @ RomanRyan: Here’s a question for you… and I warn you… it may seem strange… but I have a point. Is it still salvation if it is offered and not recieved?

 

[my_third_alias]

The Catholic church believes its through faith and works. Well let me use an example: lets say that if I believed in faith alone to make it to heaven, then would there be a need to follow the comandments or even what Jesus said? If its faith alone wouldn’t that mean the rest of the things that God wants us to follow wouldn’t count. Theres other things that are questionable too but I have to believe in the churches teachings because its in the bible. Let me give you a referance to look at in the bible too, here:Romans Chapter2 verses6-8 and Romans chapter9 verses30-33. I hope this can help you a little but if im able to find more referances ill give them to you but give me some time. Ill come back to this thread to see how things went. When you present this to your friend dont think of things as a debate but more like helping the person out to understand the churches teachings. I hope this helped and intensifyed your faith in some way. I also hope to hear from you again in this thread or another. God bless you.

 

[Zski01]

GodKid:

hmmm…

1 - @ Zski01: Are you saying that faith, hope and love are one, or are you saying Protestants beleive faith, hope and love are one? If it is the former… please reply with your scripture references. Thanks.

I see where your question is from. I should have been more specific in speaking of a Protestant definition of faith. I’m not sure what all Protestants believe because there is no single Protestant theology, but when you ask some to define it (in my experiences), their definition of Faith often comes close to such a definition (encompassing love, hope, etc) in defining a “saving faith.” I’m not trying to trample upon their theology, but to show how semantics are crucial in how you define justification. The historical problem is in the past that Catholics have defined faith alone as “intellecual assent.” This is a huge problem with “faith alone” because no one believes in salvation by “intellecual assent” alone (merely acknowledging in Jesus as the Christ - In that case the demons who acknowledged Jesus as the Christ are also saved).

I don’t believe faith, hope and love are one because Paul clearly lays them out as separate theological virtues. The Catholic Church defines a formed faith as one which is accompanied by hope and love (see previous post). So if you say we’re saved by formed faith, that is correct. If you say we’re saved by unformed faith (intellecual assent), such a definition is not correct (“for even the demons believe and tremble”)

It’s all dependent upon how you define faith in your theology that determines how you define Justification. That boils down to syntax and which form of faith you are talking about in the Bible (James 2:24 vs. Gal 5:6). One is an unformed faith, while one is a formed faith.

Does that help?

 

[Zski01]

GodKid:

hmmm…

3 - @ RomanRyan: Here’s a question for you… and I warn you… it may seem strange… but I have a point. Is it still salvation if it is offered and not recieved?

How do you define salvation being “offered?” Are you talking about Augustinian “predestination” (which Catholics affirm), irresistable grace (a Calvinist point which depends upon how you define this grace – we call it sanctifying grace), or the fact that the Bible claims God desires all men to be saved (1 Tim. 2:3)?

 

[Zski01]

GodKid:

2 - @ Hananiah: I’ll be honest… I’m writing this after reading only the first and last 2 paragraphs of your essay and I can tell yah… you seem to write well… but your scripture references are a little off (in my view)… your BIGGEST mistake being your equation of “knowing the [T/t]ruth” and coming into salvation. It is easily refuted as it is NECESSARY to know the [T/t]ruth BEFORE one can be saved… thus they are two separate ideas… not one as you would imply… BUT I’ll reserve any further comment until I’ve read the rest of your postulate. Oh… a question to you. If the fastest man in the world enters a race with the slowest man if the world:
(a) would you say the fastest man is assured victory?
(b) should you say that the man HAD to run in order to win? and therefore (c) could you say that UNLESS the man run the race he cannot win?.. but he is assured the victory if he does?

Godkid, I forgot to welcome you to the Catholic Forum. I hope your time here is fruitful for you and those with whom you carry on dialogues.

So…welcome!

Just a few things I’d like to point out so you might have good discussions on this forum:

1 - if you’re going to say Hanniah wrong about her quoting scripture, at least give some specifics and use scripture yourself to show what you may interpret as her mistakes to be. Often in writing we miscommunicate a great deal and that is a huge impediment to clear dialogue…that may be the case here.

2 - when you say someone’s “BIGGEST mistake” is something, try to be somewhat more humble in how you address your disagreement. I know no one on this forum claims to be infallible, so just remember approach and tone are everything in carrying on a good dialogue. I’m sure you didn’t mean anything by it, but if I was her, I would think you were being somewhat lofty in your attack, opposed to curious in your question.

1. Also, you self-admittedly only read 4 paragraphs from her essay…if you’re going to criticize her theological work, at least read the whole work out of courtesy. It’s very possible the mistakes you think you see are only because you have read them out of context.

I know Hanniah will answer your questions the best she can, but give her some specific ones, or point out specific disagreements you have, to get a clear discussion going.

Again, not trying to look down upon you or be arrogant, but just to offer some friendly words of advice. I hope you take them as such.

Again, welcome.

 

[my_third_alias]

Good referances Zski01 .

 

[jimmy]

RomanRyan1088:

Well let me read to yall this outta the bible,

1. On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the lord Jesus Christ, in the same way as they.

Well, my friend said that this justifies Faith alone. I looked at the footnotes in the bible and it says, In the support of paul, peter formulates the fundamental meaning of Gospel: that we are all invited to be saved through the faith of christ"

Does this passage justify faith alone?

No, it does not justify faith alone. Faith and Grace are two different things. Most Christians believe that we are saved by the grace of God alone but that can not be said of faith. You can reject the grace that God has given you and go agianst what God tells you.

Faith without works is dead.

 

[Praise_the_Lord]

my third alias:

Romans Chapter2 verses6-8 and Romans chapter9 verses30-33.

Zski01:

James 2:24

Wow, my third alias and zski01 provide such strong proof. :clapping: This is all you need. No need to say more.

 

[BobCatholic]

Hmmm. Just in case, here’s some more ammo for the Catholic side

scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html

scripturecatholic.com/justification.html

catholic.com/library/Grace_What_It_Is.asp

 

[GodKid]

Hey Zski01… thanx for my apologies for any “loft” communicated in my post… but I’ll try to clarify my points by answerin the questions you posed of me (hope this doesn’t qualify as a long post ):

Zski01:

The Catholic Church defines a formed faith as one which is accompanied by hope and love…

It would seem there is some congruence in ideas here that you point to as a separation - in that catholics seem to speak to a “formed” versus “unformed” faith, and protestants seek offer some separation from everyday faith by positing an idea of “saving faith”… but just to say… you haven’t really defined formed faith either… instead you speak of it as accompanying love and hope… thereby creating a sense that formed faith is either simply different from unformed faith and accompanies hope and love, OR it is different from unformed faith in that it accompanies hope and love. The latter makes it easy to equate it with what you have offered as the Protestant view of “saving faith”

Zski01:

How do you define salvation being “offered?” …

I define it as the finished work on the cross which must be come in to in order to be realized. Pretty much it’s that one that you get free whenever there’s a “Buy one get one free” special. It’s free, you can have it… BUT you have to do something first in order to get it. So to ask the question again in another way, and with a little twist… Is a free gift really a free gift if it is offered and no one buys the necessary accompanying item?

Zski01:

1 - if you’re going to say Hanniah wrong about her quoting scripture, at least give some specifics and use scripture yourself…

Ok… i may not have mentioned the other scriptures I referred to, instead I singled out a passage which she held as almost penultimate in her thesis and gave my opinion and interpretation of that scripture. The scrip. ref is: Hebrews 10:26… and Hananiah writes “Hebrews contains probably the most explicit contradiction to eternal security of all, thundering hellfire and brimstone at those who apostatize after being sanctified by the blood of the covenant (Heb 10:26ff)” - Here she equates the scriptures speakikng of continuing to sin after coming into a knowledge of the [T/t]ruth (some versions use uppercase T while others lowercase t) with continuing to sin after being justified/saved. This, using your own postulates on faith cannot hold true - “*If you say we’re saved by unformed faith (intellecual assent), such a definition is not correct (“for even the demons believe and tremble”)**”
Zsik01:

2 - when you say someone’s “BIGGEST mistake” …

My apologies to you Hananiah, and the other readers of this thread. Zsik01, I appreciate your loving admonition… I’ll definately try to be a little more careful in my postings henceforth. I am however waiting with baited breath to hear the other responses to my questions.*

 

[GodKid]

some questions to the thread readers…

• How do you tell someone has faith?

 

[StratusRose]

RomanRyan1088:

Well let me read to yall this outta the bible,

1. On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the lord Jesus Christ, in the same way as they.

Well, my friend said that this justifies Faith alone. I looked at the footnotes in the bible and it says, In the support of paul, peter formulates the fundamental meaning of Gospel: that we are all invited to be saved through the faith of christ"

Does this passage justify faith alone?

Stop talking to this friend of yours!!!

Just kidding…glad you are inquizative. But look at it this way, I think the Catholic Church, a Church that has been around for over 2000 years knows dang well what they’re talking about…Way more than what a teenager would know. Faith alone doesnt work. I used to be a Prostestant. I just doesnt work like that. I think you should read “Rome Sweet Home” its about 2 converts. The husband in the book was a Presbyterian Minister and suscribed to faith alone, and sola scriptura. He examined them and tells what made him no longer believe in the doctrines. Read it!

 

[Hananiah]

GodKid:

your BIGGEST mistake being your equation of “knowing the [T/t]ruth” and coming into salvation. It is easily refuted as it is NECESSARY to know the [T/t]ruth BEFORE one can be saved… thus they are two separate ideas… not one as you would imply…

I never say this.

By the way, Zski, Hananiah is a man’s name.

 

[Veronica_Anne]

RomanRyan1088:

Well let me read to yall this outta the bible,

1. On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the lord Jesus Christ, in the same way as they.

Well, my friend said that this justifies Faith alone. I looked at the footnotes in the bible and it says, In the support of paul, peter formulates the fundamental meaning of Gospel: that we are all invited to be saved through the faith of christ"

Does this passage justify faith alone?

Thanks for asking! Check out the sequence of the words, there.

When it says (like here):

*we believe that we are saved through the grace of the lord Jesus Christ, *

It does NOT say “we are saved thorugh our belief that we are saved” (like here, below)

***we believe that ** we are saved through the grace of the lord Jesus Christ, *

:nope:

It DOES say that we are saved by the Jesus’ grace (like here, below)

***we believe that we are saved through the grace ** of the lord Jesus Christ, *

:yup:

Make sense now for ya?

:dancing:

 

[Zski01]

Hananiah:

I never say this.

By the way, Zski, Hananiah is a man’s name.

Wow, now I feel pretty dumb! Sorry about that

 

[nordskoven]

If salvation is through the truncted “faith only” formula, retarded people cannot be saved as having no cognitive means of coming to faith. The full dynamic is that we are saved by God’s grace; in knowing God’s grace, we may further respond (to whom much is given, much is expected) in faith; and in response to our faith, we live the love Christ commanded in works of love, not works of the law. “Faith without works is dead.” Even the demons recognize Christ is Lord. We must bring Christ’s love to life in works of love as a faith response to God’s grace.

 

[Peace-bwu]

GodKid,
I would also like to welcome you to the forum! May I offer one more piece of advice? :tiphat: Althougth this is a great place to learn about what the Catholic Church is all about, your conversations might be more fruitful if you are a little more informed on what the Catholic Church actually teaches, so that you don’t waste time setting up an argument about a misconception about the Catholic Church. I guess what I am saying is if you are going to protest the Catholic church make sure you know what you are protesting, this might make it easier to argue your point, or you might save yourself some trouble if you are about to argue a point but discover we are already in agreement. This is a great forum with interesting topics, be ready to back up your theological beliefs and have fun! Most people are kind, and strong in their religious beliefs. It’s a great place to share and learn and also practice effective evangelization and apologetics.
Again, Welcome!