No one has said Eastern Catholicism is deficient to me yet. I guess I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it. I don’t know if I’d have much to say to someone who would actually let that come out of their mouth. Unless they were just completely ignorant on church history an tradition, then maybe I’d be a little more tolerant.How do you deal with the traditionalist Roman Catholics that insist Eastern Catholicism is deficient at best? I could post to numerous threads or posters on these boards that reflect this, but for the sake of charity I’ll assume you know what I’m talking about
Also, have you spoke with any Orthodox priests or laity about your feelings?
Isn’t there a Ukrainian Catholic parish in St.Louis as well? I have never attended it personally but I have heard that it is at least more populated then the Ruthenian mission.
I also am simple person. Thank you for answer. Helped by being part of fuller Christianity - belonging to bigger church?? Fuller ? Bigger? More powerful? Yes, bishop of Rome seems very important to you - he is powerful on world stage. But Christ referring to Peter only wanted him and perhaps successor in Rome to strengthen his brothers, not to dominate them - not to make them to kiss his foot. I do not understand such desire for supreme authority other than Jesus Christ and more infallible guide than Holy Spirit. But good fortune to you! There are many wonderful things about Catholic church - but “fuller” christianity?
Maybe “fuller” isn’t the right word. I accept both sides. I don’t really see how anyone is made to kiss his foot. Can you elaborate? Powerful doesn’t play a role in my decision and neither does bigger. Why can’t I just have both? Eastern and western? That is what I mean by fuller.
If there is, I haven’t seen any sign of it yet, but I may just be missing it somehow.
Well, we are on the Eastern Catholic subforum of a Catholic site so I am not going to just sit and play dead and agree with this about the largest Eastern Catholic Church in the world to which I belong. The fact is today the most “political” Church in the former Soviet Empire is the exact Church to which the poster Volodymyr belongs. The said poster’s appellation is “Ukrainian Orthodox” but his church is thoroughly subject to Moscow, the Kremlin, and the Russian Orthodox Patriarch - the dominant position in Volodymyr’s Church is to laugh and belittle things Ukrainian (language, culture - which said poster has done before) and propagate Putin’s neo-imperialism as much as it is about a Christian message. When the Moscow Patriarch visits his Ukrainian colony, he doesn’t speak of the need to confront the rampant, immoral corruption decaying Russian and Ukrainian society. He tells Ukrainians they are Russian and not to join NATO while, unlike today’s Ukrainian Catholic hierarchy, says nothing about the utter immoral lawlessness of the authorities ruling the Kremlin or the thug ruling Ukraine. (small wonder as today’s Moscow Patriarch Kirill was involved with the cigarette and booze trade inside Russia as was mentioned in the venerable Economist journal).
kevjminnAfter a lot of time and thought on the subject. I’ve decided to become an Eastern Catholic. …
While I love eastern spirituality and the liturgy, I haven’t seen a valid argument for being separated from the Pope and the Roman Church. Therefore I am “converting”. (If that’s what you want to call it.)
So, lest I wait until Tuesday to post I’ll say as quickly as I can a few things because I have found this thread especailly poignant personally. And… at the same time I feel a sadness when someone has to make this choice which you are making to leave Holy Orthodoxy in order to be in communion with the Catholic Church. I am reminded of how we ECs were given the choice by the Soviet regime of becoming Orthodox or Latin Catholics when our Churches were taken away from us during the Communist era. I feel a sadness that I am not in communion with the Russian Orthodox parish I’ve grown close to.I think we needn’t worry about “Traditionalist” Roman Catholics in this regard, especially those who like to lecture Eastern Catholics about not being fully loyal to the Holy See because we insist on having our Particular Churches.How do you deal with the traditionalist Roman Catholics that insist Eastern Catholicism is deficient at best? I could post to numerous threads or posters on these boards that reflect this, but for the sake of charity I’ll assume you know what I’m talking about
Also, have you spoke with any Orthodox priests or laity about your feelings?
This is all true, sir. However, the points made by Volodymyr about the historical issues surrounding the Unia are largely accepted even by RC theologians involved in dialogue with the Orthodox.Well, we are on the Eastern Catholic subforum of a Catholic site so I am not going to just sit and play dead and agree with this about the largest Eastern Catholic Church in the world to which I belong. The fact is today the most “political” Church in the former Soviet Empire is the exact Church to which the poster Volodymyr belongs. The said poster’s appellation is “Ukrainian Orthodox” but his church is thoroughly subject to Moscow, the Kremlin, and the Russian Orthodox Patriarch - the dominant position in Volodymyr’s Church is to laugh and belittle things Ukrainian (language, culture - which said poster has done before) and propagate Putin’s neo-imperialism as much as it is about a Christian message. When the Moscow Patriarch visits his Ukrainian colony, he doesn’t speak of the need to confront the rampant, immoral corruption decaying Russian and Ukrainian society. He tells Ukrainians they are Russian and not to join NATO while, unlike today’s Ukrainian Catholic hierarchy, says nothing about the utter immoral lawlessness of the authorities ruling the Kremlin or the thug ruling Ukraine. (small wonder as today’s Moscow Patriarch Kirill was involved with the cigarette and booze trade inside Russia as was mentioned in the venerable Economist journal).
In Ukraine, the Ukrainian Catholic prelates are forbidden from seeking political office. Not so for the Russian Orthodox which is why the Metropolitan of Odesa in Volodymyr’s Church can belong to the local government and prevent 50,000 Ukrainian Catholics from building one church.
The current Patriarch of Moscow was already in cahoots with the Communist atheist Kremlin in 1972 when he was chosen to be the Russian Orthodox Church’s representative to the World Council of Churches which could only mean the KGB trusted him most. As former KGB officer and now defender of Russian democracy Oleg Kalugin writes in the latest issue of the “Journal of International Security Affairs”:
“Today’s Russia is ruled by a new triumvirate: the new generation of the KGB, the Russian Orthodox Church, and big business. In this equation, however, the KGB is the senior partner; the church, including the current patriarchate of Moscow (like all previous ones), is controlled by the KGB, while Russian big business is penetrated by it”
Kalugin would know. He risks his life telling the truth of the lawlessness of Putin - Putin’s party is called by many Russians the party of crooks and thieves and similarly in Ukraine the current ruler Yanukovych runs a coterie of crooks. The Russian Orthodox Patriarch will not criticize either. Indeed, he approves of ruthless dictators like Belarus’ Lukashenko who brutally crushes any democratic opposition.
So please, let’s be clear, we are on an Eastern Catholic site and the church with the biggest role in serving Caesar and the new KGB tsar is the Russian Orthodox Church which claims itself to be the largest Orthodox Church in the world. All this talk of kissing the Pope’s foot is ridiculous, especially when compared to having to kiss the ring of a Patriarch who worked and works hand in glove with the KGB and now FSB (Russian secret police) and who praises the thugs currently ruling Belarus, Ukraine and Russia - thugs who couldn’t care less for human dignity or rights. That’s why the head of the Russian Orthodox Church will never condemn the forcible torture and execution by Stalin and his secret police of the Ukrainian Catholic Church - indeed it is still held in high regard by the Russian Orthodox hierarchy which says something to me at least about its moral compass.
And to the OP, welcome.
I wasn’t going to get involved but all this trush about having to kiss the Pope’s foot coming from someone who belongs to a thoroughly politicized church is too much for me, and that on an Eastern Catholic forum.
I really couldn’t answer if you’re acting too quickly because I’m in a similar situation of trying to discern the truth of both churches. I think the answer to that has to be individual, and as long as you’re studying the issues, praying, and trying to discern God’s will, you’re doing all that you can. I still have alot of questions and concerns that I may never resolve favorably for Catholicism, but I think it’s important to keep asking and trying.No one has said Eastern Catholicism is deficient to me yet. I guess I’ll cross that bridge when I come to it. I don’t know if I’d have much to say to someone who would actually let that come out of their mouth. Unless they were just completely ignorant on church history an tradition, then maybe I’d be a little more tolerant.
No I haven’t spoken with an Orthodox priest on the subject recently. My wife and I had instruction for a year and a half before we were accepted into the church. A lot of my questions were about RC relations and church history. I don’t know what else they’d tell me.
You’re Orthodox, what’s your opinion? Do you think I’m jumping the gun? I’m always open to a little criticism and other peoples opinions as long as it’s respectful.
Alex, I am no sir.
Fair ball and I agree!Alex, I am no sir.
I understand the complexity and the religious and political factors involved in the Union of Brest, and Dr. Gudziak among others has written on the matter.
My main concern was not to look at the politics of 400 years ago, but to look at the “political-religious” situation today which is more relevant. History is history and we are where we are as HB Lubomyr Husar stated not too long ago. The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth has not existed for centuries now, however. The Russian “empire” and Russkiy Mir is still here. I bemoan just as you do Rome engaging in Ostpolitik with Moscow whenever the latter raises every possible threat to our Church having a Patriarchate. It has been my experience however in responding to the poster to whom I responded that he believes our Church to be involved in “obman” or deceit in Ukraine, a position which I believe you don’t share. Knowing full well what our Church endured last century I can’t countenance that type of view, nor do I believe the good doctor can either.
Andrew
I agree with much in your above post Alex. On the particular point above mentioned by you, I don’t know and, truth be told, I am not a stickler for this issue - Kyiv/Kiev - same gist though the Ukrainian government chose Kyiv so that’s why I use it. I am not going to lose any sleep over it.
To say that Eastern Catholocisism is defecient does not make sense to me. This does not compute. I don’t know what you are talking about.How do you deal with the traditionalist Roman Catholics that insist Eastern Catholicism is deficient at best? I could post to numerous threads or posters on these boards that reflect this, but for the sake of charity I’ll assume you know what I’m talking about
Also, have you spoke with any Orthodox priests or laity about your feelings?
If the we talk about Catholicism East and West and we speak of Eastern Orthodox and Catholic as Sister Churches. Then you are in the family worshiping as you choose with a Sister Church. In time with prayer there will be East/West united and the Sisters will hold hands.After a lot of time and thought on the subject. I’ve decided to become an Eastern Catholic.
I would like to thank the people who have responded to some my posts and answered some of my questions. It has helped me a lot. I’ve been in a very awkward state the last 6 months trying to decide whether to become an EC or remain in the OC. I think I’ve focused too much on church politics and the trivial issues that separate instead of focusing on Christ. May God forgive me for that.
While I love eastern spirituality and the liturgy, I haven’t seen a valid argument for being separated from the Pope and the Roman Church. Therefore I am “converting”. (If that’s what you want to call it.)
God bless you all, and thanks for your help.
Very nice!
I was referring to some Roman Catholic traditionalists who come here and accuse Eastern Catholics of not being Catholic enough. They usually criticize their use of the Nicene Creed without the filioque, view of the Pope as excercising his authority collegially, and not using certain Latin theological formulae. I agree with you that it’s ridiculous, but it’s something I’ve seen quite often here.