OK, let's assume a creator

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Spock

*It does not only sound logical, but it happens all the time. Children are not inferior to the parents, many times they are superior. *

This is not logical. Parents don’t create their children in the same way that a Creator would create a universe. Parents only reproduce themselves in a child. Do you think the Creator only reproduces himself in his universe? If he does, then the intelligent being he created in Man must have first existed in some intelligent part of the Creator.

Another argument for Intelligent Design? 😃
 
This is not logical. Parents don’t create their children in the same way that a Creator would create a universe. Parents only reproduce themselves in a child. Do you think the Creator only reproduces himself in his universe? If he does, then the intelligent being he created in Man must have first existed in some intelligent part of the Creator.
Creation is creation. To make something that was not there before. The creators of Deep Blue made a new gadget, which is superior to them. The principle that the creation is always inferior to the creator is simply false.
 
Creation is creation. To make something that was not there before. The creators of Deep Blue made a new gadget, which is superior to them. The principle that the creation is always inferior to the creator is simply false.
If you think Deep Blue is is superior to human beings because it can beat us in chess, then this discussion would have to be over. Might as well say a volcano is better than humanity because it can destroy humanity in a competition. THIS is not reasonable at all. I hope I am wrong, but my guess is that you are dodging the reasonable arguments that are proposed. Again, I hope I am wrong.
 
Spock
*
The creators of Deep Blue made a new gadget, which is superior to them.*

In what ways is it superior to them, since it could never have existed without being designed by them? 😃
 
If you think Deep Blue is is superior to human beings because it can beat us in chess, then this discussion would have to be over. Might as well say a volcano is better than humanity because it can destroy humanity in a competition. THIS is not reasonable at all. I hope I am wrong, but my guess is that you are dodging the reasonable arguments that are proposed. Again, I hope I am wrong.
In what ways is it superior to them, since it could never have existed without being designed by them?
It is superior in a certain respect, namely that it can beat its creators in the field that it was designed for.

Consider a cumputer which is designed to create new integrated circuits. The computer is clearly superior to its creators in that respect. As a matter of fact, the new computer chips are all designed by other computers. And these new computers are superior to their designers.

This whole side-track is based upon the idea that the creator is always superior to its creation, which is simply wrong. An inferior cause can produce a superior effect.
 
I am presently reading, for the first time, William Paley’s Natural Theology. In this book, written in the early 1800s, Paley had already presented a case for Intelligent Design (the watchmaker argument). The chapter on astronomy (Chapter 22) was particularly interesting, because there have been huge advances in astronomy since his time. But even then he was able to make the case that there are too many fortunate coincidences in Earth, Sun and Moon history all coming together at the same time, setting the stage for life to be made possible, that we should believe it all happened randomly. If he knew what we know about astronomy today (the Big Bang, for example), he would be able to have made an even more powerful argument for Intelligent Design. And if he had known anything about evolution, he would have found a great deal more evidence of circumstances being too happily synchronized to be pure accident.
 
It is superior in a certain respect, namely that it can beat its creators in the field that it was designed for.

Consider a cumputer which is designed to create new integrated circuits. The computer is clearly superior to its creators in that respect. As a matter of fact, the new computer chips are all designed by other computers. And these new computers are superior to their designers.

This whole side-track is based upon the idea that the creator is always superior to its creation, which is simply wrong. An inferior cause can produce a superior effect.
I still disagree. And it is not simply wrong. That is your conjecture. Computers are not sentient beings. They are not even beings. Humanity is still superior to those computers. The only reason computers can create those things is because humans made them specifically for that purpose. Which means that humans already knew how to create them. We can program specific quantities of measurements based on our knowledge of them. Computers do nothing on their own. They require human intervention. The fact that they can do things passively say more about humanity than the computers because WE set it to run without our manual labor.

In no respect is it superior.

Simply said: No humans. No computers. No human knowledge. No creations from computers.
 
Gregg

*Simply said: No humans. No computers. *

Case Closed! 😃
Well, one would hope so. Spock might come back with the Trash Can Theory or he/she might still not be persuaded or something.

God bless fellow Texan. I am from the Valley in South Texas. Harlingen to be exact.
 
I still disagree. And it is not simply wrong. That is your conjecture. Computers are not sentient beings. They are not even beings. Humanity is still superior to those computers. The only reason computers can create those things is because humans made them specifically for that purpose. Which means that humans already knew how to create them. We can program specific quantities of measurements based on our knowledge of them. Computers do nothing on their own. They require human intervention. The fact that they can do things passively say more about humanity than the computers because WE set it to run without our manual labor.
None of that is relevant. Sorry, but you don’t know a whole lot about computers. Yes, there are computers which can design and build other computers which are superior to the creating ones. Humans started the process, and are left in the dust. They cannot even understand the working of the second generation of those computers.
In no respect is it superior.
So Deep Blue cannot beat the human chessplayers?
 
Spock

*So Deep Blue cannot beat the human chessplayers? *

Only because a human programmed it to do so. Who is superior … the computer or the human who can pull the computer’s plug? 😃
 
Gregg

God bless fellow Texan. I am from the Valley in South Texas. Harlingen to be exact.

We know people from Lubbock who head your way for 3 months in their RVs every December! 😃

We have some really good winters, and some not so good. But nothing so horrible as Massachusetts where we lived for 30 years! No snow here. No long winters and short summers. No traffic jams. Best of all: No state income tax!

Illinois has just passed a bill to increase theirs by 66%! :eek:
 
Creation is creation. To make something that was not there before. The creators of Deep Blue made a new gadget, which is superior to them. The principle that the creation is always inferior to the creator is simply false.
Your assumptions are not my assumptions. Deep Blue does not prove wrong that an effect can not be greater its cause. There is not philosopher of note anywhere that would make the claim that this axiom has ever been proven right or wrong.

Deep Blue can not even mow the lawn or do the dishes. Deep Blue is not capable of picking another computer for friendship or sacrificing its life for another machine. It really didn’t do much of anything but play chess. Being superior in one area is not being superior.
 
None of that is relevant. Sorry, but you don’t know a whole lot about computers. Yes, there are computers which can design and build other computers which are superior to the creating ones. Humans started the process, and are left in the dust. They cannot even understand the working of the second generation of those computers.
None of THAT is relevant to this discussion. The pre-emptive apology did not work. You cannot say “Sorry” and then belittle their intelligence based on an assumption that you are right and then expect the apology to work. I can make brownies that tastes better than my skin. Is it more superior in any respect? Your analogies are almost as pointless as that one. The computer does not do the designing. We design. The computer just follows the designation. Or does the computer just create something randomly and it just so happens to be better? That is like Richard Dawkins creating that computer program to “run evolution” on a chance basis but with guidelines. The idea is contradictory.

My point still stands. Whether or not you agree is irrelevant. Just because you fail to see it does not matter. As a matter of fact, unbeknownst to you you just defended my statement quite well.
So Deep Blue cannot beat the human chessplayers?
So, tell me. Which is more superior: the human who created it to win all the time or the computer that was created by the human?

Did I even imply that someone cannot win? Heck no. Google can beat you in a game of trivia. Are you inferior to it? Not at all. If you say yes, then you are set. There is no point in discussing this. The computer can draw a “D” better than you can. Is it superior to you in any respect? Especially when we programmed it to do that. Not at all. Unless you agree that that you are no better than bacteria because it can make people sick better than you can. Your idea of “superior” and “inferior” is based on the concept that of “better” and “worse”, rather than the idea of “quality”. THAT is the idea we have been referring to. If you have problems with THAT, then perhaps we can have a RATIONAL discussion instead of assuming that because a computer can beat me, I am inferior “in that respect”. Whatever that means…

Again, these things are NOT superior to us in ANY respect. My last post still stands.
 
Spock

*Sorry, but you don’t know a whole lot about computers. Yes, there are computers which can design and build other computers which are superior to the creating ones. Humans started the process, and are left in the dust. *

Your handle is apt, as you appear to live in a science fiction world. 😃

Humans are not left in the dust. The ultimate power of man to create and to destroy is not taken from him. It is the computer that is left in the dust when man decides to pull its plug. 👍
 
This is your assumption, and I am going to go along with it - in this thread. Let’s assume that this universe is not all there is. Let’s pretend that your “first something”, “prime whatever”, etc… type of argument was successful. What can be deduced from this assumption? Use your logic only. The only starting point is that the universe does not stand on its own right, that it was created. No reference to faith, revelation and such. No other auxiliary assumptions. What can you say about this creator?
All of the “first somethings” arguments revolve around the ideas of metaphysical perfection. I assume that you aren’t really interested in this aspect too much in this thread, and New Advent has a good article on these types of arguments: newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

So, we have deduced the existence of a self-existent, metaphysically perfect, and metaphysically infinite being. We can also observe the fact of our own existence as beings which are not self-existent, metaphysically perfect and metaphysically infinite.

Think about what this means. A perfect and self-existent being exists. This being does not need anything else and cannot benefit (or “increase in perfection”) from anything. This self-existent being needs nothing else, cannot be benefited or harmed by anything else, and cannot change in response to anything else. This being is perfectly self-contained and independent.

Despite this, we also clearly exist as limited contingent beings. We are not self-existent and unchangeable, so we must draw our existence from somewhere. All contingent existence must come from non contingent existence, so our own existence necessarily comes from the self-existent being, often called “God.”

This tells us something about the nature of this perfect being- it created us without any benefit to itself. This perfect being cannot benefit from us, yet created us anyway. This indicates a form of altruism on the part of the perfect being. This altruistic dynamic is called “goodness” by most people.

On occasion, atheists ask why God cannot be just experimenting with us, or using us for entertainment, or plotting evil things against us. The reason is simply this- God cannot gain knowledge or entertainment from us. God cannot be an “evil” God because God by necessity cannot benefit from us. All forms of evil we observe involve self-gain, so it is irrational to propose a hitherto unknown form of evil.

So, we have established the goodness of God. A good God would desire to make His will known to us- for creating us without any form of guidance would be irresponsible. So, it makes sense that God would use some medium of communication with us. Philosophy and science seem to be methods by which God could communicate his will to us. However, religion seems to be the most relevant method by which God would be communicating to us. We would expect the religion to have some sort of structure and authority to effectively proclaim and protect the message of this God.

Looking at different religions, Catholicism is the best fit for these criteria. The Church has an organized structure to deal to pragmatic problems. This central structure enables it to declare an official body of doctrine as the official communication of God. The Church has the structure to identify and nullify false representations of this message, such as when it removes theological teaching licenses. There is an official, clear, party line that Catholicism espouses and holds binding on all, much to the annoyance of her opponents.

In contrast, other religions lack this authority structure. Protestantism is based on private interpretation of ancient documents, which has led to 30,000 different denominations and interpretations of what the Bible actually says. Protestantism does not work in terms of providing a coherent body of official doctrine. Islam has no central authority, so there is no way to tell whether terrorists or moderates are correct in their understanding of Islam. Eastern philosophies tend to deny the law of non-contradiction, which makes them meaningless in every sense of the word. Judaism is tied to a specific ethnic group, and there is no reason to think that a good God would give his goodness only to a specific ethnicity.

Mormons are unique in having an authority structure similar to Catholicism. However, they have other problems, such as openly contradictory accounts of its founding moment (the First Vision), baseless historical claims (the early Americans), no credible historical ties to the actual person of Jesus, whoever he was, among other problems. From this analysis, we can conclude that the Catholic Church is the best explanation for what we know by reason.

From this rational acceptance of the Catholic Church as an explanation, we naturally accept the authority of the Church and then, and only then, accept the claims based only on this authority- such as the authority of the Bible.

I am briefly summarizing here. I could go greatly in depth on each point, and will do so if you want.
 
It is superior in a certain respect, namely that it can beat its creators in the field that it was designed for.

Consider a cumputer which is designed to create new integrated circuits. The computer is clearly superior to its creators in that respect. As a matter of fact, the new computer chips are all designed by other computers. And these new computers are superior to their designers.

This whole side-track is based upon the idea that the creator is always superior to its creation, which is simply wrong. An inferior cause can produce a superior effect.
Spock, I agree with you.🙂

Specifically, when you state that x can {‘create’ }‘produce’ an object y which can do function z even though x cannot do function z only y can or in some instance y can do it better than x. This statement is completely logical and easily verifyable.

Can all the monks in the world produce as many books as the presses in the world? No.

Can two hundred people get themselves from New York to Paris faster than the Concorde or some other supersonic airplane? No.

Can I write as neatly and precise as my computer and printer in roman letters in an exact size? No.

etceta, etcetera. etcetera…

http://www.autoevolution.com/images/news/concorde-will-take-to-the-skies-again-21839_1.jpg
The problem I see is in the application, the semantics and the lack of recognition of human dignity. My sons, for instance, may be honor student and all you want, but, don’t tell me that they are better than me. Who is a better human being to you? How are you deciding which humans are better than others? Also, that word ‘Creator’ really needs to be defined. Finally, it is illogical to take **an aspect **of what is true of x and apply it to something that is totally different y and at that completely. It doesn’t follow. For, even though humans can produce/create something that ultimately does a function better and quicker than they can, you can not take that function to evaluate the worth and total value of a humanity. That’s illogical. Take a look at your applications please. It’s like someone said: we can still unplug the darn thing.
 
Yes, there are computers which can design and build other computers which are superior to the creating ones. Humans started the process, and are left in the dust. They cannot even understand the working of the second generation of those computers.
Dear Mr. Spock, it appears as though you want to illogically conclude that computers are superior to humans so you can establish that creatures can be superior to their creator. In other words, you seem to be leading the discussion to establishing that the creator can be inferior to some of the species at least that He/It/Whatever created in this universe. It appears as though you want to ultimately establish that human beings the most intelligent of creatures may actuallly be superior to the creator (maybe the chant “We are Gods!” from that pit I was talking about on another thread). If that is the case, you are going to end up with the claim that computers are gods. :hypno: Don’t you think that it would be a little ludicrous for people to go around believing computers are gods and superior to the creator of the whole entire universe? Where are you headed?
 
All of you are way off the mark. I do not argue about the creator being necessarily inferior to its creation. You argue that the creation is necessarily inferior to the creator. All I am saying, that there is no logical necessity which would say that any and all “created entities” must be inferior to the creator. The creative process is not a degenerative process.

The examples I brought up are just that, examples, which show that at least in some respect the created can surpass the creator. And if the creation can surpass the creator in some respect, then it can surpass it in every respect. Again, there is no logical necessity which would declare that the abilities of any beings are inversely proportional with each other.
 
Spock, I agree with you.🙂

Specifically, when you state that x can {‘create’ }‘produce’ an object y which can do function z even though x cannot do function z only y can or in some instance y can do it better than x. This statement is completely logical and easily verifyable.
Can all the monks in the world produce as many books as the presses in the world? No.
Can two hundred people get themselves from New York to Paris faster than the Concorde or some other supersonic airplane? No.
Can I write as neatly and precise as my computer and printer in roman letters in an exact size? No.
etceta, etcetera. etcetera…
Well, at least we have a partial agreement.
The problem I see is in the application, the semantics and the lack of recognition of human dignity. My sons, for instance, may be honor student and all you want, but, don’t tell me that they are better than me. Who is a better human being to you? How are you deciding which humans are better than others?
I said nothing along these lines. I did not mention “dignity” or “being better”. That is something you added, not I. All I said that the created being can be more capable than the creator - and thus it can be superior.
Also, that word ‘Creator’ really needs to be defined.
First, I never mentioned a “capitalized” creator. All I stipulated that this universe was “created”, nothing more.
For, even though humans can produce/create something that ultimately does a function better and quicker than they can, you can not take that function to evaluate the worth and total value of a humanity. That’s illogical.
Since I said nothing about the “worth and total value of humanity”, you are fighting a windmill here.
Dear Mr. Spock, it appears as though you want to illogically conclude that computers are superior to humans so you can establish that creatures can be superior to their creator. In other words, you seem to be leading the discussion to establishing that the creator can be inferior to some of the species at least that He/It/Whatever created in this universe. It appears as though you want to ultimately establish that human beings the most intelligent of creatures may actuallly be superior to the creator (maybe the chant “We are Gods!” from that pit I was talking about on another thread). If that is the case, you are going to end up with the claim that computers are gods. :hypno: Don’t you think that it would be a little ludicrous for people to go around believing computers are gods and superior to the creator of the whole entire universe? Where are you headed?
I am completely uninterested in gods. I am only interested in the logical conclusions coming from the assumption that the universe was created. Why can’t we stay within the topic of the thread?
 
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