OK to be gay ... and Catholic??

[RyanML]

I cannot agree to disagree because I mostly agree with you. A priest should clarify before telling them not to present themselves. That doesn’t mean that he should give them communion before clarifying though. This last point I find that your above paragraph does not treat, so I will not assume you stand one way or the other on it.

Hmmm…in my opinion it would be best for the priest to get clarification about the situation before refusing to give Communion. It just seems that if a priest started making assumptions about certain situations in his parish and began refusing communion to people it could cause a lot of unnecessary problems and even scandalize those who are weaker in faith.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Now what’s your definition of prudent? Seriously, what do you mean by that. I’m not sure it fits with the traditional definition, but I’m interested in hearing how you understand it so I can know where you’re coming from.

Assume people behave in accordance with God’s law? Sorry, that sounds very very naive to me.

“Prudent” might not have been the right word. What I mean is:

(1) A priest may not make decision regarding administration of the sacraments (or any other decision in theexercise of his priestly duties, for that matter) based on hearsay, circumstantial evidence, or even what he has heard in the confessional. Only God knows what is in our hearts. For example, during a lecture in Canon Law, a priest told our law school class that, if he heard a penitent confess to him that he was going to the priest’s neighborhood to go burgle somebody, the priest would be canonically prohibited from going home and locking his windows (i.e. using that knowledge). Thus, for a priest / deacon / alter server / nun / usher / etc. to take any action based on what his observations tell him is a homosexual relationship is wrong. The Church must take people as it finds them. The Talmud, for example, is replete with stories praising revered rabbis for bending over backwards to refrain from condemning what appear to be sinful acts if there is even a chance that there might not be sin involved (e.g. man picks fruit on the sabbath – perhaps he needs the fruit extract to make a life-saving tonic for his sick child).

Now, did Jesus Christ ferociously drive out the money changers? Yes, he did. And well he should hav. But the money changers were transacting business in the Temple in plain view. I suppose if a priest happened to stumble upon a parishioner committing a homosexual act in the church bathroom before mass, then in that case he would be justified in refusing Communion. But, barring that…

(2) We, as members of the faithful. A male coworker of mine lives with another man and attends Catholic mass with him every week. It is not my place to interrogate him and ask him if he is living a chaste life, and, if not, to order him to refrain from receiving the Eucharist. Instead, I am happy that they are attending mass. In short, I cannot be sure that I percieve the splinter in his eye on account of the visual impariment occasioned by my own ocular hylomorphism.

Gee, that was long. Sorry about that.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

And I’m sure most people do not live in accordance with God’s law. But unless someone is a public sinner (politicians who publically support abortion, for example), then how can a priest just pick and choose who he thinks might be in mortal sin and refuse Holy Communion?

This guy said what I was trying to say better, and briefer.

 

[sparkielee]

It is NOT ok to practice gay sex, and go to the Sacrament of the Eucharist, communion.
And yes gays who are celibate can be practicing Catholics. And anyone can attend a Catholic mass, however only those who are in the “state of grace” can go to communion.
Catholics do not hate gays.Not at all.

This reminds me of something our Bishop said at a retreat I went to. That we do not know what the source of homosexuality is. But he’d be doing gay people a disservice by just saying “You can’t help it-keep doing what you’re doing” Instead he recommends that they remain celibate like priests and religious.

Of course, any layperson who is not married (to someone of the opposite sex) is expected to be celibate until they take their wedding vows. I’ve learned that not only are there vocations to the priesthood, marriage, and religious life, there are some to the single state too. Maybe the gays who can’t cross over and become straight are called to this life. Maybe they can teach other gays how their lives can be lived a celibate Christians.

-sparkie

 

[1way]

This reminds me of something our Bishop said at a retreat I went to. That we do not know what the source of homosexuality is.

-sparkie

Romans 6:16
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

Romans 1:

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.​

… Once the door is opened, either by the individual or someone in the family line ( who sinned? … this man or his parents that caused him to be born blind? ) the propensity to be drawn in that direction is very strong. It is similar to an addiction to drugs inherited by the baby through the mother’s addiction.

In addition Jesus talked about the thief that comes to steal, kill and destroy. Once they get a foothold in a person through agreement with them (intentional or not) … spirits of homosexuality or lesbianism dont want to leave and will make inroads where ever they can in order to satisfy themselves through their unsuspecting host. Most gay people are completely oblivious to this reality. Therefore they are unaware of how to rid themselves of the torment even if they want to. They either suffer with the torment caused by the spirit/addiction or succumb to it.

The biggest lie that satan ever perpetrated on mankind is that he doesnt exist.

 

[eviniho]

No i dont think its ok to be gay and catholic. These people need our prayers as thay are being blinded by sin. God loves them just like he loves all sinners but he hates the sin of the person. We cant be a good catholic and be unfaithful to both the bible and the teaching of the catholic church which clearly states homosexuality is wrong.

 

[1way]

No i dont think its ok to be gay and catholic. These people need our prayers as thay are being blinded by sin. God loves them just like he loves all sinners but he hates the sin of the person. We cant be a good catholic and be unfaithful to both the bible and the teaching of the catholic church which clearly states homosexuality is wrong.

Isaiah 5:13
… my people will go into exile for lack of understanding.

I see it this way; There is so much confusion on the issue because there is an avalanche of misinformation on the subject… Of course it is considered to be wrong by good Catholics. That fact has not made a dent in the problem.

Most smokers deal with guilt every time they light up. That is not usually a strong enough incentive to face the problem.

The root of the problem must be clearly recognized and dealt with, using effective tools … Yelling at the symptoms never works (with much of anything) unless someone is available to back the words up with wisdom IMHO.

 

[brittrossiter]

… I’ve learned that not only are there vocations to the priesthood, marriage, and religious life, there are some to the single state too. Maybe the gays who can’t cross over and become straight are called to this life. Maybe they can teach other gays how their lives can be lived a celibate Christians.

That last sentence says it all for me. I do know from my own struggles in this regard that there is a real shortage of information and support in this area, and it’s a huge problem. Say what you want about the so-called “gay scene,” but for those who have been living that lifestyle for any length of time, that “scene” is likely the only support system that they have. It is usually the only collection of people who have ever welcomed them - typically more so than the gays’ own family. Indeed, gays frequently refer to other gays as “family,” precisely for this reason.

Asking gays to leave that scene behind, and enter into communion with the Church, is in essence asking them to rip themselves apart from this “family” and abandon nearly every person who has ever accepted them for who they are (or, more accurately, who they perceive they are), and replace that with … what? A sympathetic priest, and if you’re lucky, a Courage chapter within a two hour’s drive. And a parish full of people who have no idea who you are. It’s like moving to a strange small town.

Now, of course, what gays are really inheriting by abandoning their so-called family is the Eucharist, God’s sanctifying Grace, and communion with His Church. But many of them lose sight of that through all of the loneliness and uncertainty. “OK, I’m here, now what do I do?” And this is at a time when they are undergoing an immense and difficult personal struggle towards chastity, especially if they’ve been in “the lifestyle” for an extended period of time. They see people talk about the three typical life vocations (married, priestly, religious), and then they look at themselves, and find that they are in most cases disqualified from all three.

Assuming that there truly is a “single” vocation out there - and I hope and believe that there is - getting the word out about this vocation, how to live it, and establishing some sort of support network for it should be a far higher priority than it presently appears to be. Priests, religious, and married folk have numerous mechanisms in place to aid and direct them in their vocations. We have… not quite so much.

My two cents.

 

[sparkielee]

Romans 6:16
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

The biggest lie that satan ever perpetrated on mankind is that he doesnt exist.

I can certainly encourage people to obey the Lord instead of any sinful tendencies we have. And we all have them. And we need to pray and ask the Lord for the strength to avoid sins, regardless of what they are. And causing one to believe that Satan doesn’t exist is certainly one of the tools in his bag of tricks.

He’ll do anything he can to trick us.

-sparkie

 

[browntrixie]

Our Church has a nonCatholic practicing homosexual leading the choir. Some of the Church members believe that a practicing homosexual at the front of the Church is not in keeping with the Church’s beliefs. Any thoughts?

 

[1way]

That last sentence says it all for me. I do know from my own struggles in this regard that there is a real shortage of information and support in this area, and it’s a huge problem. Say what you want about the so-called “gay scene,” but for those who have been living that lifestyle for any length of time, that “scene” is likely the only support system that they have. It is usually the only collection of people who have ever welcomed them - typically more so than the gays’ own family. Indeed, gays frequently refer to other gays as “family,” precisely for this reason.

Asking gays to leave that scene behind, and enter into communion with the Church, is in essence asking them to rip themselves apart from this “family” and abandon nearly every person who has ever accepted them for who they are (or, more accurately, who they perceive they are), and replace that with … what? A sympathetic priest, and if you’re lucky, a Courage chapter within a two hour’s drive. And a parish full of people who have no idea who you are. It’s like moving to a strange small town.

Now, of course, what gays are really inheriting by abandoning their so-called family is the Eucharist, God’s sanctifying Grace, and communion with His Church. But many of them lose sight of that through all of the loneliness and uncertainty. “OK, I’m here, now what do I do?” And this is at a time when they are undergoing an immense and difficult personal struggle towards chastity, especially if they’ve been in “the lifestyle” for an extended period of time. They see people talk about the three typical life vocations (married, priestly, religious), and then they look at themselves, and find that they are in most cases disqualified from all three.

Assuming that there truly is a “single” vocation out there - and I hope and believe that there is - getting the word out about this vocation, how to live it, and establishing some sort of support network for it should be a far higher priority than it presently appears to be. Priests, religious, and married folk have numerous mechanisms in place to aid and direct them in their vocations. We have… not quite so much.

My two cents.

Not sure how to respond without saying the wrong thing.
It is my perception that people who are “in the lifestyle” find ways to communicate. Where there is a will there is a way. Perhaps creating an online chat room on this website could lead to the beginning of the fulfillment of the void that exists. I have found that no matter what the obstacle … the key (and really the only solution that is effective) is to develop a new “lifestyle” … that is to work hard to develop a real relationship with God. This book comes to mind. (it is published online and free)

practicegodspresence.com/brotherlawrence/

The principles he followed … which are clearly described and very achievable for anyone with the will to do it, will create a new life within. Brother Lawrence put into practice the words of the Bible “be transformed through the renewing of your mind … by the washing of the words of God.” The results and the relationship he achieved are amazing… and the Bible clearly states that God gives everyone the same opportunities. You dont have to pay thousands of dollars for the seminar with the Guru … It is free and open to all.

As it says in Isaiah 55

1 "Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.
2 Why spend money on what is not bread,
and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.

3 Give ear and come to me;
hear me, that your soul may live.
I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
my faithful love promised to David.

Even the healthy relationships that you describe above will not fulfill life’s deepest longings unless Christ is the foundation.

 

[1way]

Our Church has a nonCatholic practicing homosexual leading the choir. Some of the Church members believe that a practicing homosexual at the front of the Church is not in keeping with the Church’s beliefs. Any thoughts?

Our Parish had a similar situation. I suggest that you pray for the individual … that God will convict him …and that the Pastor would be given (and use) wisdom … I have seen amazing results from that kind of prayer. It might not happen immediately but it will happen.

If the man is openly gay … that cannot be setting the kind of example that young Catholics need to be exposed to right in front of them …every Sunday. Perhaps talking to the Priest that makes those decisions might be in order …approaching it from the perspective of how the example can influence young minds.
Gay people need to have a place where they can feel accepted and needed in a healthy way… but being put in a place of leadership while still maintaining an openly sinful relationship is not healthy IMHO. Would the Pastor allow a person openly living in adultery to lead a marriage encounter/ retreat?

It would be better for a man to have a millstone placed around his neck an thrown into the sea …than for him to cause even one of the children to fall into sin. (paraphrased)

 

[pickguard1]

ocular hylomorphism.

I love it! I wonder if that is the original Latin Vulgate for “mote”

 

[pickguard1]

Our Church has a nonCatholic practicing homosexual leading the choir. Some of the Church members believe that a practicing homosexual at the front of the Church is not in keeping with the Church’s beliefs. Any thoughts?

I don’t think it’s necessary to have a non-catholic leading the Choir, and definitley inappropriate for a “practicing” homosexual. (if indeed it is 100% known that the person is actively living an adulterous life.) There should be plenty of catholics who can lead the choir - why the decision to have a non-catholic lead it?

 

[redrosetea]

Not sure if this is a traditional question or a political/social one.

I know two women who have been openly living in a lesbian relationship for years.
In fact they met while they were both in the convent. They left the sisterhood and have lived together ever since … 40 years. They were school teachers, retired now, that have been an active part of the community all their lives.
My question: Can they still be considered Catholic? Can they receive Communion?
What is the Church’s position toward active gay/lebian people who attend the Catholic Church?

What does scripture say about it? Did St Paul say it was OK?

 

[pickguard1]

Assuming that there truly is a “single” vocation out there - and I hope and believe that there is - getting the word out about this vocation, how to live it, and establishing some sort of support network for it should be a far higher priority than it presently appears to be. Priests, religious, and married folk have numerous mechanisms in place to aid and direct them in their vocations. We have… not quite so much.

My two cents.

Your two cents are worth more than that, I would say. I think that had there been the network/support structure within the Church, my brother (who is gay) might possibly still be a practicing Catholic to this day (which he was up until our sophomore year in High School). When he “came out,” there was not really anything in the way of guidance/support available from the parish to establish that his orientation was not sinful - just acts following from it, and that he could still lead a Christian life.

Instead, there were PFLAG meetings, a brief stint for him at a local Episcopalian Church that condoned homosexual behavior, and then neo-paganism (essentially). He is so entrenched in surrounding himself with other homosexuals that, like you said, to come back to the church would probably be like cutting himself off from his family.

There definitly needs to be more support here (in the Church) for the large numbers of homosexuals - they need to know that they have our support and prayers, rather than personal condemnation, and ostracism.

 

[authenticity]

Just to keep the record straight (no pun intended), everyone, married or not, is required to be chaste.

Good point. Chastity has been greatly understated. I don’t think that many homosexuals realize that the Church calls all members to be chaste, not just them. And the reason they think that way is because most heterosexual members can’t control their sexual instincts any more than homosexuals.

 

[1way]

Good point. Chastity has been greatly understated. I don’t think that many homosexuals realize that the Church calls all members to be chaste, not just them. And the reason they think that way is because most heterosexual members can’t control their sexual instincts any more than homosexuals.

It is a jungle out there.
It reminds me of the statement in the Bible " If it werent for God’s mercy even the elect would be deceived." (paraphrased)

 

[sparkielee]

Good point. Chastity has been greatly understated. I don’t think that many homosexuals realize that the Church calls all members to be chaste, not just them. And the reason they think that way is because most heterosexual members can’t control their sexual instincts any more than homosexuals.

I agree. All of us are asked to be chaste-not just gays. If you are not married whether you’re a priest, religious, a single layperson, a gay man, a lesbian, bisexual, or straight, God wants you to abstain from sex.

And if you’re married your sexual activity is only between you and your spouse and must be open to producing children. And neither artificial birth control nor sexual activity between 2 men or 2 women are open to producing children.

-sparkie

 

[Bluegoat]

Good point. Chastity has been greatly understated. I don’t think that many homosexuals realize that the Church calls all members to be chaste, not just them. And the reason they think that way is because most heterosexual members can’t control their sexual instincts any more than homosexuals.

I think this is an area that gets ignored, and is in fact outright denied by many married people. They are married, they have a right to have sex whenever they want!

This is an area that is rather more clear, in practice, in the Orthodox Church, IMO, because they take fasting and abstinence so seriously. Even married couples are required to refrain from sexual activity very frequently.

I’m also not sure it is a good idea for those who find themselves consistently attracted to those of the same gender to constantly and endlessly work and pray for that to be lifted from them. I have seen this come to very bad ends in a number of cases, enough so that I think the principle is suspect. Better perhaps to accept that you have a special burden, figure out what do do with it, and move on.