OK to Break the Law to fight Abortion, or not?

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Tantum_ergo said:
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So I do think that it WOULD be better to get the LAW into place in order to STOP THE KILLING, and let the ‘convincing’ come afterward.
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I am pretty confident that this will NEVER happen in America.

As Catholics, we need to vote.
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estesbob said:
No one voted in Roe V wade-it was imposed on us by judical fiat. And it is specious to say we need to educate people that killing their children is wrong. we need to continue vote for those who will put pro-life judges on the bench and we need to NEVER< NEVER< NEVER buy into the myth that we can end abotion by “ecducating people”
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The myth? So your solution is to simply ban it? Forgive me if I’m mistaken, but as I recall, people had abortions (and continue to have abortions) even in places where they are legal. So banning it would probably be just as effective at ceasing abortion as banning alcohol during prohibition.

I fail to see how you can call education a myth. The objective needs to be making people feel moral responsibility for the life within them, not making them feel they will go to jail if they don’t.

Afterall, even if abortion were illegal, you’d only be a round of shots at the local bar from doing it yourself. So I hardly can consider education a myth.
 
Sailboat said:
OK, someone mentioned this on my other thread. Is it okay to break the law in order to prevent abortion or undermine abortion providers’ ability to do abortions? For instance, can you damage their car so they can’t go to work? Or hack into their website and disrupt it? I’m talking about things less dramatic than firebombing their clinic or assassinating abortion doctors.

What do you all think of this question?
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Seems to me that if we actually STOPPED accepting abortion as “normal” and started expecting women to be MORE responsible and stopped offering them a whole world of “sympathy” we could end this a whole lot faster!

Instead, we are supposed to believe that women are too stupid to know what causes pregnancy…or that we are simply unable to control our “sexual” drive and like animals just can’t “help” ourselves…or that we should be allowed to be as selfish as we deem, doing whatever we please without THINKING, simply cause it “feels good!”

How about actually making women FEEL BADLY for the horrible crimes they commit? Oh no…making anyone feel “guilty” about their wrong doings today is NOT accepted…I forgot! :rolleyes:

Sigh…guilt is a wonderful thing…but the liberals of today have us believing that its “not fair” to cause another to “feel bad” about their behavior or about the pain they may inflict on others…oh no…let’s not “offend”…sigh…

I for one…am not going to one day find myself standing in front of Christ trying to explain to Him…that “I was too worried about “offending” my neighbor when he/she was about to commit heinous sin…so instead I thought I would “offend” You!”

Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat
 
The OP asks an important question. Pro-lifers need to consider… is abortion the cold blooded murder of an innocent baby? If so (I do believe so)… maybe our actions should become more aligned with our views, so as to avoid hypocrisy.

On the other hand, if it was indeed OK to, example, violently fight abortion via burning abortion clinics down (without people in them) or giving the doctors flat tires; then that would in a way constitute a war. But for a war to be morally persmissible in catholic teaching, it must be a JUST war. For a war to be classified as just, there must be a reasonable chance of winning.

So now, we must decide whether or not burning abortion clinics (or whatever unlawful means) provides us pro-lifers a reasonable shot at achieving our goal. To be honest, it doesn’t. So for now I’d have to say that we should not break the law to fight abortion, unless of course the law itself becomes so ridiculous that it completely inhibits our first amendment rights.
 

I do not believe that the primary reason for getting an abortion is because of ignorance or desperation. The main reason is selfishness!!! Pray for them.
george​

QUOTE=trogiah;1513039]As I read through these discussions on abortion (and testimonials by people who have experienced abortions) and what can/should be done to prevent abortions, I have become more and more convinced of the following:

Abortions don’t happen primarily because there are people who are willing to provide them. They happen because a woman finds herself pregnant and, either out of ignorance or desperation, seeks to end the pregnancy. Addressing those causes is what will end abortion. Education about the truth of when life begins (which has already been mentioned) will cure ignorance. Assisting a woman who is in truly desperate circumstances will help stave off despair. Bombing abortion clinics or damaging abortionists cars are wrong, not only for the reasons stated above but because they will be of little, if any, effectiveness in ending abortion. They most they could accomplish would be to drive it underground, which will only make it more difficult to address the ignorance and desperation of those who are seeking abortions.

A law that prohibits attempts to educate or assist people who are seeking abortions would be laws that breaking would seem the right thing to do.

Jim
 
MariaG said:
Yes, but even in this thread there was one who could not see the evil in firebombing an empty abortion clinic because of the good it would be doing in stopping abortions. It needs to VERY clear to all that these actions cannont be condoned in anyway, “for the greater good”.

I did not mean to imply in anyway that the responsible and passionate people, like you, involved in this fight in anyway endorse this, which is one of the reasons I asked you to clarify your position lest a few here think that you were endorsing any means possible in this fight for the lives of children.

God Bless,
Maria
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We need to avoid the notion that it is the firebombing itself that is wrong. No! It is the fact that it is useless that is wrong; not that it would be unjustified were it useful.

It is useless because another will immediately be built; because there are so many other clinics a woman can go (and she’s got plenty of time to find one); because violence against abortion clinics will not work in this country to change the reality of abortion.

If conditions were different… perhaps, if abortion required some special machine, and only 5 existed; the option of firebombing the clinics housing them (when no one was in them) would probably be morally permissible, maybe even obliged.
 
goofyjim said:
That about sums it up.
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This is only true if the act itself is an intrinsic form of evil (such as the abortion itself). The act of burning a building is not an intrinsic evil, though.

Read up on The Doctrine of Double Effect as described by Aquinas. It’s very insightful.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
I am sorry but you cannot equate helping a slave escape unjust slavery with icepicking a car. You aren’t keeping the person from doing his job so you aren’t ‘saving a life.’
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Now if the woman were kidnapped and hidden away, that would be equivelent to helping a slave escape unjust slavery. Helping the baby escape a grisly murder.
And killing or torturing or imprisoning abortionists is just as evil as abortion itself is.
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Murder doesn’t justify murder, or rather two wrongs don’t make a right.
The ends do not justify the means.
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Depends what the ends are and what the means are. End - Heroically save someones life. Means - Remove baby from crime scene. It would appear the ends justify the means when considering moral gravity.
 
I have seen responses saying that it is never acceptable to do something evil for a good cause. Is that always the case? What if the good outweighs the evil?

I mean, the Church teaches that war can be justified under certain conditions, but war is intrinsically evil, isn’t it? Or does the justification render it not evil?

So if we were to do something that is normally “evil,” but for a just reason, would that render it not evil? Would slashing the tires of an abortionist’s car no longer be evil because it is for a greater good?
 
buckr02 said:
I have seen responses saying that it is never acceptable to do something evil for a good cause. Is that always the case? What if the good outweighs the evil?

I mean, the Church teaches that war can be justified under certain conditions, but war is intrinsically evil, isn’t it? Or does the justification render it not evil?

So if we were to do something that is normally “evil,” but for a just reason, would that render it not evil? Would slashing the tires of an abortionist’s car no longer be evil because it is for a greater good?
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Nothing intrinsically evil can ever be justified. This **is **the Catholic teaching.

Killing is not intrinsically evil, so war can be justified. Slashing a tire is not intrinsically evil, so doing it could be justified.

On the other hand, something like abortion is intrinsically evil. It cannot be justified. Adultery is intrinsically evil. Desiring the damnation of others is intrinsically evil.
 
According to the Church’s view war can be justified, when it is the case of a defensive war. Even an offensive war can be justified under certain conditions (though I agree in practice most offensive wars in modern times are unjust aggression).
When evil is the cause of something good, it can never be justified. But when evil is not intended but is incidental, an action can be justified. One example is the death of an unborn child. Aiming at killing an unborn child is unjustified. But in the case of a woman’s cancerous womb, the womb can be removed, even though there is the result that is unintentional of killing the baby there.
 
mdgspencer said:
But in the case of a woman’s cancerous womb, the womb can be removed, even though there is the result that is unintentional of killing the baby there.
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Is that true? That would seem to me the same as saying a woman may have an abortion if her life is at risk, which I am fairly certain is not allowed.
 
I will just continue with this this once, since if we continue, the best thing to do would be to start a new thread on this new topic.
The effort to save her life is not an abortion. In fact, having an abortion would not save her life. She is having a cancerous womb removed. The goal is not an abortion.
 
Post 25 Helgasdog.

What is the church’s stance on self defense? I know in secular law, if self-defense is proven, there is no penalty.?
 
Yes it is OK. An unjust law is no law at all. Abortion being legal is not only unjust but is evil.

If you knew someone was being killed inside a building would you have a moral obligatin to try and prevent it? Yes you would. You know babies are being literally torn apart inside those abortion mills and every one of us has an ohbligation to try and stop it. If your Mother, Father, Sister, Brother or your own child was being murdered what would you do? Stand by and do nothing, call you congressman, wait for an election and hope, maybe just pray? I doubt it, and I would hope not.

While you can’t kill an abortionist on his way to work it would be justifiable to stop him while he was begining the procedure, just as it would be ok to stop a mugger on the street who was getting ready to kill someone.

The problem is what will happen when you go to jail. Who will take your place? Is it best for the movement? If enough people were sick of abortion and willing to get arrested that every day in every clinic someone would go in and stop the Doctor even though he knew he would get arrested then abortons would stop. The problem is that we don’t have that type of commitment. People aren’t willing to make that kind of sacrafice. If people were it would end and quickly.

Just to be clear I do not mean killing when I say stopping. Breaking a law that protects abortionists is not breaking any law that matters.

This is the greatest evil of our time and we will be judged by what we do --or don’t do-- to oppose it. Jesus said "‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ and "‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’

We are all going to have to answer the question "Where were you when I was aborted? What did you do to try and stop it?

God bless
 
ToHimthroughher said:
Yes it is OK. An unjust law is no law at all. Abortion being legal is not only unjust but is evil.

If you knew someone was being killed inside a building would you have a moral obligatin to try and prevent it? Yes you would. You know babies are being literally torn apart inside those abortion mills and every one of us has an ohbligation to try and stop it. If your Mother, Father, Sister, Brother or your own child was being murdered what would you do? Stand by and do nothing, call you congressman, wait for an election and hope, maybe just pray? I doubt it, and I would hope not.

While you can’t kill an abortionist on his way to work it would be justifiable to stop him while he was begining the procedure, just as it would be ok to stop a mugger on the street who was getting ready to kill someone.

The problem is what will happen when you go to jail. Who will take your place? Is it best for the movement? If enough people were sick of abortion and willing to get arrested that every day in every clinic someone would go in and stop the Doctor even though he knew he would get arrested then abortons would stop. The problem is that we don’t have that type of commitment. People aren’t willing to make that kind of sacrafice. If people were it would end and quickly.

Just to be clear I do not mean killing when I say stopping. Breaking a law that protects abortionists is not breaking any law that matters.

This is the greatest evil of our time and we will be judged by what we do --or don’t do-- to oppose it. Jesus said "‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ and "‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’

We are all going to have to answer the question "Where were you when I was aborted? What did you do to try and stop it?

God bless
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Well said!! I know I am not willing to face our Lord and say, “I am sorry, I didn’t want to offend my fellow bretheren, so I said nothing and did nothing to stop the intrinsic evil that slaughtered so many innocents…instead I decided to offend YOU by my inaction and lack of outrage!”

Yea…that’s NOT gonna be me!!
 
I think its ok to fight for abortion regarding the fact that it is an injustice and martin luther king gave 5 reasons that create an ethical means of civil disobedience and that should be allowed 👍
 
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