OK to Break the Law to fight Abortion, or not?

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OK, someone mentioned this on my other thread. Is it okay to break the law in order to prevent abortion or undermine abortion providers’ ability to do abortions? For instance, can you damage their car so they can’t go to work? Or hack into their website and disrupt it? I’m talking about things less dramatic than firebombing their clinic or assassinating abortion doctors.

What do you all think of this question?
 
It is never permissible to do evil, even in order to bring about a good. (IOW, the ends don’t justify the means.)
 
true but although it is a stretch, can you not call it self defense or protecting the lives of an innocent?
 
No, not even by a stretch.

Any LAWFUL means can and indeed MUST be used to protect the innocent. . .any UNLAWFUL means may not.

Now, one could argue that slaves were frequently hidden (unlawfully) from their masters by abolitionists. However, chattel slavery is against the natural law, and laws which upheld chattel slavery were unjust even if they were legal.

The laws which protect property and life are, however, both just and legal laws, and may not be abrogated. There is no such thing as a law which is just for only CERTAIN people (i.e., meaning it’s okay to destroy property of abortionists, murderers, thieves, heretics, nonChristians, etc. etc. simply because they are what they are.)
 
Tantum_ergo said:
It is never permissible to do evil, even in order to bring about a good. (IOW, the ends don’t justify the means.)
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Now, that’s a load of rubbish. Plenty of innocent people got bombed to death in World War Two for the sake of stopping fascism - if bombing families to death isn’t evil, nothing is.

If babies are people and are in danger of death, then unless you’re arguing that the law is more valuable than human life, those babies’ lives should be defensible by any means any one else’s life is, whether by the person attacked or by anyone capable of rendering assistance.

The law is not morality. If it were legal for the police to execute street people, it would be morally justified to kill death squads on sight. Those police officers’ lives would be forfeit.

By the way, the ends certainly do justify the means. Three words prove this:

“Surgery on children”
 
the ends do in fact justify the means but that doesn’t mean it was morally right.
 
You are testy, helga, and you are also attempting an argument based on feelings or emotions. You seem to be doing this quite a bit on other threads you have started–perhaps you would like to address them as well? Perhaps you would like to take some time to consider, without defensiveness or ‘what-ifs’, what I said and to make an argument as to why, IN DEFIANCE OF CHURCH TEACHING, you posit that it WOULD be morally allowable to do an evil in order to achieve good. And back it up with Catholic doctrine that supports your contention. Thank you.
 
I know of plenty of good, faithful priests, nuns and religious, even some bishops who now have rap sheets–because they were protesting in front of abortion clinics. They did not do any physical damage to anyone’s property, just peacefully praying and holding signs. They called it harassment and arrested them. I don’t think that was wrong at all. Of course, it was a peaceful protest. The things you mentioned were all clearly illegal. There is a difference.
 
To support my contention I submit this directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means.

God bless.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
To support my contention I submit this directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

1759 “An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means.

God bless.
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So, where do you draw the line? What about peaceful protesters who get arrested? Is it okay to harrass a doctor on the sidewalk of his home with signs? Is icepicking an abortion doctor’s car evil.

What about underground workers who fought communism or the Nazis? They were breaking the law. Do you think they were doing evil?
 
Sailboat, it is not about where I personally ‘draw the line’; it is about what we as Catholics are TAUGHT.

Your original post asked if it was morally okay to damage someone’s property in order to make it I suppose more difficult for them to do their job–a hideous job I agree.

It is NOT okay, because laws which protect property protect the just and the unjust (morally speaking) equally.

God HIMSELF tells us that he sends the sun and the rain on the just and unjust alike.

I gave the relevent citation from the Catechism.

I already answered your other question. Did you not read what I said about slavery?

I am sorry but you cannot equate helping a slave escape unjust slavery with icepicking a car. You aren’t keeping the person from doing his job so you aren’t ‘saving a life.’ And killing or torturing or imprisoning abortionists is just as evil as abortion itself is.

The ends do not justify the means.
 
My take on it is a little different…

Personally I wouldn’t see anything wrong with say, burning an abortion clinic to the ground, so long as no one is in it at the time. I’m not saying “Do it!” or anything. I just don’t see how this would be an evil act in any sense of the term. I mean if you look at it from a certain prespective you might even be Preventing the abortion provider from sinning… I, personally, just don’t see how this is evil.

Catholig
 
Tantum_ergo said:
You are testy, helga, and you are also attempting an argument based on feelings or emotions. You seem to be doing this quite a bit on other threads you have started–perhaps you would like to address them as well? Perhaps you would like to take some time to consider, without defensiveness or ‘what-ifs’, what I said and to make an argument as to why, IN DEFIANCE OF CHURCH TEACHING, you posit that it WOULD be morally allowable to do an evil in order to achieve good. And back it up with Catholic doctrine that supports your contention. Thank you.
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So, you think it’s groovy that we bombed all those German potato farmers in World War Two?
 
Our troops are involved in a very violent response in order to “restrain evil”. What is the difference?

Was it right to shoot a German soldier to free an innocent concentration camp inmate?

Can you commit violence to save your daughter from an intruder?

If someone wanted to take your baby from the crib and kill it, would that justify a violent response?

Is a fetus a baby, with all the rights and privileges of personhood enjoyed by infants in their cribs?

I abhor violence but these issues are not so cut and dried.

For the record, I am against violence in response to abortion. (Although sucking a baby piece by piece into a jar is one of the most violent acts ever committed by one human being on another.)
 
Helga you are coming perilously close to crossing the line here. In fact some of those German potato farmers were my kith and kin!!

I wonder that you cavilierly pose this uncharitable ‘assumption’ of my morality simply because I give you the AUTHENTIC CATHOLIC TEACHING supported by the Catechism?

I weep daily for those who have suffered death and loss. War is a dreadful evil, even a ‘just’ war, and once again I reiterate “The end does NOT justify the means.”
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Helga you are coming perilously close to crossing the line here. In fact some of those German potato farmers were my kith and kin!!

I wonder that you cavilierly pose this uncharitable ‘assumption’ of my morality simply because I give you the AUTHENTIC CATHOLIC TEACHING supported by the Catechism?

I weep daily for those who have suffered death and loss. War is a dreadful evil, even a ‘just’ war, and once again I reiterate “The end does NOT justify the means.”
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Then perhaps you’d like to answer in terms of that authentic Catholic teaching regarding whether bombing farmers in their fields for the sake of a just war is morally acceptable. And, if it is, how using various expeditious means to thwart the operation of abortion clinics is not.
 
Catholig said:
My take on it is a little different…

Personally I wouldn’t see anything wrong with say, burning an abortion clinic to the ground, so long as no one is in it at the time. I’m not saying “Do it!” or anything. I just don’t see how this would be an evil act in any sense of the term. I mean if you look at it from a certain prespective you might even be Preventing the abortion provider from sinning… I, personally, just don’t see how this is evil.

Catholig
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No, I think that arson has the potential to endanger the lives of innocent firefighters. Not a good plan.😦
 
Sailboat how can arson endanger the lives of fire fighters? They only go into the building if there is someone to rescue right? If its in the middle of the night and no one is in need of saving all they’d be required to do is bring their fire truck up and dowse it (the building) with water. Not go inside…

Catholig
 
Catholig said:
Sailboat how can arson endanger the lives of fire fighters? They only go into the building if there is someone to rescue right? If its in the middle of the night and no one is in need of saving all they’d be required to do is bring their fire truck up and dowse it (the building) with water. Not go inside…

Catholig
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Arson can, however, endanger innocents by spreading to other buildings and trees. Fire is not a cut and dried affair.
 
I’d say this is a really fine line. And the ultimate answer would have to come from God.

I do not believe that burning, bombing, killing, stabbing or anything like that is the way to go. I don’t think bombing an abortion clinic is the way to do it.

However, would I harass an abortion doctor? Depends on your definition. I wouldn’t call them every five minutes starting at midnight and ending at 7am. That to me would be pointless.

Would I notify the state of violations within the facility and have state inspectors combing the place every month? Sure.

Would I set about campaigns to have his/her medical license revoked? Sure

I think the issue at hand here is what “end” result is justifying the means. I saw an Hiroshima reference a few posts up. We bombed Hiroshima, it effectively ended the war. Is harassing a doctor or blowing up a clinic going to end abortion? No, it will close down one place (which is insured) and two more will spring up in its place. Call the doctor all night long, leave threatening messages for their kids and what will that result in? The same thing that this muslim aggression is resulting in. We see our Pope say that he is right, he is on the side of peace, the muslims react with violence. For us to harass or threaten a Doctor, this justifies their position, even if just in the minds of their children.

So I think the ends could well justify the means, however, you need to look at how effective the end is going to be.
 
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