OK to Break the Law to fight Abortion, or not?

[Tantum_ergo]

Helga I have given you my answer but apparently you refuse to accept it.

It is NEVER permissible to do evil in order that good may result.

Apparently you think that there are occasions where this teaching may be abrogated. Again I state that you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with authentic, documented Catholic teaching. That is, of course, your free choice to do so.

 

[Sailboat]

Sailboat how can arson endanger the lives of fire fighters? They only go into the building if there is someone to rescue right? If its in the middle of the night and no one is in need of saving all they’d be required to do is bring their fire truck up and dowse it (the building) with water. Not go inside…

Catholig

There was a case in Seattle, about 12 years ago. The son of a wealthy Chinese immigrant burned down his father’s warehouse, which had no people in it. I think he did it for the insurance if I recall. 4 firefighters were killed fighting the blaze. The suspect fled to Brazil, where he was hunted down and extridited. He was convicted of murder and is still in prison I’m sure.

So, it’s never okay to start a fire, it has the potential to spread and it can hurt innocent firefighters.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

OK, someone mentioned this on my other thread. Is it okay to break the law in order to prevent abortion or undermine abortion providers’ ability to do abortions? For instance, can you damage their car so they can’t go to work? Or hack into their website and disrupt it? I’m talking about things less dramatic than firebombing their clinic or assassinating abortion doctors.

What do you all think of this question?

It is perfectly possible to oppose it by means which are not only legal, but ( what is even more important) are also moral - therefore, it is completely wrong to resort immoral or illegal ones. If we could not oppose it without breaking the law by virtue of opposing it, that would be a different moral situation. But we are not in that situation; it is possibly to act against abortion, without breaking the law.​

It may be worth emphasising that what is legal is not always moral; just as what is moral is not all of it enacted into law. They are two separate and fluctuating categories which to some extent overlap.

As to the examples given: driving, and using a computer, are both too remote from enabling, causing, or performing an abortion, to be appropriate means of avoiding abortions. Both activities are legal, & neither is directly immoral - at worst, they can be proximate occasions of sin. And it is not always sinful, though it is always dangerous, to go into a situation in which one will be in a proximate occasion of sin. Cars & computers belonging to those who provide abortions can be used for morally neutral or morally good purposes, so it would be wrong to destroy or damage them.

Short answer to each of the three questions:

• No
• No
• No
  Hope that helps ##

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Then perhaps you’d like to answer in terms of that authentic Catholic teaching regarding whether bombing farmers in their fields for the sake of a just war is morally acceptable. And, if it is, how using various expeditious means to thwart the operation of abortion clinics is not.

Bombing non-combatants is absolutely wrong, no matter who does it, no matter what the justifications given. It’s wrong for the Kaiser to have allowed it during WW1, it’s wrong for Franco to have used it against Guernica, it’s wrong for Hitler to do it to Warsaw during WW2, it’s wrong for it to be done to German cities in the same war, and it’s wrong for Clinton & Blair & Bush to do it in the Balkans & Iraq. Ditto Hiroshima & Nagasaki at the end of WW2.​

Bombing non-combatants is always immoral:

2312 The Church and human reason both assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflict. "The mere fact that war has regrettably broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties."109

2313 Non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely.

Actions deliberately contrary to the law of nations and to its universal principles are crimes, as are the orders that command such actions. Blind obedience does not suffice to excuse those who carry them out. Thus the extermination of a people, nation, or ethnic minority must be condemned as a mortal sin. One is morally bound to resist orders that command genocide.

2314 "Every act of war directed to the indiscriminate destruction of whole cities or vast areas with their inhabitants is a crime against God and man, which merits firm and unequivocal condemnation."110 A danger of modern warfare is that it provides the opportunity to those who possess modern scientific weapons especially atomic, biological, or chemical weapons - to commit such crimes.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a5.htm

emphasis mine]

 

[thistle]

Helga I have given you my answer but apparently you refuse to accept it.

It is NEVER permissible to do evil in order that good may result.

Apparently you think that there are occasions where this teaching may be abrogated. Again I state that you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with authentic, documented Catholic teaching. That is, of course, your free choice to do so.

I totally agree with you.

It might be of course that helgasdogs doesn’t care about the teachings of our Church. I notice in her profile under religion is only n/a. Usually a Catholic is happy to state they are Catholic.

 

[helgasdogs]

I totally agree with you.

It might be of course that helgasdogs doesn’t care about the teachings of our Church. I notice in her profile under religion is only n/a. Usually a Catholic is happy to state they are Catholic.

I have to say, if someone came to kill me, and their intent was not to stop me from hurting someone else but simply to kill me for the sake of their beliefs, I would kill them to survive, using any means available. And if more of them kept coming, I would keep killing them. And if I could I would enlist anyone else possible, to assist me.

I value the Church for its tradition of thought, but it is one of many. It is exceptional because it is the largest and Western and therefore an implicit ally in the defense of Western Civilization.

 

[mommyof4]

Personally, I don’t think it is right to do anyone harm, even if your intentions are “right.” Don’t get me wrong, I’m very opposed to abortion, but I absolutly draw the line at physically harming someone or their property in order to prevent an abortion.

My 2 brief solutions:

1. Pray A LOT for an end to abortion;
2. Educate, educate, educate

 

[Island_Oak]

So, where do you draw the line? What about peaceful protesters who get arrested? Is it okay to harrass a doctor on the sidewalk of his home with signs? Is icepicking an abortion doctor’s car evil.

Just wondering what your goal is in attempting this mayhem? Attracting people to your message…opening their ears, eyes, minds and hearts to your position…affecting and maybe even changing some assumptions they have about abortion and its opponents…enlightening them to the horror that is abortion…convincing them that your position is not only intellectually and morally defensible, but superior to chosing abortion…

If you want to attract, persuade, work for change and maybe even save lives–avoid destructive, hateful, vindictive acting-out. It makes you look like a 2 year old, diminishes the seriousness with which you will be taken and obfuscates the issue about which you feel so passionately.

 

[estesbob]

OK, someone mentioned this on my other thread. Is it okay to break the law in order to prevent abortion or undermine abortion providers’ ability to do abortions? For instance, can you damage their car so they can’t go to work? Or hack into their website and disrupt it? I’m talking about things less dramatic than firebombing their clinic or assassinating abortion doctors.

What do you all think of this question?

No-NEVER. In addiotn to doing evil to fight evil(never acceptable) its gives ammunition to those who promote abortion to attack those who oppose it.

 

[Sailboat]

Just wondering what your goal is in attempting this mayhem? Attracting people to your message…opening their ears, eyes, minds and hearts to your position…affecting and maybe even changing some assumptions they have about abortion and its opponents…enlightening them to the horror that is abortion…convincing them that your position is not only intellectually and morally defensible, but superior to chosing abortion…

If you want to attract, persuade, work for change and maybe even save lives–avoid destructive, hateful, vindictive acting-out. It makes you look like a 2 year old, diminishes the seriousness with which you will be taken and obfuscates the issue about which you feel so passionately.

Wow, that’s a pretty scathing post. Is it that time of the month, or what?

I was bringing up a hypothetical philosophical question for the sake of discussion. This IS a disscussion site, correct?

 

[TimOliv]

Just wondering what your goal is in attempting this mayhem? Attracting people to your message…opening their ears, eyes, minds and hearts to your position…affecting and maybe even changing some assumptions they have about abortion and its opponents…enlightening them to the horror that is abortion…convincing them that your position is not only intellectually and morally defensible, but superior to chosing abortion…

If you want to attract, persuade, work for change and maybe even save lives–avoid destructive, hateful, vindictive acting-out. It makes you look like a 2 year old, diminishes the seriousness with which you will be taken and obfuscates the issue about which you feel so passionately.

You know, acting like you hold the key to enlightenment and the secrets of the universe also diminishes the seriousness in which you will be taken and obfuscates the issue about which you feel so passionately. But, it DOES prove that you are capable of using a thesaurus. I give it an “A” for effort.

 

[phantom]

I believe it was wrong to bomb the potatoe farmers in WWII, but the sin was not with the soldiers who dropped the bombs if they were just following orders. I believe it is wrong to break the law to do damage to abortion clinics or their employees. I don’t think it was a sin to hide slaves or refugees whose lives were endangered. I do believe that the ends NEVER justify the means and I believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ proves it. Would it have been better for Jesus to have stayed here with us rather than die on the cross? Yes, but not if it meant he would have to contradict his own teachings to avoid the cross. He refused to use the good he could have done teaching and leading us here on earth as justification for contradicting his teachings and avoiding the cross. The ends Never justify the means.

 

[Flopfoot]

I think there is some slight misunderstanding of the question here.

The question is clearly stated in the thread title - “is it okay to break the law to fight abortion?” Not “is it okay to do evil to fight abortion”. As has been state, it’s not okay to do evil for any reason. However, breaking the law is not always wrong. It is not wrong in the case where the law goes against God.

Now pretty much anything stopping us from fighting abortion is going against God, so we are fairly safe enough in ignoring whatever laws we want to. However, we must be careful, because some actions are not only potentially wrong for being against the law, but are wrong for another reason. For example, sabotaging an abortionist’s car so that he can’t go to work is not only against the law but is against the 7th commandment (thou shalt not steal) because you are damaging someone else’s property, hence this action is still wrong.

The only ‘illegal’ actions we can take when fighting abortion are the ones which are not against God in themselves. For example, standing in the doorway of the clinic so that no one can easily get in, and refusing to move when asked, is against the law, but as far as I know is not a sin.

 

[Sailboat]

I think there is some slight misunderstanding of the question here.

The question is clearly stated in the thread title - “is it okay to break the law to fight abortion?” Not “is it okay to do evil to fight abortion”. As has been state, it’s not okay to do evil for any reason. However, breaking the law is not always wrong. It is not wrong in the case where the law goes against God.

Now pretty much anything stopping us from fighting abortion is going against God, so we are fairly safe enough in ignoring whatever laws we want to. However, we must be careful, because some actions are not only potentially wrong for being against the law, but are wrong for another reason. For example, sabotaging an abortionist’s car so that he can’t go to work is not only against the law but is against the 7th commandment (thou shalt not steal) because you are damaging someone else’s property, hence this action is still wrong.

The only ‘illegal’ actions we can take when fighting abortion are the ones which are not against God in themselves. For example, standing in the doorway of the clinic so that no one can easily get in, and refusing to move when asked, is against the law, but as far as I know is not a sin.

Thanks for such a sensible answer. This thread is a spin off from another thread, where the subject came up. I’ve been told by mods here to start a new thread for a new subject, and I found this one an interesting dilenma

 

[Island_Oak]

Wow, that’s a pretty scathing post. Is it that time of the month, or what?

Scathing?!? And this from an ice-pick-wielding vigilante?! Surely you jest! Had I gone for scathing–so inappropriate on this Forum–you would still be sizzling.
":

I was bringing up a hypothetical philosophical question for the sake of discussion. This IS a disscussion site, correct?

Your “hypothetical” seemed pretty specific, not to mention misdirected–but we’ll go with hypothetical if you prefer. The POINT of my post was to ask you to think about what you hoped to accomplish (hardly an attack on you and applicable to hypothetical or real-life) and point out that you transform yourself from an advocate into a terrorist when you have to rely upon violence to make your point. Is that hostile…or a truth?

You know, acting like you hold the key to enlightenment and the secrets of the universe also diminishes the seriousness in which you will be taken and obfuscates the issue about which you feel so passionately.

Huh? Everyone knows my “Secrets of the Universe” days are Fridays, not Thursdays.

But, it DOES prove that you are capable of using a thesaurus. I give it an “A” for effort.

It’s called an education–readily available and nothing to be intimidated by.

 

[trogiah]

As I read through these discussions on abortion (and testimonials by people who have experienced abortions) and what can/should be done to prevent abortions, I have become more and more convinced of the following:

Abortions don’t happen primarily because there are people who are willing to provide them. They happen because a woman finds herself pregnant and, either out of ignorance or desperation, seeks to end the pregnancy. Addressing those causes is what will end abortion. Education about the truth of when life begins (which has already been mentioned) will cure ignorance. Assisting a woman who is in truly desperate circumstances will help stave off despair. Bombing abortion clinics or damaging abortionists cars are wrong, not only for the reasons stated above but because they will be of little, if any, effectiveness in ending abortion. They most they could accomplish would be to drive it underground, which will only make it more difficult to address the ignorance and desperation of those who are seeking abortions.

A law that prohibits attempts to educate or assist people who are seeking abortions would be laws that breaking would seem the right thing to do.

Jim

 

[mommyof4]

As I read through these discussions on abortion (and testimonials by people who have experienced abortions) and what can/should be done to prevent abortions, I have become more and more convinced of the following:

Abortions don’t happen primarily because there are people who are willing to provide them. They happen because a woman finds herself pregnant and, either out of ignorance or desperation, seeks to end the pregnancy. Addressing those causes is what will end abortion. Education about the truth of when life begins (which has already been mentioned) will cure ignorance. Assisting a woman who is in truly desperate circumstances will help stave off despair. Bombing abortion clinics or damaging abortionists cars are wrong, not only for the reasons stated above but because they will be of little, if any, effectiveness in ending abortion. They most they could accomplish would be to drive it underground, which will only make it more difficult to address the ignorance and desperation of those who are seeking abortions.

A law that prohibits attempts to educate or assist people who are seeking abortions would be laws that breaking would seem the right thing to do.

Jim

Yes! I agree.

 

[TimOliv]

It’s called an education–readily available and nothing to be intimidated by.

My dear, I have an education, as do many on this board. Thank you for proving a timeless truth.

You cannot teach class.

 

[manualman]

Wow, no comment on the vitriol, but if the original question were phrased “is it ever OK to break the law to fight against abortion?”

The answer is, OF COURSE it is. It is always OK to break unjust laws.
Helping slaves escape their ‘owners’ breakes nothing but an immoral civil law.
A black woman refusing to sit in the back of the bus broke an old civil law, but commited no sin.
Protestors who non-violently block the entrance to an abortion clinic are convicted and go to jail, but have done nothng wrong.

HOWEVER, action aimed at stopping abortion that involves inherently immoral behavior that is ALSO against the law can’t be justified by the ends.

Vandalizing a car is wrong, even if it belongs to an abortionist.
Killing a slave owner out of revenge during an escape is wrong.
Committing arson is wrong, even if it is against an abortuary.

The fight against abortion is not a conventional war. We cannot win it with military action. If we even try, we lose the war since the public at large will see the violence and conclude that the perpetrators are the evil ones. Abortion must be stopped by exposing the truth of what it is to a people who have closed their eyes. Only heroic virtue can overcome this nearly invincible ignorance.

 

[Sailboat]

Well, well, Island Oak, you might have a great education, but you didn’t read my post very well, and your arrogent response is certainly uncalled for. I’ve certainly never intended to icepick anyones car. I’ve never even been involved in the pro-life movement, other than donating a little money to the pregnancy center.

I was bringing up examples of disrupting an abortion workers ability to get to work that were illegal, but fall short of bombing the clinic or assasinating them. Maybe you can contribute a different example? Those were just off of the top of my head.