OK to Break the Law to fight Abortion, or not?

[Sailboat]

Wow, no comment on the vitriol, but if the original question were phrased “is it ever OK to break the law to fight against abortion?”

The answer is, OF COURSE it is. It is always OK to break unjust laws.
Helping slaves escape their ‘owners’ breakes nothing but an immoral civil law.
A black woman refusing to sit in the back of the bus broke an old civil law, but commited no sin.
Protestors who non-violently block the entrance to an abortion clinic are convicted and go to jail, but have done nothng wrong.

HOWEVER, action aimed at stopping abortion that involves inherently immoral behavior that is ALSO against the law can’t be justified by the ends.

Vandalizing a car is wrong, even if it belongs to an abortionist.
Killing a slave owner out of revenge during an escape is wrong.
Committing arson is wrong, even if it is against an abortuary.

The fight against abortion is not a conventional war. We cannot win it with military action. If we even try, we lose the war since the public at large will see the violence and conclude that the perpetrators are the evil ones. Abortion must be stopped by exposing the truth of what it is to a people who have closed their eyes. Only heroic virtue can overcome this nearly invincible ignorance.

Thanks for the coherent response! Very well stated.

 

[estesbob]

As I read through these discussions on abortion (and testimonials by people who have experienced abortions) and what can/should be done to prevent abortions, I have become more and more convinced of the following:

Abortions don’t happen primarily because there are people who are willing to provide them. They happen because a woman finds herself pregnant and, either out of ignorance or desperation, seeks to end the pregnancy. Addressing those causes is what will end abortion. Education about the truth of when life begins (which has already been mentioned) will cure ignorance. Assisting a woman who is in truly desperate circumstances will help stave off despair. Bombing abortion clinics or damaging abortionists cars are wrong, not only for the reasons stated above but because they will be of little, if any, effectiveness in ending abortion. They most they could accomplish would be to drive it underground, which will only make it more difficult to address the ignorance and desperation of those who are seeking abortions.

A law that prohibits attempts to educate or assist people who are seeking abortions would be laws that breaking would seem the right thing to do.

Jim

You could not be more wrong. Abortions happens because of the coarsening of our Culture since the intoduction of the pill in the late 1960s . Read Humanae Vitae and you will see that the Pope laid out in great detail exactly how this was going to lead to higher abortion rates, higher illegitimacy and an overall slide in the respect for life. Abortion is NOT caused by poverty or other social conditions To say so gives aid and comfort to those who support this abject evil.

Abortion is cause by a culture that puts “me” first and denigrates the value of any life that incoveniences us. The FIRST step to ending abortion is for our Society to go on record that is very, very wrong and the best way to do this is ban it. Of course that wont end ALL abortion(nor has banning rape and murder eliminated those evils) but note that abortions increased 4 fold after it was leaglized in 1972-it increased 4 fold even on those States where it had already been legal. As a Society we MUST take a stand that abortion is WRONG. You dont do that via feel good programs and eduation-you do it by banning it.

 

[Island_Oak]

My dear, I have an education, as do many on this board. Thank you for proving a timeless truth.
You cannot teach class.

P’shaw, Brother Tim…'tis your calling, not my own, and I wouldn’t pretend to want it any other way!

And…a small suggestion from the humble laity…perhaps you want to familiarize yourself with the talent of shaking off offense “like water from a duck’s back”–a skill practiced with such aplomb by seasoned preachers of all stripes–when confronted with a challenge, daresay even an affront, to their sensibilities. I am but the tip of the iceberg in terms of the variety of styles you’ll likely encounter should you be fortunate enough to find yourself shepherding your own flock someday.

Best wishes on your continued seminary studies–such selfless dedication is in short supply these days.​

And Sailboat…just to economize on posts…I’ve given two substative responses to your inquiry. I am wearied by your inability/unwillingness to discern them and am giving up–save for seconding the post offered by trogiah.

 

[Sailboat]

My Dear Island,
Your utter lack of humility is awfully wearying as well. You really need a reality check, my dear. Also, your loud fonts reflect poorly on your obviously puffed up self image, old girl. Now be a good girl and get a grip on yourself, ok?

 

[Island_Oak]

Methinks you confuse poor eysight for lack of humility…but whatever…let the gripping begin!!

 

[E.E.N.S]

the ends do in fact justify the means but that doesn’t mean it was morally right.

You may only be half-right here. If you say the end justifies the means then by the smae note you could say that you have a moral obligation to do so. Let me use an example: If you were standing in your front yard and not far from you was a man holding an infant with a knife held to it’s throat, getting ready to kill the infant. Now if you had the ability to stop that man from killing the infant but it would most likely cost the life of the man to do so, and decided not to do it do you think that people (the law/ the public) would look at you in the same light that if you made the same decision about a couple going into the abortion mill? Absolutely not. Why? Because most people do not believe that abortion is murder. However, one could easily see that if you stood by and did nothing when is was fully within your power to stop the man holding the infant, though you wouldn’t go to jail, you would most certainly be looked negatively upon.

 

[E.E.N.S]

You could not be more wrong. Abortions happens because of the coarsening of our Culture since the intoduction of the pill in the late 1960s . Read Humanae Vitae and you will see that the Pope laid out in great detail exactly how this was going to lead to higher abortion rates, higher illegitimacy and an overall slide in the respect for life. Abortion is NOT caused by poverty or other social conditions To say so gives aid and comfort to those who support this abject evil.

Abortion is cause by a culture that puts “me” first and denigrates the value of any life that incoveniences us. The FIRST step to ending abortion is for our Society to go on record that is very, very wrong and the best way to do this is ban it. Of course that wont end ALL abortion(nor has banning rape and murder eliminated those evils) but note that abortions increased 4 fold after it was leaglized in 1972-it increased 4 fold even on those States where it had already been legal. As a Society we MUST take a stand that abortion is WRONG. You dont do that via feel good programs and eduation-you do it by banning it.

I second that.

 

[mdgspencer]

It is traditional in Catholic moral theology to say that a starving person can steal a loaf of bread. So simply to say that laws that protect property cannot be broken is not correct.
And so someone could not dismiss the person’s action of stealing a loaf of bread as being an evil action that cannot justify the good effect, which is of saving his life.
That is precisely what he is allow to do morally.

The previous poster said:
It is NOT okay, because laws which protect property protect the just and the unjust (morally speaking) equally.

God HIMSELF tells us that he sends the sun and the rain on the just and unjust alike.

I gave the relevent citation from the Catechism.

I already answered your other question. Did you not read what I said about slavery?

I am sorry but you cannot equate helping a slave escape unjust slavery with icepicking a car. You aren’t keeping the person from doing his job so you aren’t ‘saving a life.’ And killing or torturing or imprisoning abortionists is just as evil as abortion itself is.

The ends do not justify the means.

 

[Julianna]

As I read through these discussions on abortion (and testimonials by people who have experienced abortions) and what can/should be done to prevent abortions, I have become more and more convinced of the following:

Abortions don’t happen primarily because there are people who are willing to provide them. They happen because a woman finds herself pregnant and, either out of ignorance or desperation, seeks to end the pregnancy. Addressing those causes is what will end abortion. Education about the truth of when life begins (which has already been mentioned) will cure ignorance. Assisting a woman who is in truly desperate circumstances will help stave off despair. Bombing abortion clinics or damaging abortionists cars are wrong, not only for the reasons stated above but because they will be of little, if any, effectiveness in ending abortion. They most they could accomplish would be to drive it underground, which will only make it more difficult to address the ignorance and desperation of those who are seeking abortions.

A law that prohibits attempts to educate or assist people who are seeking abortions would be laws that breaking would seem the right thing to do.

Jim

Jim,
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
Most intelligent posting on this thread so far.

Sailboat…get therapy.

 

[estesbob]

Jim,
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
Most intelligent posting on this thread so far.

Sailboat…get therapy.

Hes dead wrong-and your comments to Sailboat are uncalled for.

 

[TimOliv]

Jim,
:clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
Most intelligent posting on this thread so far.

Sailboat…get therapy.

Completely uncalled for. Sailboat just wants to start a discussion (this is a forum afterall). Sailboat has neither advocated nor promoted any violence or illegal activity. This is simply a discussion regarding various hypothetical situations and their would-be moral implications.

 

[Julianna]

Hes dead wrong-and your comments to Sailboat are uncalled for.

it was my OPINION… …I will state it… …just as you have the right to speak yours.

I am sure Jim will lose alot of sleep over your comments, as Sailboat will over mine.

 

[TimOliv]

it was my OPINION… …I will state it… …just as you have the right to speak yours.

I am sure Jim will lose alot of sleep over your comments, as Sailboat will over mine.

Yeah well…you’re a doo-doo head.

(Just kidding, I just thought it would be funny to try a good ol’ pre-school arguement in an adult conversation…ignore me…)

 

[Julianna]

Completely uncalled for. Sailboat just wants to start a discussion (this is a forum afterall). Sailboat has neither advocated nor promoted any violence or illegal activity. This is simply a discussion regarding various hypothetical situations and their would-be moral implications.

I know it was hypothetical…maybe I should have put next to it… I couldn’t find a smiley that read (sarcasm).

regarding his hypothetical…IMHO…making sure it’s just MY OPINION…it’s not a good idea.

 

[TimOliv]

I know it was hypothetical…maybe I should have put next to it… I couldn’t find a smiley that read (sarcasm).

regarding his hypothetical…IMHO…making sure it’s just MY OPINION…it’s not a good idea.

All righty then, we’re all pretty much in agreement that we shouldn’t go flipping cars or burning trash cans outside of abortion clinics. Hmmm…you guys wanna order some chinese?

 

[Julianna]

All righty then, we’re all pretty much in agreement that we shouldn’t go flipping cars or burning trash cans outside of abortion clinics. Hmmm…you guys wanna order some chinese?

its almost 9:00 here…not a good idea this late. Rain check on that. Tim…I love ya…but you’re breakin my heart over here…

 

[Sailboat]

Completely uncalled for. Sailboat just wants to start a discussion (this is a forum afterall). Sailboat has neither advocated nor promoted any violence or illegal activity. This is simply a discussion regarding various hypothetical situations and their would-be moral implications.

Thanks Tim. I wish people would read more carefully before they accuse people of being unbalanced and advocating violence. This thread was purely meant as an examination of when and when it’s not morally correct to disobey the law in order to oppose abortion. I brought up two possiblities off the top of my head, which were icepicking an abortion worker’s tires and hacking into a pro-choice website. These were less extreme than assasinating an abortion doc, or firebombing a clinic, but not as benign as a sit in.

I’ve never ice-picked someones tires, in fact I’m a very non-violent guy. I have no idea how to hack into a website. I am not involved in the anti-abortion movement in any way, other than an occasional candlelight vigil, rosary.

One poster here was very insulting to me, making fun of me, and denigrating me publically here in a pompous way, and now I’m being told I need therapy, which I believe is against forum rules.

This thread is a hypothetical situation and I’m in no way advocation that anyone do anything illegal, OKAY ?

 

[MariaG]

My take on it is a little different…

Personally I wouldn’t see anything wrong with say, burning an abortion clinic to the ground, so long as no one is in it at the time. I’m not saying “Do it!” or anything. I just don’t see how this would be an evil act in any sense of the term. I mean if you look at it from a certain prespective you might even be Preventing the abortion provider from sinning… I, personally, just don’t see how this is evil.

Catholig

No, I think that arson has the potential to endanger the lives of innocent firefighters. Not a good plan.

Sailboat how can arson endanger the lives of fire fighters? They only go into the building if there is someone to rescue right? If its in the middle of the night and no one is in need of saving all they’d be required to do is bring their fire truck up and dowse it (the building) with water. Not go inside…

Catholig

Arson can, however, endanger innocents by spreading to other buildings and trees. Fire is not a cut and dried affair.

There was a case in Seattle, about 12 years ago. The son of a wealthy Chinese immigrant burned down his father’s warehouse, which had no people in it. I think he did it for the insurance if I recall. 4 firefighters were killed fighting the blaze. The suspect fled to Brazil, where he was hunted down and extridited. He was convicted of murder and is still in prison I’m sure.

So, it’s never okay to start a fire, it has the potential to spread and it can hurt innocent firefighters.

Although Sailboat and Helga has already defended this very well, (Thank you!), as the wife of a firefighter I just could not stand it and had to chime in on this as well.

Fires that are set by arson are more deadly than accidental fires. They burn hotter and faster.

And guess why the firefighters died in a warehouse that was empty? Because they always have to assume there is someone in the building and search the building. Firemen never assume that a building is empty just because it is the middle of the night.

Even if they don’t have to go into the building or make it out safely does not mean no one can not get killed or injured on the outside of the building due to falling debris and other hazards.

The complete and utter lack of concern for firemen and their safety is absolutely appalling. I pray it was only due to ignorance and lack of knowledge and that these ignorant comments will never be repeated again and no one reading this ever feels it is okay to set a fire intentionally “because no one will get hurt”.

Firebombing an empty building is only less morally repugnant than abortion if one wants to say that a drunk who accidently kills someone while driving is less morally repugnant than someone who does it intentionally. Both are still evil.

 

[trogiah]

You could not be more wrong. Abortions happens because of the coarsening of our Culture since the intoduction of the pill in the late 1960s …

I know that statistics before Roe v Wade are sketchy at best but I believe abortions happened long before the 1960’s. I don’t suppose there will ever be a way to determine what the rates of abortion were before then.

Read Humanae Vitae and you will see that the Pope laid out in great detail exactly how this was going to lead to higher abortion rates, higher illegitimacy and an overall slide in the respect for life.

I don’t dispute the idea that freely available contraception can contribute to the idea that sex is primarily for fun and that the “unwanted consequence of pregnancy” can be avoided if you want.

Abortion is NOT caused by poverty or other social conditions To say so gives aid and comfort to those who support this abject evil.

I didn’t say abortion was caused by those things. I said it was caused by primarily by feelings of desperation on the part of the pregnant woman - possibly influenced by desperate feelings of the woman’s family members. This desperation may be real or imagined. (No doubt it seems real to the woman.) We may feel sympathy for the woman or feel like telling her to get hold of herself and do the right thing. But there is no question that the driving force for abortions starts right there.

Abortion is cause by a culture that puts “me” first and denigrates the value of any life that incoveniences us. .

Yes! I agree. But I don’t see how bombing an abortion clinic or related activities would address this problem in our culture.

The FIRST step to ending abortion is for our Society to go on record that is very, very wrong and the best way to do this is ban it. Of course that wont end ALL abortion(nor has banning rape and murder eliminated those evils) but note that abortions increased 4 fold after it was leaglized in 1972-it increased 4 fold even on those States where it had already been legal. As a Society we MUST take a stand that abortion is WRONG. You dont do that via feel good programs and eduation-you do it by banning it.

This section highlights our differing views. All statistics I see indicate that abortions took a big jump right after Roe v Wade. (Of course a big jump from what remains a question) But that the rates of abortion have slowly but steadily declined virtually every year since then. This decline has happened while abortion has been legalized. It seems that making laws against abortion is not the only way to deal with it.

Also, you dismiss education rather freely. I believe the most fundamental priority of the church is to educate all in the world about God’s kingdom. This is done by teaching through word and example. It is not accomplished primarily by passing laws or by coercion of any kind.

Any law that prohibits attempts to educate about important ideas like when life begins should be ignored. Laws that prohibit actions that contribute to fear and violence should be respected.

Jim

 

[Bella3502]

You could not be more wrong. Abortions happens because of the coarsening of our Culture since the intoduction of the pill in the late 1960s . Read Humanae Vitae and you will see that the Pope laid out in great detail exactly how this was going to lead to higher abortion rates, higher illegitimacy and an overall slide in the respect for life. Abortion is NOT caused by poverty or other social conditions To say so gives aid and comfort to those who support this abject evil.

Abortion is cause by a culture that puts “me” first and denigrates the value of any life that incoveniences us. The FIRST step to ending abortion is for our Society to go on record that is very, very wrong and the best way to do this is ban it. Of course that wont end ALL abortion(nor has banning rape and murder eliminated those evils) but note that abortions increased 4 fold after it was leaglized in 1972-it increased 4 fold even on those States where it had already been legal. As a Society we MUST take a stand that abortion is WRONG. You dont do that via feel good programs and eduation-you do it by banning it.

Abortion will never be made illegal. It will never be banned.

I believe education in this matter is critical on all sides.