Ok, when we die... One Judgment? Or Two?

[NotWorthy]

Our good friend Old Scholar and I were in danger of hi-jacking another thread with the following topic:

                 Originally Posted by **NotWorthy**                     [forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4033275#post4033275)                 
             *I think you are a little mistaken in your subject of death. We have an individual judgment, where if we are deemed righteous, we will go to heaven after a little purgation process. The Judgment day that you are referring to will be the 2nd judgment when we will be re-unified with our bodies.

You are correct in your bible statement of “no one going to heaven except he who has come down from heaven”, but that was prior to our Good Lord and Savior Jesus Christ opening the pearly gates for those who are found righteous.*

Can you show me the proof of what you say? Two judgments??

So… any takers as to where the Catholic Church gets that there are two Judgments - Particular and Final?

Oh yeah, and it seems that OS is claiming that this is yet another teaching that we good ol’ Catholic have invented out of thin air:

Even your own church teaching above says that Christ’s second advent will deal with the final judgment. There is no mention in Scriture of another judgment for believers.

I can appreciate you believeing what you church teaches but it is not Scriptural.

 

[NoelFitz]

Brilliant question.

The Church teaches that there is a particular judgement for each of us after our death and also the general judgement at the end of time. However does scripture support this?

Doing a Bible search (NRSV) for judgment I found:

It was also about these that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “See, the Lord is coming with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all, and to convict everyone of all the deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” (Jude 14,15)

And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, (Heb 9:27)

But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the godless.(2 Pet 3:7)

Truly I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. (Matt 10:15)

Please see CCC 1021 and 1038.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

To deny a particular judgment would mean you would have to advocate a form of “soul sleep” where the souls of EVERYONE are either sent to a ‘waiting room’ until the Final Judgment or are annihilated and recreated at the Final Judgment.

The truth is, the Bible clearly talks about the souls of dead men in heaven, thus there must be a particular judgment before the Final Judgment (though the Final Judgment gets the most publicity). Passages like Luke 16 talk about the rich man and Lazarus where the rich man was sent to hell.

 

[NoelFitz]

CD
Our Lord also said the the Good Thief “This day you will be with me in paradise”. This implies a particular judgment.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

CD
Our Lord also said the the Good Thief “This day you will be with me in paradise”. This implies a particular judgment.

Very true. And St Paul makes mention of a group called “the saints in light” in Col 1:12.

 

[NotWorthy]

To deny a particular judgment would mean you would have to advocate a form of “soul sleep” where the souls of EVERYONE are either sent to a ‘waiting room’ until the Final Judgment or are annihilated and recreated at the Final Judgment.

This seems to be the thinking of OS, as well as a member of the Church of Christ that I work with.

they don’t believe that Heaven’s Gates are open, yet.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

This seems to be the thinking of OS, as well as a member of the Church of Christ that I work with.

they don’t believe that Heaven’s Gates are open, yet.

Yes, I suspect OS is a JW (or borderline).

There are only weak arguments Scripturally for soul sleep and annihilationism.

 

[NotWorthy]

Yes, I suspect OS is a JW (or borderline).

There are only weak arguments Scripturally for soul sleep and annihilationism.

He’s a member of the Missouri Lutheran church, if I recall correctly.

 

[NotWorthy]

BTW, we won’t be hearing from Old Scholar on this til Monday, from what he told me.

But, believe me, when he joins us, he’ll have both Scriptural Guns ‘a-blarin’!!! So we better be prepared!

 

[Catholic_Dude]

BTW, we won’t be hearing from Old Scholar on this til Monday, from what he told me.

But, believe me, when he joins us, he’ll have both Scriptural Guns ‘a-blarin’!!! So we better be prepared!

He is LCMS and questioning this doctrine? The Lutherans, esp M and W synods, are pretty orthodox on that point.

 

[Zooey]

To deny a particular judgment would mean you would have to advocate a form of “soul sleep” where the souls of EVERYONE are either sent to a ‘waiting room’ until the Final Judgment or are annihilated and recreated at the Final Judgment.

The truth is, the Bible clearly talks about the souls of dead men in heaven, thus there must be a particular judgment before the Final Judgment (though the Final Judgment gets the most publicity). Passages like Luke 16 talk about the rich man and Lazarus where the rich man was sent to hell.

That’s right!!

CD
Our Lord also said the the Good Thief “This day you will be with me in paradise”. This implies a particular judgment.

Really, this is standard, orthodox Christian doctrine. Except for the language used, sometimes, this is the way I was taught, growing up going to Free Methodist Sunday School.
I never knew people believed anything else, until I got into my teens, and was talking with people in other churches.
I mean, this is basic. Of course, there have to be both judgments: they’re both in the Bible, after all!!
I don’t know about OS. He seems to have his own ideas on a* lot* of things…

 

[NotWorthy]

Really, this is standard, orthodox Christian doctrine. Except for the language used, sometimes, this is the way I was taught, growing up going to Free Methodist Sunday School.
I never knew people believed anything else, until I got into my teens, and was talking with people in other churches.
I mean, this is basic. Of course, there have to be both judgments: they’re both in the Bible, after all!!
I don’t know about OS. He seems to have his own ideas on a* lot* of things…

Well, you know, the only way to convince him otherwise is to provide Scriptural Proof.

I’ve found that “well, that’s the way its always been taught” will simply bring on the reply from OS, “Well, if you want to listen to a man, then you belong in the RCC, I prefer to listen to the Bible”. BTW, Zooey, I know you’re not RCC, but OS may not.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Brilliant question.

The Church teaches that there is a particular judgement for each of us after our death and also the general judgement at the end of time. However does scripture support this?

Doing a Bible search (NRSV) for judgment I found:

Please see CCC 1021 and 1038.

**Neither of these have anything to say about judgment immediately after death but pertain to the resurrection day.

Read Acts 2:29 and 2:34

We are told David is dead and in the grave and has not ascended up into heaven. That alone tells us we stay in the grave until the resurrection.**

 

[Old_Scholar]

To deny a particular judgment would mean you would have to advocate a form of “soul sleep” where the souls of EVERYONE are either sent to a ‘waiting room’ until the Final Judgment or are annihilated and recreated at the Final Judgment.

The truth is, the Bible clearly talks about the souls of dead men in heaven, thus there must be a particular judgment before the Final Judgment (though the Final Judgment gets the most publicity). Passages like Luke 16 talk about the rich man and Lazarus where the rich man was sent to hell.

**It would be interesting to see what Scriptures speak of the souls of dead men in heaven??? Don’t use Revelation for this either as it is apocalyptic and futuristic.

In addition, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is just that—a parable…**

 

[Old_Scholar]

CD
Our Lord also said the the Good Thief “This day you will be with me in paradise”. This implies a particular judgment.

**And realizing how that was written, it could just as easily have been translated as:

“I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise!”

If the thief had gone to heaven when he died, then how could John have said that no one had gone to heaven except he who came down from heaven?**

 

[Old_Scholar]

Very true. And St Paul makes mention of a group called “the saints in light” in Col 1:12.

Paul here is simply addressing his epistle to the saints at Collosæ. They were all alive…

 

[Old_Scholar]

This seems to be the thinking of OS, as well as a member of the Church of Christ that I work with.

they don’t believe that Heaven’s Gates are open, yet.

We are just following Scripture that says the soul dies. Of course we all look forward to the resurrection when the soul will be raised again and this time it will be immortal.

Don’t forget that Christ Himself said that Lazarus was asleep when he was dead and before Christ resurrected him.

Then we have the Scriptures:

1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I know some of you don’t particularly care for Scripture but they are hard to ignore when they are so clear. No where in Scripture does it say any soul or person has gone to heaven already, except Christ; and by that I mean heaven where God is, not the air above the earth.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Yes, I suspect OS is a JW (or borderline).

There are only weak arguments Scripturally for soul sleep and annihilationism.

If they are weak, then they should be easy to refute… Where is your argument for going directly to heaven when we die??? Or being judged right after death; prior to the resurrection???

 

[Old_Scholar]

Well, you know, the only way to convince him otherwise is to provide Scriptural Proof.

I’ve found that “well, that’s the way its always been taught” will simply bring on the reply from OS, “Well, if you want to listen to a man, then you belong in the RCC, I prefer to listen to the Bible”. BTW, Zooey, I know you’re not RCC, but OS may not.

**After all—that’s what the Scriptures are for. That is how the heretics are contradicted and exposed. We are told to “test the teachings” to be sure they are true by going to the Scriptures. That’s how Irenæus and others refuted the heretics of those days. They had nothing else with the truth but the Scriptures.

In fact, if Zooey is not RCC, then I expect any refutations from there to be backed up with Scripture—not speculation.**

 

[NoelFitz]

OS

Thank you for your reply to me.

Luke 23:43 is in your translation:

“I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise!”

Luke 23:43 is

καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ• ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.

I would translate this:
And he said to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise”.

In 1545 Rev Fr Luther OSA translated this verse as:

L45 Luke 23:43 Und JEsus sprach zu ihm: Wahrlich, ich sage dir, heute wirst du mit mir im Paradies sein.

This agrees with all the other translations, including mine.

I enclose a number of English translations. Not one of them agrees with your translation and all agree with mine.

NAB Luke 23:43 He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

NRS Luke 23:43 He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

NAU Luke 23:43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in aParadise.”

ASV Luke 23:43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

BBE Luke 23:43 And he said to him, Truly I say to you, Today you will be with me in Paradise.

CJB Luke 23:43 Yeshua said to him, “Yes! I promise that you will be with me today in Gan-'Eden.”

CSB Luke 23:43 And He said to him, “I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise.”

DBY Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

DRA Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

ERV Luke 23:43 And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

ESV Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in aParadise.”

ETH Luke 23:43 Jeshu saith to him, Amen I say to thee, That to-day with me thou shalt be in Paradise.

GNV Luke 23:43 Then Iesus said vnto him, Verely I say vnto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.

GWN Luke 23:43 Jesus said to him, “I can guarantee this truth: Today you will be with me in paradise.”

KJG Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in 1 paradise.

KJV Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

LEW Luke 23:43 Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

MGI Luke 23:43 Jesus said to him, “*Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

MRD Luke 23:43 Jesus said to him: Verily I say to you, That this day thou shalt be with me in paradise.

NAS Luke 23:43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in aParadise.”

NET Luke 23:43 And Jesus101 said to him, "I tell you the truth,102 today103 you will be with me in paradise."104

NIB Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NIV Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

NJB Luke 23:43 He answered him, ‘In truth I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.’

NKJ Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

NLT Luke 23:43 And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

PNT Luke 23:43 And Iesus sayde vnto hym: Ueryly I say vnto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

RSV Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

RWB Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

TNT Luke 23:43 And Iesus sayde vnto him: Verely I saye vnto the to daye shalt thou be with me in Paradyse.

WEB Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Verily I say to thee, This day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

YLT Luke 23:43 and Jesus said to him, ‘Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.’